Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Added; let me know if you think that fits.
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
Added; let me know if you think that fits.
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Intra-system civilian spacecraft are incredibly cheap. A rough mockup I just made of a minelayer with a 1-month endurance capable of dropping 5,000 mines in a single trip costs only 132.8 MCr (which would make it cheaper than the 500-ton deep space surveyors), and weighs just over 3500 tons, of which 95% is the mines. Asking Cassalon's civilian shipyards to squeeze one in whenever they have a spare month seems like it won't be an issue. Sure, the crew will be miserable (it's using a reduced-size bridge and double-bunking the crew, with zero amenities), but even if we send it out one month, give the crew two months vacation, and repeat, that means a single ship can keep 20,000 mines floating around in the system.
That said, I assume that any overflow capacity will go towards making the minefields stronger, so specifying a weaker field around gas giants now isn't a huge issue.
[X] OPLAN: Caltrop
Edit: messed up my spreadsheet, it's actually 173.7 MCr and 3614 tons.
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- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] OPLAN: Caltrop
On a different note, I did some math, and I've drawn up a... fairly expensive vessel, but one that I think is rather worthwhile:
As for what this would be useful for:
| Tonnage | Cost | Power | Crew | |
| Jump Net | 100 | 30 | ||
| Docking Clamp | 50 | 8 | ||
| External carrying capacity | 10000 | |||
| M-1 Drive | 175.8033 | 351.6067 | 1758.033 | |
| J-1 Drive | 4395.083 | 1758.033 | ||
| Holographic Bridge | 60 | 109.8771 | ||
| Computer (jump contol spec) | 67.74 | |||
| Mil. Sensors | 2 | 4.1 | 2 | |
| Crew | 194 | |||
| Double-bunked staterooms | 388 | 48.5 | ||
| Common Areas | 97 | 9.7 | ||
| Jump tankage | 1758.033 | |||
| Fuel tankage | 51 | |||
| Fusion Plant | 503.4133 | 251.7067 | ||
| Dispersed lightweight hull | 142.1313 | 1516.067 | ||
| Total | 7580.333 | 1023.362 | 5034.133 | 194 |
As for what this would be useful for:
- The specification this is designed to meet is to be able to take a 10,000 ton spacecraft and jump it 1 hex away. Right now, a ship with damage that prevents it from jumping is basically a write-off if there isn't a shipyard in the system. This lets us slowly bring a damaged ship back home so that it can be repaired and put back into service, which is going to be an important capability if we intend to fight a prolonged war that isn't entirely fought around our three "core" worlds. I scaled it to 10,000 tons because I think that's a reasonable upper bound for ships we'll be building in the near future, but that's arbitrary. It'd really, really suck if we lost a 10,000 ton capital ship because it suffered minor damage to the J-drive but we had no way of getting it to a shipyard and had to scuttle it.
- This jump tug means we can also carry monolithic military or manufacturing stations to distant hexes instead of having to break them into small chunks that fit aboard a conveyor. That's advantageous if we want to rapidly deploy a station somewhere, such as in response to escalating tensions over a border system.
- If we load up 10,000 tons of mines, we can drop them off at a spaceport and then have a much cheaper minelayer distribute them around the system.
- This can deliver 9200 tons of fuel to a forward depot. If we're routinely using a staging point, this can quickly establish a refuelling station there and keep it topped up, extending our ability to project power.
- We could make an 8240-ton passenger "pod" that this carries around, giving us the ability to deploy 4,000 FLF troops somewhere (as long as there's no risk of them getting shot at). Similarly, it could be used for a hospital, disaster relief, etc.
- If we already have orbital supremacy in a system and need to perform bombardment of a planet, this could haul in torpedoes that warships use to bombard a planet.
- If we have nothing else we need to use this for at the moment, 10,000 tons of "common manufactured goods" has a base price of 200 MCr, meaning this'll pay itself off in approximately six trade trips if all goes well and I'm understanding trade mechanics.
