Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

Not sure on planet coords - it was mentioned a post or two ago I think.

The thought with the jump tug was that if you're using a factory ship, having it in the same system as resourcing ops is convenient but also means an enemy could find it, while if you instead keep it in deep space and jump raw resources out to it it's a lot harder to track down, if wasteful in fuel.

Though - apparently M-drives only function near stars or gravity wells? But that's not the only way our drives are weird, so.
 
Though - apparently M-drives only function near stars or gravity wells? But that's not the only way our drives are weird, so.
Mongoose traveller M-drives don't ever state that limitation, weirdly. I assume it's part of mongoose's general push to make traveller more streamlined that something like T5 which is perhaps one of the most grognardy editions ever (Affectionate). Also, update soonish.
 
Mongoose traveller M-drives don't ever state that limitation, weirdly.

They kinda do - I don't have the quotes at hand, but IIRC it's "the M-drives work worse outside of gravity wells" (not "don't work at all"). How much worse, and how necessary are some additional systems for the outside-of-g-well-maneuvers are strictly necessary wasn't clear to me (maybe it's not very consistent)
 
13-1: The Lotus Eaters
Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Oct 24, 2024 at 7:20 AM, finished with 94 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Speak Softly
    -[x] Prisoners - We should work to find a diplomatic solution to the Menorb issue. We have the reasons to believe that at least some of our crewmembers could be in Menorbs custody, rather than the Stealth Enemy's custody. We should make the situation clear with them (and at least make sure that Menorbans do not have our people). This should be backed by a passive show of force.
    -[x] send reasonably defended (meaning, able to fight-off the several stealth ships) diplomatic team to Imthe and Natoko. Discuss the Stealth Enemy with their governments, relay the info on our engahements with them. Ask them if they have information on the supposed "prison planet". Persuade their governments to send some diplomats along with ours to Menorb (to mediate), to learn how the events looked from their side. Parley for our crewpeople freedom if the Menorbans keep them.
    -[x] Keep in mind what happened in Menorb, try to persuade the locals that we are not occupiers, while still keeping our ships defended. Have the strong fleet but behave politely and unthreateningly
    -[x] Hulls - Sadly we must consider them lost to us for now.
    -[x] Enemy - We should plan to learn about who the enemy are and where did they come from. Without this info, it is useless to plan for any further steps - too many variables.
    -[x] We should construct forward basing to extend our ability to deploy far away from Home.
    -[x] we should plan to keep our own systems defended from the enemy penetration - little doubts that they would also send some scouts in our direction.
    -[x] we should upgrade the ships currently under construction with newly acquired technology. CFAs should have their computers be upgraded to handle greater software requirements and add a backup computer, replace some non combat essential crew with virtual crewmembers, add additional virtual sensor operators, upgrade the sensors, add a backup bridge that acts as a specialized control centre, add repair drones to allow for mid-combat repairs, harden electronics against EMP attack, and slightly expand the hangar space to allow for the CFAs to carry multiple unmanned sensor drones if possible. The minelayer should be modified to be entirely unmanned.
    [x] Plan: The Diplomacy, Fools!
    -[x] Prisoners - We should work to find a diplomatic solution to the Menorb issue. We have the reasons to believe that at least some of our crewmembers could be in Menorbs custody, rather than the Stealth Enemy's custody. We should make the situation clear with them (and at least make sure that Menorbans do not have our people).
    --[x] send reasonably defended (meaning, able to fight-off the several stealth ships) diplomatic team to Imthe and Natoko. Discuss the Stealth Enemy with their governments, relay the info on our engahements with them. Ask them if they have information on the supposed "prison planet". Persuade their governments to send some diplomats along with ours to Menorb (to mediate), to learn how the events looked from their side. Parley for our crewpeople freedom if the Menorbans keep them.
    --[x] Keep in mind what happened in Menorb, try to persuade the locals that we are not occupiers, while still keeping our ships defended. Have the strong fleet but behave politely and unthreateningly
    -[x] Hulls - Sadly we must consider them lost to us for now.
    -[x] Enemy - We should plan to learn about who the enemy are and where did they come from. Without this info, it is useless to plan for any further steps - too many variables.
    --[x] we should plan to keep our own systems defended from the enemy penetration - little doubts that they would also send some scouts in our direction.
    [X] Plan: They Must Learn Our Peaceful Ways...
    -[X] Prisoners - The enemy presumably has tens of HSWS personnel captured during battle:
    --[X] We must recover them by force, using the Military Assault Transport.
    -[X] Hulls - The enemy has at least one other ship captured intact, and as many as three:
    --[X] Sadly we must consider them lost to us for now.
    -[X] Enemy - The enemy system will be found and their shipyards identified:
    --[X] We should plan a containment operation to push back the enemy.
    [x] plan how about that mysterious prison planet?
    -[x] send reinforced expeditionary fleet to "prison" world with MAT to effect rapid negotiation, possible prison break or heist. We want actionable intelligence on wtf is up in the north and to free prisoners/disrupt operations if this world is operated by stealth ship operators. If we raid, then additional secondary objectives: steal tech, provoke the stealth ship operators into a fleet engagement if the prison planet is important to them. Mission to begin as soon as sufficient forces and especially sensor upgrades are available.
    -[x] check in with northern diplomats by courier boat if we have not been doing so already. diplomats are to sound out natoko and inthe for stealth ship influence and mediation with menorb, appraise those govs of our operations in menorb if safe to do so
    -[x] war games to test defences of home, cassalon, xyri. invest in more defences if we can. scare those govs into more funding if necessary.
    -[x] try to get crew back from menorb diplomatically, but don't prioritise as unlikely to be successful. Hulls to be accepted as lost
    -[x] assess caturix for utility vs stealth ship operators. is it worth modernising and redeploying?


