Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Much more flexible targeting options, dial a yield.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Also tonnage. Mass drivers only come in 50 and 100 tons bays, you can get missile barbettes and turrets/racks for much less.
I've crunched some of the math and if we want any kind of efficient deployment of shuttles and to carry a whole battalion, we're looking at a 6k ton vessel, probably. 3k simply doesn't have the space for everything. For 3k we can probably squeeze in a two company / half battalion lander, maybe with a wing or pair of fighter-bombers.
Math wise, for a five company battalion we need 1200 tons of barracks space alone, plus the hangar and probably a launch tube so it doesn't take forever to deploy the assault units.
EDIT: A battalion deployment + squadron of fighter bombers with magazines, staterooms and barracks, clocks in at about 5k tons, based on Station/4Wheel.
So a batt. deployment lander is gonna end up 6k+.
I think it's worth building, to be clear, just wanna sort out what we can do.
I've crunched some of the math and if we want any kind of efficient deployment of shuttles and to carry a whole battalion, we're looking at a 6k ton vessel, probably. 3k simply doesn't have the space for everything. For 3k we can probably squeeze in a two company / half battalion lander, maybe with a wing or pair of fighter-bombers.
Math wise, for a five company battalion we need 1200 tons of barracks space alone, plus the hangar and probably a launch tube so it doesn't take forever to deploy the assault units.
EDIT: A battalion deployment + squadron of fighter bombers with magazines, staterooms and barracks, clocks in at about 5k tons, based on Station/4Wheel.
So a batt. deployment lander is gonna end up 6k+.
I think it's worth building, to be clear, just wanna sort out what we can do.
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Hmm. I think building 2x 3k tonnage vessels are a better option than a huge 6k tonnage vessel. 3k vessels are much easier for us to build, since they wont use all our yardspace. We are also not in a hurry to invade anyone any time soon, so we could build just a 3k vessel initially to keep the Council happy and then expand it to two later.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
To be fair, the battalion vehicle would be very good at what it does. And efficient. It might be worth going for it for the future flexibility it would provide, although I'm not opposed to to building individual company or a half battalion carriers either.
That would be my preferred solution as well. If anything, I'd think about cutting fighter-bombers and just doing ortillery, it should save up on space and it would still allow building dedicated carriers later.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
If we build the smaller design I'd explicitly call it a half battalion carriers just to make sure we squeeze everyone in. I am, admittedly, a bit partial to an all-in-one battalion carrier that can act as an orbital command post, provide fire support, and some air support. Even if it is big.
Might mean we need to reorg to like a four company structure though.
Kinda like the full battalion carriers, even if it is expensive... although again, depends on what we want the FLF to do. Do we want them to land a whole battalion somewhere? Or do we want to use them in company packets to do stuff like boarding operations and policing?
We should probably define our use case before we figure out a design. So far we haven't had a call for an invasion of another world (and even if we did, a single battalion isn't useful for that). Our most extreme use case was wanting a full company to seize a large vessel. Would being able to land a battalion be very useful? Yes.
Just not sure when or where we will want to do that.
Might mean we need to reorg to like a four company structure though.
Kinda like the full battalion carriers, even if it is expensive... although again, depends on what we want the FLF to do. Do we want them to land a whole battalion somewhere? Or do we want to use them in company packets to do stuff like boarding operations and policing?
We should probably define our use case before we figure out a design. So far we haven't had a call for an invasion of another world (and even if we did, a single battalion isn't useful for that). Our most extreme use case was wanting a full company to seize a large vessel. Would being able to land a battalion be very useful? Yes.
Just not sure when or where we will want to do that.
You wouldn't really need a full company for routine boarding inspection / customs work. Anything beyond that could be served by a MMV's embarked platoon.
We don't really need the FLF to conquer / occupy an entire planet's surface - yet. With space superiority and ortillery we would only need the FLF to occupy and hold key locations such as vital infrastructure, ground to space ordinance (presuming this is a thing), spaceports, etc.
These would all be targets that would probably be a bit beyond a single company to storm and hold, but would be about right for a battalion.
A battalion would also be able to absord many more casualties and remain combat effective compared to a single company.
Such a ship would have been very useful during the most recent unpleasantness on S'Taxu. I think it's an essential requirement for our forces to have the capability to rapidly deploy a battalion on short notice to keep our neighbours on their best behaviour.
We don't really need the FLF to conquer / occupy an entire planet's surface - yet. With space superiority and ortillery we would only need the FLF to occupy and hold key locations such as vital infrastructure, ground to space ordinance (presuming this is a thing), spaceports, etc.
These would all be targets that would probably be a bit beyond a single company to storm and hold, but would be about right for a battalion.
A battalion would also be able to absord many more casualties and remain combat effective compared to a single company.