I like the idea, but it should probably be a smaller tug. At the moment, our largest ship is a single Interstellar Monitor, displacing 6000 tons. Our largest planned ships are the Escort Carriers, displacing 5500. I want us to build capital ships, but it doesn't seem like enough other voters agree, and even if we were to build a single >6kt ship I'm not sure the edge case of that one ship being mostly functional but not being able to jump and not fixable with supplies brought in would justify the extra tonnage. It would take several large ships to justify a large-ship-tug investment.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I'd like to build some proper cap ships, but worry about numbers / cost.
- Location
- Here, there, everywhere.
I want to build capital ships as well though I don't think my ideals for it will be the same as some might want. I'd like something along the same line as the monitor, massive armor and massive firepower meant for brawling. Though I imagine most would rather spring for something that can launch an absolutely absurd amount of missiles per volley from long range.
We don't really have weapons for capital ships yet, our best "brawling" weapon tech - mass driver canons - will mature on TL10, providing us proper light and heavy cannons. Similarly with barbette weapons. And the spinal weapons are also "protype", meaning way too heavy.
Before that, we can refit monitor with missiles and torps, and/or build a "flight II" version of ship of that size (with "military" armour).
upd
We can built a Capital Carrier though. I think our max ship size grew to around 10-11k tons.
(but let's probably refit the old Monitor first. I despair to learn how many years the Capital Carrier would take to be born.)
Before that, we can refit monitor with missiles and torps, and/or build a "flight II" version of ship of that size (with "military" armour).
upd
We can built a Capital Carrier though. I think our max ship size grew to around 10-11k tons.
(but let's probably refit the old Monitor first. I despair to learn how many years the Capital Carrier would take to be born.)
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I'm bringing this up again because with our recent budget increase cost is no longer the limiting factor, tonnage is (and larger ships seem to be a more efficient use of tonnage). Build times are going to be a problem, but not an insurmountable one. The average IRL aircraft carrier takes 4+ years to build from order to commissioning; the same was true of the last generation of battleships.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Yeah; I have some thoughts for a large cruiser/capship between 5-9k tons, plus the fleet carrier.
Trade Analysis
It's a combo of nice round number and planning for future growth. With >20,000 tons of construction space now, and running into bottlenecks on pilots (we've got maybe 10 more interstellar ships' worth of pilots), I think we should start looking to build fewer, bigger ships. The size of this ship is going to be a soft cap on future construction for a while. That said, if we chose to build a 6,000 ton equivalent, we'd just scale this down.
On a different note, looking at trade, and:
* We are an agricultural world (somehow!).
* Xyri is non-industrial, non-agricultural, and poor.
* Cassalon is non-agricultural and poor.
* The first Aslan system is low population, poor, and in an amber zone.
* Keoiri is non-industrial, agicultural, pre-rich, and in an amber zone.
* The third Aslan system is non-industrial, in an amber zone, and fluid (weird atmo, of some sort).
Deriving the rest from the given system codes:
* Nova Refugio is low population and non-industrial.
* Equus is non-industrial and agricultural.
* Hermosa and Sinone are unknown.
* Hexos is non-industrial, poor, and a desert.
* Garda-Villis is high tech.
* Fornice is agricultural.
* The new Noctocole colony is non-industrial and low population.
* Menorb is poor and high population
* Inthe is agricultural
* Natoko is high population and a garden world.
* There are presumably some asteroids that haven't been listed, such as the Deep Hope mining station.
(As an aside, emigration from Menorb and Natoko to Home and Inthe would result in favourable economic changes for all parties...)