Prisoners - The enemy presumably has tens of HSWS personnel captured during battle: We should work to find a diplomatic solution to the Menorb issue.
Hulls - The enemy has at least one other ship captured intact, and as many as three:
Sadly we must consider them lost to us for now.
Enemy - The enemy system will be found and their shipyards identified:
We should plan to learn about who the enemy are and where did they come from. Without this info, it is useless to plan for any further steps - too many variables.

Available Budget:
882.1375MCr
Current Dockyard Usage: 12,000/21,500Dtons + 7,400Dtons in civilian yards
Current Pilot Usage: 85/100



Scouting Flotilla
In the middle of the 19th year, Vice-Marshall Adabayo's task force sets out North with a view to finding the enemy. While the force is limited in its capabilities by those of its escorts, it still goes north and arrives at Deeper Hope on 19y06m02w and briefly joins up with the larger force there before heading on. With full fuel tanks and full stores, the force heads for Natoko with the intent to stop briefly to check in with the diplomats on the planet and ensure they have their new orders and new information.

- Sector 01,-03 - Natoko
Survey Index:
10
System Code: C8879AB-9
Star(s): Type K Star with a distant companion
Orbitals: 01-03-1 (Planetoid Belt), 01-03-2 (Small Gas Giant), 01-03-3 (Low Density Terrestrial), 01-03-4 (Small Gas Giant), 01-03-5 (Rocky Planet), 01-03-6 (Rocky Planet), 01-03-7 (Rocky Planet), 01-03-8 (Rocky Planet), 01-03-9 (Planetoid Belt)
Comments: Another unusually welcoming planet, 01-03 or 'Natoko' is a heavily populated, technologically advanced system that welcomes our Scouts and invites them to stay for longer than is long enough to assess the various planets. Our scouts do accept a full tank of fuel as a gift, as well as photographs with various senior figures and at least one state dinner with the planet's dictator.

This is immediately halted by two things; First, the diplomatic team on planet has been arrested and imprisoned by the government of Natoko, and second, the government has transmitted a demand that the task force leave immediately. Adabayo begins the first in a series of communications, attempting to negotiate the release of the diplomatic team. Meanwhile, the MMS opened their observatories and began deep space scans, their other sensors unfolded and hunting.

It takes three weeks, and the detection of several jump flashes in and out of the system, but Vice-Marshall Adabayo nonetheless manages to secure the return of the diplomatic hostages in return for the promise of no hostile action against Natoko proper. With a deep distaste for the situation and a growing hunch, as soon as the HSWS Henshen has the prisoners aboard the entire Task Force jumps away - and heads for Inthe.