Such a ship would have been very useful during the most recent unpleasantness on S'Taxu. I think it's an essential requirement for our forces to have the capability to rapidly deploy a battalion on short notice to keep our neighbours on their best behaviour.
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I'm not good at art, but I guess it is the thought that counts?
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
A company is a decent raiding force for trans-orbital operations; given control of orbital space and the ability to interdict enemy aircraft and heavy equipment from orbit, it can probably seize and destroy something like a POW camp, a presidential bunker, or a surface-to-orbit weapons site. But it lacks the staying power to do much more or to stay on the surface particularly long in the face of active hostiles. A battalion has more options, more firepower, and some staying power for seizing and holding a location against attempts to retake it.
Though I don't think we should be thinking of the FLF as an invasion force for some time yet. If we have to invade something, the FLF will be for seizing a landing zone; we'll have to get the Home Militia involved to provide armor and bodies for real heavy combat.
Though I don't think we should be thinking of the FLF as an invasion force for some time yet. If we have to invade something, the FLF will be for seizing a landing zone; we'll have to get the Home Militia involved to provide armor and bodies for real heavy combat.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, I think we should stick with the company lander for now. We'll probably want it regardless for the sake of taking orbitals and stuff. Was also thinking any possible future battalion lander might want to be able to land itself, both to act as a FOB and so we don't need a shuttle capable of carrying heavier vehicles. Which isn't really necessary right now.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
As much as I like the battalion lander, for our purposes right now a company carrier seems like the best bang for buck, considering what we use the FLF for (boarding operations to take orbitals, raids, etc.).
I'm open to being persuaded, though.
EDIT: For the courier, I'm thinking lots of jump range and some token PD, maybe in-system speed. It'd be nice to have some space for some VIP personnel. But mostly I imagine it as a mailboat.
I'm open to being persuaded, though.
EDIT: For the courier, I'm thinking lots of jump range and some token PD, maybe in-system speed. It'd be nice to have some space for some VIP personnel. But mostly I imagine it as a mailboat.
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Proposed HSWS Rank Insignia for Enlisted and Officers.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
Proposed HSWS Rank Insignia for Enlisted and Officers. Ranks are featured on both collars and sleeves of dress, duty and combat uniforms with Department Colors as background. Combat Uniforms/Spacesuits will have dull or blackened insignia for security and visibility issues. All Uniform Sleeves feature the Service Insignia. Duty Uniforms will feature mission and vessel/station patches on the sleeves while Dress Uniforms will have Mission/Campaign ribbons and Medals on the chest.
E-2: Spacer
One Red Solid Circle outlined in silver.
E-3: Lance Air(wo)man
Two Red Solid Circles outlined in silver.
E-4: Senior Spacer
Three Red Solid Circles outlined in silver.
E-5: Sergeant
One Red Solid Diamond outlined in silver.
E-6:Flight Sergeant
Two Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
E-7:Technical Sergeant
Three Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
E-8:Chief Star Sergeant (Highest Non-Commissioned Rank).
Four Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
O-1: Lieutenant (Requires University Degree and Officer Training Courses)
One Red Pentagon outlined in gold.
O-2: Flight Lieutenant
Two Red Pentagons outlined in gold.
O-3: Flight Captain
Three Red Pentagons outlined in gold.
O-4: Major
One Red Parallelogram outlined in gold.
O-5: Lieutenant-Colonel
Two Red Parallelograms outlined in gold.
O-6: Colonel
Three Red Parallelograms outlined in gold.
O-7: Flight Commodore
One Red Star outlined in platinum.
O-8: Vice-Marshal
Two Red Stars outlined in platinum.
O-9: Marshal
Three Red Stars outlined in platinum.
O-10:Chief Marshal
Four Red Stars on outlined in platinum..
O-11:Marshal of the Home Space Warfare Service
Five Red Stars outlined in platinum.
Department Colors.
Tactical/Weapons: Dark Blue
Navigation: Blue
Logistics: Green
Medical; Purple
Engineering: Gold
Landing/Rangers: Orange
E-2: Spacer
One Red Solid Circle outlined in silver.
E-3: Lance Air(wo)man
Two Red Solid Circles outlined in silver.
E-4: Senior Spacer
Three Red Solid Circles outlined in silver.
E-5: Sergeant
One Red Solid Diamond outlined in silver.
E-6:Flight Sergeant
Two Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
E-7:Technical Sergeant
Three Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
E-8:Chief Star Sergeant (Highest Non-Commissioned Rank).
Four Red Solid Diamonds outlined in silver.
O-1: Lieutenant (Requires University Degree and Officer Training Courses)
One Red Pentagon outlined in gold.
O-2: Flight Lieutenant
Two Red Pentagons outlined in gold.
O-3: Flight Captain
Three Red Pentagons outlined in gold.