The way purchase prices work is that you take the base cost, and multiply it by a factor which is determined by 3d6+broker skill+max(purchase modifier)+min(sale modifier), with high rolls being good. Selling prices are the same, but the purchase and sale modifiers are flipped and low rolls are good. Practically speaking, this means we want to purchase the most expensive goods from systems with the highest possible purchase mod, and sell at the highest possible sale mod; these are determined by the trade codes. I'm going to assume an average roll of 10.5. Local broker skill averages to 1.5, with an increase of 1 for each 5% cut on the price we're willing to take (2e) or 1% for +1, 2% for +2, 5% for +3, 7% for +4, 10% for +5, and 15% for +6 (1e). Increasing by 1 level normally is a 5% increase in profitability, with the exception of a weird jump in selling prices; for simplicity's sake, I'm going to just ignore the possible increases so I don't have to bug Section about which rules to use. If we're using the 1e rules, then go for max skill broker; if we're using 2e, then max skill selling and min skill buying.
| Trade Code | Purchasing | Selling |
| Agricultural | Common raw materials (+3) Common consumables (+3) Biochemicals (+1) Live animals (+2) Luxury consumables (+2) Textiles (+7) Uncommon raw materials (+2) Wood (+6) Illegal biochemicals (+0) Illegal luxuries (+2) | Common industrial goods (+2) Petrochemicals (+1) |
| Amber | Advanced Weapons (+2) Illegal cybernetics (+6) Illegal weapons (+8) | |
| Asteroid | Common ore (+4) Gems (+2) Pharmaceuticals (+2) Precious metals (+3) Radioactives (+2) Uncommon ore (+4) Illegal drugs (+1) | Common consumables (+1) Advanced Electronics (+3) Advanced Machine Parts (+2) Advanced Vehicles (+2) Cybernetics (+1) Illegal cybernetics (+4) |
| Desert | Gems (+1) Petrochemicals (+2) Spices (+2) Illegal drugs (+1) | |
| Fluid | Common consumables (+1) | |
| Garden | Common raw materials (+2) Common consumables (+1) Illegal drugs (+1) | |
| High pop | Luxury goods (+1) Pharmaceuticals (+1) | Common manufactured goods (+2) Common consumables (+1) Advanced Manufactured Goods (+1) Luxury consumables (+2) Spices (+2) Textiles (+3) Vehicles (+1) Illegal drugs (+6) Illegal luxuries (+4) |
| High tech | Common electronics (+3) Advanced Electronics (+3) Advanced Machine Parts (+1) Advanced Weapons (+2) Advanced Vehicles (+2) Cybernetics (+1) Medical Supplies (+2) Vehicles (+1) Illegal cybernetics (+1) Illegal weapons (+2) | Precious metals (+1) Uncommon raw materials (+1) |
| Low pop | Radioactives (+2) | Live animals (+3) |
| Non-agricultural | Common industrial goods (+2) Common manufactured goods (+2) | Textiles (+2) |
| Non-industrial | Common electronics (+2) Common industrial goods (+3) Common manufactured goods (+3) Common ore (+1) Advanced Electronics (+1) Advanced Machine Parts (+1) Uncommon ore (+1) Vehicles (+2) | |
| Poor | Common electronics (+1) Common raw materials (+2) Advanced Weapons (+1) Medical Supplies (+1) Spices (+3) Illegal weapons (+6) |
Anyways, what should we be trading? Here's a table showing the average profit per ton of each good against the combined purchase and sale modifiers listed in the above table:
0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | |
| Common electronics | 0.005 | 0.006 | 0.007 | 0.008 | 0.009 | 0.01 | |||||
| Common industrial goods | 0.0025 | 0.003 | 0.0035 | 0.004 | 0.0045 | 0.005 | |||||