- Sector 00,-03 - Inthe
Survey Index:
10
System Code: B575776-9
Star(s): Type M star with Type K close companion
Orbitals: -01-03-1 (Planetoid Belt), -01-03-2 (Rocky Planet), -01-03-3 (Rocky Planet), -01-03-4 (Small Gas Giant), -01-03-5 (Small Gas Giant)
Comments: Despite the multiple states that dot the surface of Inthe, the planet is remarkably harmonious and welcoming at first glance. Humans - or, at least, members of humaniti - welcome our scouts with gifts and local fruits and invitations to stay and really experience a variety of local cultures. They cannot, of course - they have a mission to complete - but their reports are glowing and positive.

In Inthe, Adabayo finds another set of surprises. He and his task force are not ambushed or taken by surprise but they do detect several small ships around the main world with their transponders lit up bright. They're stealth ships, the same kind that ambushed Omarov, the same kind that Gebara had engaged succesfully. Adabayo, without the strength of arms to engage them successfully, instead chooses to remain in the deep outer system and transmit similar messages as were sent in Natoko. It doesn't take long before the diplomatic team that had been assigned to Inthe were on a shuttle and headed towards the task force.

Adabayo has all his available sensors cranked wide open, power flowing, in case the hostile force chooses to come creeping in along side it. Somehow the diplomats are delivered about the MMS HSWS Pushan without incident and Adabayo's task force jumps away without a backwards glance.



The return of the diplomatic teams from the North - bar those on Menorb - and the actions of Vice-Marshall Adabayo gives a more significant insight into what exactly has happened. It is revealed through a series of debriefings and interviews that as soon as the diplomatic teams were left behind to conduct operations without contact with Home, they were introduced to the real power bloc present.

Lydia, and thus the Lydians, are a group of humans from further North than any of the three planets currently known. Technologically advanced, vicious and indifferent to the rights of other members of humaniti, they have created a protected cordon around their own star system in order to ensure their safety. They are disinterested in diplomacy and would much rather be left alone - and consider penetration into the space of their 'subjects' as not being left alone.

Our returning diplomats have a simple message for Home and the HSWS. If they would prefer to avoid fighting and casualties, stay out of Lydian claimed space.

The HSWS already has plans to return to Lydian space, especially to recover those diplomats and sailors potentially standed in Menorb. Should this still go ahead?
[ ] Yes, absolutely.
[ ] No, we should pull back on our plans for now.
[ ] Other - Write in.
The HSWS would like to plan for forwards basing and deep space/unnocupied system basing. How should these be designed?
[ ] Automated platforms for basing, fuelling and recreation.
[ ] Semi Automated platforms for defence, mining and more.
[ ] Non-automated platforms - we cannot trust a hackable computer.
[ ] Other - write in.
In order to adapt the CFA to the new standards, it will require some systems being removed or readjusted. What should be cut back on?
[ ] Crew Spaces and comfort
[ ] Drives and fuel
[ ] Other - Write in.
 
They kinda do - I don't have the quotes at hand, but IIRC it's "the M-drives work worse outside of gravity wells" (not "don't work at all"). How much worse, and how necessary are some additional systems for the outside-of-g-well-maneuvers are strictly necessary wasn't clear to me (maybe it's not very consistent)

It does. Page 224 of the World Builder's Handbook.
I suppose what I should have said is "they don't make much of it in the core books, unlike T5 where it's in the core book and an important part of ship building"
 
These guys don't get to roll in, blow up our mining station, and then tell us to fuck off.

Although I think it's going to take us a few years to build up to the point where I'd feel confident at smashing them. Then again, they did choose to avoid contact with our initial Menorb force after a few exchanges so it's possible that they don't have the depth of forces.
 
So I think there's one critical question that we need to answer before we do anything else - if we kick the Lydians out of a northern system, will the inhabitants welcome us as liberators, or fight back? Are they happy or unhappy with the status quo?

These guys don't get to roll in, blow up our mining station, and then tell us to fuck off.

Although I think it's going to take us a few years to build up to the point where I'd feel confident at smashing them. Then again, they did choose to avoid contact with our initial Menorb force after a few exchanges so it's possible that they don't have the depth of forces.
Strongly agreed, conditional on the answer to the above question being that the northern polities don't like the Lydians. Otherwise, it might be too big a task.