O-4: Major
One Red Parallelogram outlined in gold.
O-5: Lieutenant-Colonel
Two Red Parallelograms outlined in gold.
O-6: Colonel
Three Red Parallelograms outlined in gold.
O-7: Flight Commodore
One Red Star outlined in platinum.
O-8: Vice-Marshal
Two Red Stars outlined in platinum.
O-9: Marshal
Three Red Stars outlined in platinum.
O-10:Chief Marshal
Four Red Stars on outlined in platinum..
O-11:Marshal of the Home Space Warfare Service
Five Red Stars outlined in platinum.
Department Colors.
Tactical/Weapons: Dark Blue
Navigation: Blue
Logistics: Green
Medical; Purple
Engineering: Gold
Landing/Rangers: Orange
- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Messing around with this.
Assuming a "large" ship; i.e., one where we have a surplus of hardpoints and weapons bays, twin missiles mounted in turrets provide an order of magnitude more impact on soft targets per ton than any other option. They're also useful in that they're individually the lowest damage per shot, meaning we can strike precision targets in close proximity to friendly units. There is a downside to them in that they have a limited magazine depth, but given how lightweight missiles are, we could carry a LOT of them.
However, with how armour works in traveller (it subtracts from the damage dealt), a heavily-armoured target might be able to shrug off hits from missiles for a long time. For that, we'd want to have a single, high-damage weapon. IMO, @Tallhart's proposed mix of a mass driver (for cracking bunkers) and missiles (for maximizing damage per ton of weapons system) is pretty optimal. I'm not a fan of torpedoes due to them being very heavy, and particle beams cause a radiation hazard to the ground troops.
That said, I'd also suggest we include:
- A field hospital aboard the ship capable of handling ~15% of a battalion's worth of casualties, so that we can hopefully avoid people dying due to a lack of care and can use the FLF assault ship as a place to evacuate casualties to
- A small cargo hold (<50 tons?) in case we need to bring something unique along for the mission
- A small number of air/rafts that are modified to act as unarmed scouts or for casevac of 1-3 people.
The problem is that if the FLF ship is a specialized vessel with things like orbital bombardment capability, it's not economical for boarding operations to take orbitals; we should be sending MMVs to do that. We also haven't seen an orbital station that's large enough to justify a full Coy. yet. If we're purely focused on boarding operations to take orbitals or commando raids, we should be looking at something that's a lot smaller.
The advantage to a battalion is that it's a proper unit of maneuver. With just a rifle company, you're going to be missing heavier stuff, but it's possible for a battalion to deploy with its own artillery and other important things. If we're pressed to land on a body where we're going to be doing significant fighting that requires either a company or battalion, IMO it's better to concentrate our forces and overmatch the enemy's forces. We lose out on flexibility, but we preserve more of our strength, and by the time we want to conduct multiple landings at once on targets that are well outside the range that a single ship can project power, we'll probably have more ships.
I could see an argument for splitting the battalion in half over two ships but I still think that a company is an awkard in-between size where it's too small to be useful when doing a major landing, but too large for boarding actions.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I agree with most of your assessment on this.
Only problem with casevac/scouts is that we'll need even more tonnage (or we could scrap the integrated fighter-bomber wing). But I like all of that as a concept.
Tonnage for scouts is hopefully low. An Air/raft hangar is 4 tons according to the Traveller rulebook, and if we have, say, six of them, that's only 24 tons; a pittance for a ship this large. Apparently making it air-tight increases cost and reduces speed and agility, but doesn't increase tonnage, so if we're willing to spend...
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Might as well spend on it; we'll be saving money by not putting P-Beams on the lander.
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
- Location
- Misery!
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Happy to back this if it becomes a formal OPLAN-my one thought is we want to add:
[ ] Carrying priority cargo and passengers between systems.
That way, our courier becomes a diplomatic bag as well, good to, for example, quickly and quietly bring diplomats between Aslan clans without upsetting proper honor.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Also handy for when we don't need the full pomp and circumstance of the big diplo ship.
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Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
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@Tallhart Looking over math from @4WheelSword and @Rat King , I think we'll want to up the tonnage on your carrier to 5K or 6K-beyond that the design is aces from my view-make sure to tack on a full field trauma ward, though, so we don't have to start building hospital ships (yet) 
!
!
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
Tiny, tiny ships.
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
- Location
- Misery!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmmm... I'd say we could spare a little room for cargo, for things like sealed paper orders, a big bag of DVDs with data, ect. I'm not sold on it carrying people though. It'll seems as if we want to stealthily insert agents. Diplomats go on diplomatic ships, marines go on landers, passangers go on commercial liners. Put in more fuel and better engines instead.
Definitely agree on all of this, onboard hospital facilities to handle casualties taken and shuttles to casevac them are required. Will amend my plan.
Happy to make the change.