| Common manufactured goods | 0.005 | 0.006 | 0.007 | 0.008 | 0.009 | 0.01 | |||||
| Common raw materials | 0.00125 | 0.0015 | 0.00175 | 0.002 | 0.00225 | 0.0025 | |||||
| Common consumables | 0.000125 | 0.00015 | 0.000175 | 0.0002 | 0.000225 | ||||||
| Common ore | 0.00025 | 0.0003 | 0.00035 | 0.0004 | 0.00045 | 0.0005 | |||||
| Advanced electronics | 0.025 | 0.03 | 0.035 | 0.04 | 0.045 | 0.05 | 0.055 | ||||
| Advanced machine parts | 0.01875 | 0.0225 | 0.02625 | 0.03 | |||||||
| Advanced manufactured goods | 0.025 | 0.03 | |||||||||
| Advanced weapons | 0.0375 | 0.045 | 0.0525 | 0.06 | 0.0675 | ||||||
| Advanced vehicles | 0.045 | 0.054 | 0.063 | 0.072 | 0.081 | ||||||
| Biochemicals | 0.0125 | 0.015 | |||||||||
| Gems | 0.005 | 0.006 | 0.007 | ||||||||
| Cybernetics | 0.0625 | 0.075 | 0.0875 | ||||||||
| Live animals | 0.0025 | 0.003 | 0.0035 | 0.004 | 0.0045 | 0.005 | |||||
| Luxury consumables | 0.005 | 0.006 | 0.007 | 0.008 | 0.009 | ||||||
| Luxury goods | 0.05 | 0.06 | |||||||||
| Medical supplies | 0.0125 | 0.015 | 0.0175 | 0.02 | |||||||
| Petrochemicals | 0.0025 | 0.003 | 0.0035 | 0.004 | |||||||
| Pharmaceuticals | 0.025 | 0.03 | 0.035 | ||||||||
| Precious metals | 0.0125 | 0.015 | 0.0175 | 0.02 | 0.0225 | ||||||
| Radioactives | 0.25 | 0.3 | 0.35 | ||||||||
| Spices | 0.0015 | 0.0018 | 0.0021 | 0.0024 | 0.0027 | 0.003 | |||||
| Textiles | 0.00075 | 0.0009 | 0.00105 | 0.0012 | 0.00135 | 0.0015 | 0.00165 | 0.0018 | 0.00195 | 0.0021 | 0.00225 |
| Uncommon ore | 0.00125 | 0.0015 | 0.00175 | 0.002 | 0.00225 | 0.0025 | |||||
| Uncommon raw materials | 0.005 | 0.006 | 0.007 | ||||||||
| Wood | 0.00025 | 0.0003 | 0.00035 | 0.0004 | 0.00045 | 0.0005 | 0.00055 | ||||
| Vehicles | 0.00375 | 0.0045 | 0.00525 | 0.006 | |||||||
| Illegal biochemicals | 0.0125 | ||||||||||
| Illegal cybernetics | 0.0625 | 0.075 | 0.0875 | 0.1 | 0.1125 | 0.125 | 0.1375 | 0.15 | |||
| Illegal drugs | 0.025 | 0.03 | 0.035 | 0.04 | 0.045 | 0.05 | 0.055 | 0.06 | |||
| Illegal luxuries | 0.0125 | 0.015 | 0.0175 | 0.02 | 0.0225 | 0.025 | 0.0275 | ||||
| Illegal weapons | 0.0375 | 0.045 | 0.0525 | 0.06 | 0.0675 | 0.075 | 0.0825 | 0.09 | 0.0975 | 0.105 | 0.1125 |
I've bolded the things that Home, Cassalon, and Xyri can produce, since growing the local economy with exports is good. I'm assuming that our asteroid mining doesn't give us the Asteroid trade code anywhere. After biochemicals (which sell equally well everywhere), common electronics and manufactured goods are the most profitable things we can produce, ironically (ignoring illegal goods), and we make the biggest profit when selling those to non-industrial and poor systems.
The most profitable item to be trading is radioisotopes, by far. However, those are only produced by systems with the tags low pop, desert, or asteroid (i.e., the first Aslan system, Nova Refugio, the new Noctocole colony, and Hexos). There's a great deal of profit to be made bringing radioactives from Hexos and Nova Refugio to Garda-Villis, if we can convince the locals to sell to our traders.
Following up radioactives are the high-tech items that only Garda-Villis can produce (at least in our local neighbourhood). If they're willing to sell, transporting things like cybernetics advanced vehicles to market could be lucrative. Sale markets for Garda-Villis's goods are primarily non-industrial and asteroids.