I agree that it'll probably take a few years. My thoughts in the interim:
  • We need better intel, both about the systems we know and the Lydians. Do they have significant depth of forces? Where would we even target? Do they have other ship classes? Could the locals be counted on to rise up if we control the orbitals?
  • Missions to Menorb should be to retrieve our diplomatic team, as well as to possibly embed intelligence assets (either spy sensors or people, although I'd prefer the former).
  • If we're convinced this is going to be a long war, then I think we should pull the trigger on the "gen 4" ships that make use of new hull designs. The CFA is good, but there's a lot of new improvements (especially with regards to hulls). As such, we should purchase the weapons and drive techs from the Aslan.
  • Similarly, we should come up with an idea of what we want the fleet to look like in, say, five years and build to that specifically. That way we can best optimize the use of shipyard space and budgets.
  • Lastly, it sounds like the Lydians piss off their neighbours. We should ask said neighbours if they can help us, in exchange for us dealing with the Lydian problem.
 
I would rather not go for full-scale war at this point, but I do not see how we can avoid at least a substantial expedition to Menorb with the objective of getting back our people.
 
Wasn't this conflict all sparked off when the Lydians arrived at our station demanding repairs? Someone else is obviously hostile towards them - the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[ ] Crew Spaces and comfort

There isn't really anything else I'd want to cut from the CFA, I'd like to avoid reducing it's offensive power or versatility.
 
So I think there's one critical question that we need to answer before we do anything else - if we kick the Lydians out of a northern system, will the inhabitants welcome us as liberators, or fight back? Are they happy or unhappy with the status quo?
They would be afraid that Lydians would return and would vent their anger on them.

Otherwise it's probably could go either way - maybe some planet has unpopular regime whose main line of holding on power is "only we can keep the Aliens from violently suppressing our world". These people would not be happy.
In some other cases - maybe they would be.

As such, we should purchase the weapons and drive techs from the Aslan.

We'll maybe would have a tech roll/improvement soon, in the beginning of the new decade.
 
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So when will ya'll feel confident actually responding aggressively to the endless stream of provocations?
Given it currently seems that everyone around us sees us as weak willed push overs and we really haven't shown otherwise.
 
@4WheelSword How much tonnage do we need to free up for the modifications to the CFA?
So the request was for:
CFAs should have their computers be upgraded to handle greater software requirements and add a backup computer, replace some non combat essential crew with virtual crewmembers, add additional virtual sensor operators, upgrade the sensors, add a backup bridge that acts as a specialized control centre, add repair drones to allow for mid-combat repairs, harden electronics against EMP attack, and slightly expand the hangar space to allow for the CFAs to carry multiple unmanned sensor drones if possible.
Upgrading sensors would probably require aboutttt 100 tons all told? If you added everything (which you should want to).
Repair drones are another 30 tons.
Multiple sensor drones would require anything from like... 25-200 tons depending on what is intended by 'uncrewed sensor drones'.
 
So, assuming.... 180/200 tons all together.

Easiest thing for the sensor drones would be to replace one boarding shuttle with one or two (make 'em 25 tons each).

Finding 130 tons is gonna be tough. Easiest would be making our crews barracks it up but IDK if I wanna do that. We could drop the drop tanks for now and get 26 tons. We could also strip out the laser barbettes and get 50 tons.

We're gonna lose something and it might have to be crew comfort...
 
They would be afraid that Lydians would return and would vent their anger on them.

Otherwise it's probably could go either way - maybe some planet has unpopular regime whose main line of holding on power is "only we can keep the Aliens from violently suppressing our world". These people would not be happy.
In some other cases - maybe they would be.



We'll maybe would have a tech roll/improvement soon, in the beginning of the new decade.
Yeah, which is why I'm hoping we know enough from our diplomats. If the local population is amenable, we could relatively quickly fight off the Lydians (we basically managed it around Menorb), then set up a lot of defences; we can then use that as a staging point to choke the Lydians off. If, however, we need to fight off the forces of Menorb, Inthe, Natoko, and Lydia, then it might not be doable.
We'll maybe would have a tech roll/improvement soon, in the beginning of the new decade.
I'd rather get as much tech before a tech roll, then. I don't think the Aslan have anything above TL10, so if we're TL10 across the board and get a tech breakthrough, it's better for us.
Can our ships share sensor data? When one CFA detects and sees clearly the enemy ship, can it relay the targeting data to the other cFA, which did'nt detect that same ship?
Yes, within some limits. If a sensor drone acquires a target, it can share that with a bunch of CFAs within range (with the number limited by computer bandwidth). Those CFAs cannot then share the sensor data with each other unless they themselves acquire the spacecraft on their own sensors.