The north, despite my hopes, isn't a great place to trade. However, it's probably worth establishing a permanent trade link since Menorb and Natoko are the only high pop worlds around. If we could somehow teleport Menorb's population to Home, it'd be amazing for our trade prospects, but I doubt we can move a billion people
[X] OPLAN: Caltrop
12-3: The Citizens Council
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
What is the HSWS position? We should build a series of mine warfare ships that are limited to their system to protect the major inhabited volumes and continue building auxiliary mine ships for use in more distant systems such as Heimdall or Deep Hope. We should mine Deep Hope, Heimdall, and Staging Point as our auxiliary craft come online. Prioritize Deep Hope once the mining station is rebuilt and a defensive station established. For our inhabited systems (Xyri, Cassalon, Home), the focus should be on orbitals, infrastructure, and other important targets first, then the inhabited planets. Gas giants should receive a small, cursory number of mines to dissuade unauthorized use when needed. These can be increased in wartime, if needed, to deny easy refueling.
When the HSWS inevitably returns, what should be the focus of our efforts? We should seek out an alliance and trade partner, with an eye towards securing our southern frontier. Inquire about the Articles of War.
Available Budget: 1,299.53MCr
Current Dockyard Usage: 21,400/21,500Dtons
Current Pilot Usage: 85/100
Mine Warfare
The role of the HSLS Alakshmi is thus established, at least until the production of an in system mine-laying ship. Over the next year, she will deploy:
- 1,000 Mines and MEP's in Home, concentrated around Home herself.
- 2,000 Mines and MEP's in Cassalon, concentrated on the main world's orbital infrastructure and the secondary yards in the outer system.
- 1,500 Mines and MEP's in Xyri, again concentrated around the main world.
These three core systems will thus be protected until a smaller, local mine warfare vessel can come online and free up the jump capable vessel for longer range operations. While concerns have been raised about the dangers of mining the approaches to our home worlds, those unnerved by the issue are reassured that almost all systems emplaced are command-fired rather than free-firing and will functionally only be active if an enemy threat is detected.
While that begins, the HSWS turns to other plans - notably, what are the capabilities of a planned system mine warfare ship. It will not have to jump around, will not have to spend long weeks in jump space, and can spend more of its time focused on simply conducting field maintenance and support. Thus the size of the vessel will directly correlate to its laying capability.
How big does the HSWS want the core-world mine fields to be?
[ ] 1-1,500 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 250 mines per month).
[ ] 2-3,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 500 mines per month).
[ ] 4-6,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 1,000 mines per month).
Citizens Council
It has now been several months since the significant losses suffered around Deep Hope and the Citizens Council has noted that despite the delivery of significant funds, there has been no significant activity on behalf of the HSWS in order to find or combat the oncoming threats from wherever they are. They ask several pointed questions, including questioning whether the HSWS is ever going to go out and bring those responsible to task, or if the request for additional funding was simply an exercise in personal advancement and fattening the wallets of the senior staff.
There are, in point of fact, a great number of under-developed worlds to the North that could serve as a buffer against any hostility. Why has the HSWS not taken its advanced (and expensive) ships and emplaced itself there to function as a tripwire or defensive position against attackers? What of the prison planet? There has not been a mission there since first visiting and the population would surely be willing to offer information in exchange for freedom. Why is the HSWS failing to act on so many fronts?
What is the HSWS response to the Citizens Council?
[ ] Immediately plan and deploy a military mission North - to do what?
[ ] Immediately plan and deploy an escorted scout mission - where and with what intent?
[ ] Other - write in
Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
So, based on the math, I think we should do a 5,000 mine minelayer. 1,000 mines per month is nothing. Here's my attempt at it:
This is making some assumptions about how minelaying works that likely does not hold, but it's enough to get us in a ballpark range. 40 MCr means this ship can be cranked out in a month, and it's basically a rounding error on our budget and yardspace usage. We can build one for Home, one for Xyri, and two for Cassalon and then forget about it. A smaller minelayer is increasingly inefficient since we're starting to run into minimum tonnages - the minelaying bay is a fixed size, the crew won't get much smaller than this, etc., so I strongly think the largest minelayer possible is ideal.
As for the citizen's council, we should tell them to fuck off. I will vote for whichever plan does this most strongly.
| Tonnage | Cost | Power | Crew | ||
| Minelaying Bay | 50 | ||||
| 1000 mines | 666.6667 | ||||
| M-1 Drive | 7.748611 | 15.49722 | 77.48611 | ||
| Reduced-size bridge | 10 | 1.937153 | |||
| Computer | 0.16 | ||||
| Crew (1) | 5 | ||||
| Crew (2) | 1 | ||||
| Double-bunked staterooms | 12 | 1.5 | |||
| Fuel tankage | 3 | ||||
| Fusion Plant | 23.24583 | 11.62292 | |||
| Hamster cage (gravity ring) | 2.2 | 0.4125 | |||
| Dispersed lightweight non-gravity hull | 7.264323 | 154.9722 | |||
| Sum | 774.8611 | 38.39411 | 232.4583 | 6 | |
| Total | 774.8611 | 38.39411 | 232.4583 | 6 |
This is making some assumptions about how minelaying works that likely does not hold, but it's enough to get us in a ballpark range. 40 MCr means this ship can be cranked out in a month, and it's basically a rounding error on our budget and yardspace usage. We can build one for Home, one for Xyri, and two for Cassalon and then forget about it. A smaller minelayer is increasingly inefficient since we're starting to run into minimum tonnages - the minelaying bay is a fixed size, the crew won't get much smaller than this, etc., so I strongly think the largest minelayer possible is ideal.
As for the citizen's council, we should tell them to fuck off. I will vote for whichever plan does this most strongly.
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
Wha?
We're using the construction times from high guard 1e i'm afraid. I *hate* one day per MCr with a burning passion.
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
How do our mines only have four to six months of endurance. That's really bad.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
A year. But yeah they're currently kinda mid!
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hm. Frustration with the Council micromanaging us notwithstanding (does all the sudden investment in mine warfare not constitute a response to the attack???), the increased budget is nice enough that we should probably play along. Last update mentioned our scouts approaching the limits of their range, which considering the vagaries of drop tanks is probably longer than any range we'd ever want to fight at, so we're going to want to establish a further-north staging point of some kind if we're gonna be at all proactive up there (which is seemingly going to be mandatory). Thoughts on snagging the asteroid(?, I don't recall what this is but am going off the map) northeast of Deep Hope versus heading for the inhabited worlds?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While it would be useful as a location for another refueling station, I don't think that's a particularly high priority to get when it would be even more vulnerable than Deep Hope and its value is currently questionable with us not knowing what our standing is with the three worlds there. The main value of grabbing it is that it makes a trip from the north to Home possible with only one jump worth of fuel needed the entire way with refueling available in every system albeit with it being a much longer trip to Menorb. That takes a lot of time though and seems more useful for civilian trade than it does for our current operations.
We're long overdue for a return trip to them with the diplomatic ship, but given the sudden raid from the north and the amount of time that has passed since we were last there I think a escorted scouting + diplomatic mission to the three inhabited worlds and what lays beyond them is in order.
We're long overdue for a return trip to them with the diplomatic ship, but given the sudden raid from the north and the amount of time that has passed since we were last there I think a escorted scouting + diplomatic mission to the three inhabited worlds and what lays beyond them is in order.
That's a good idea, I think.
Not sure if we can build a logistical station here (we would need to spend money and at least civilian yardspace to build the station, or to rebuild a Deep Hope one). But we can lay minefield there and stage some ships for now, before we would move to building.
In parallel we can send scounts to check (contact?) the prison planet. Or maybe split the scouts and send some of them to contact the "merry happy worlds" to the west of prison planet?
Or even if we chose not to scout the prison/non-prison planets, we can still present our move to that rock as "we ARE doing something, in careful way, this is a first step" for the Council
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