Anyhow, first draft of a plan, with a LOT of write-ins:

[] Plan: Circle Four Service Replenishment Program
-[] Attempt to peacefully retrieve the diplomatic team from Menorb. While there, try and deploy stealthed spy sensors to collect information on Menorb, and if possible, embed clandestine intelligence assets. Also attempt to determine more about Menorb's willingness to voluntarily side with the Lydians after the Lydians have been ousted.
-[] Stations should be designed of standard "cells" that can link together. Fuelling, replenishment, mining, and manufacturing cells should be fully automated. Defence and recreation cells should be semi-automated.
-[] Purchase TL10 weapons and drives from the Aslan, in a repeat of the previous deal. Ask for a discount because we're going to be using it to deal with the Lydians, who they have had negative encounters with in the past.
-[] See if anyone else is willing to give us anything because they hate the Lydians and would be happy to see us fight them.
-[] Create a new organizational unit of the FLF based around a half-platooon.
-[] Reduce the number of crew through automation and the use of a half-platoon instead of a full platoon of FLF if necessary. Scale medical bays, armouries, accomodations, assault shuttles, and common areas to the reduced crew in order to free up the necessary tonnage.
-[] If possible, integrate improvements in weapons into the CFA Flt. IIs to further free up tonnage.
-[] Impress upon the Citizen's Council that we want to begin the buildup necessary to defeat the Lydians once and for all. They've been asking for us to fight the war, and this is it. Point out that, while it will take years and much sacrifice, following the liberation of the northern polities, there will be vast new markets for Home's goods to be sold at and we will make lots of money off of our investment.
-[] Clandestinely reach out to the Daughters to gain their support in this war.
-[] In addition to the defensive and logistics/R&R/manufacturing stations, begin drafting construction of a pair of new warships. The Cruiser, Fast Escort is a CFA-D Flt II that takes advantage of new technology to improve capabilities and a buffered planetoid hull to increase durability and reduce cost. The Cruiser, Large Flagship provides command facilities for a formation and mounts LMDCs in turrets while providing extensive PD. These two hulls will serve as the basis for all other classes in this size range, including a new patrol carrier.

Edit: As for the eventual disposition of the HSWS:
  • I'd establish a standardized defensive force for rear areas, consisting of a defensive monitor, a minelayer, and a pair of obsolete ICs or frigates that are refit to act more as support vessels. These would be placed in:
    • Home
    • Cassalon
    • Xyri
    • Heimdall
    • Shambala
    • Deeper Hope
    • Hexos, if the government agrees
    • Nova Refugio, if the government agrees
  • Our fleet is then concentrated into a single deathstack (that can split in half if need be). This would have, at minimum:
    • 2x 6,000 ton flagship cruisers
    • 3x patrol carriers
    • 15x CFAs or CFEs, disposed in a triangular arrangement (three ships at each point of a tetrahedron centred on the fleet, and a fifth triad in the centre with the fleet to reinforce any of the corners).
  • A logistics station is built around Deeper Hope.
  • An automated mining station is built around Deep Hope.
 
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So, the CFE is basically an evolution of the CFA design? Main issue with the planetoid hull idea is that we can't then add things like stealth, reflec, etc, if we want to. Although if we don't, I guess it would work fine.

On the other hand, I like the sleek lines of our non-planetoid ships... aesthetics...

I feel like if we're going to keep building patrol carriers, we should stick with the hull design we already have since that will mean savings on time and cost to get it out the door and I don't know that switching to a different hull design will get us much improvement. I feel like Cruiser, Large Command Vessel (CLCV) works too.

Would also prefer to maintain the full FLF platoon, if we can. Square platoons are so oooooold.
 
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I would kinda like it if the citizens council forced the issue and we just have to fight the war with the army we've got, or we are given a 1 year prep window then war.

Otherwise I feel like the thread is never going to actually commit because war is generally a terrible idea for everyone and there will always be some reason to put it off.

As for targets, the obvious target remains the "prison" planet, likely full of political dissidents who will have actionable intelligence and who we could use to increase our chances of regime change in the client states and Lydia.
 
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