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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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C_Z said:
I am going to cheat.



@Traveller76, @Tallhart, @Pinniped, @0t4n1z3r019, my original plan was made under the (mistaken) assumptions that:

Omarov's beloved LMDCs could be placed in a capital ship turret (we need to get the TL10 non-prototype version to do so);
Command bridges are highly useful (they give a +1 to naval tactics checks while being heavier, which it turns out are just rolling for initiative to see who goes first if both sides detect each other simultaneously and to coordinate multiple formations of fighters and the like acting together, and nothing that'd be useful for our isolated defence stations);
We have access to dispersed sensor arrays.
All of the above require a 5,000 ton hull and are what led to me picking a 5,000 ton hull initially. That's now much less important, and by making the hull smaller, we free up yardspace and ~halve the cost of the defensive installation. We're now in a three-way tie between the original 5,000 ton plan and two new plans that opt for something smaller. Would any of you be interested in switching plans in light of my mistakes?
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Sure, should have paid more attention to the thread, but got no notifications for some reason.

[X] Plan: That's a moonlet!
 
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So I've tenatively okayed this with @4WheelSword, but I have a great idea for a megaproject when this war is over & I figured I'd share it while they're writing the update.

To start with, buffered planetoids are really good from a cost point of view for warships less than 5,000 tons. They are arguably tied with reinforced military hulls above that (since military hulls let us armour more, but cost more). However, the disadvantage of buffered planetoids is that they're good in cases where you're shipyard-rich but money-poor since they take up extra yard tonnage but cost less and perform better.

Tangentially, I've also asked, and we can be loose with the definition of "planetoid". It doesn't have to be a naturally-occuring asteroid; we could use the solidified cast-off slag and tailings of mineral refining. Fluff-wise, this would be advantageous anyways since you're getting a big ball of silicon and metal oxides of known and homogeneous composition instead of a rubble pile of unknown stuff (which we presumably sinter together during the construction process). If you're using armoured bulkheads, you could also pour the semi-liquid slag and tailings (right after it comes out of the smelter) around the "mould" formed by the armoured bulkheads, making production easier and cheaper (which wouldn't be represented by the mechanics, but it's neat).

Anyways, shipyard-rich but money-poor. We're sorta in that position, but we could always be more shipyard rich. There's an option to add shipyard space to stations in High Guard:
SHIPYARD
The smallest shipyards are found on civilian stations for
the construction of small craft but far larger construction
sites can be found on the stations of megacorporations
and militaries. Shipyards provide the facilities needed
to build ships to the Tech Level of the space station.
A shipyard consumes two tons for every ton of the
largest ship it is capable of building or the total
tonnage of ships it can build at any one time (so, a
10,000-ton shipyard can build ships totalling up to
5,000 tons). For every ton they consume, shipyards
cost MCr0.5 and require 1 Power. They also need one
crewman for every 10 tons.
In order to construct ships with jump drives, a shipyard
must be of a suitable Tech Level, as defined on the
Jump Potential table on page 16. So, for example, to
build jump-3 ships, a shipyard must be at least Tech
Level 12. Shipyards capable of building ships with jump
drives have their cost increased to MCr0.75 per ton.
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Let's say we have a station which has a shipyard that is designed around 5,000 ton hulls. It has a big cargo space that is full of common and uncommon raw materials, which it uses in construction of quasi-buffered planetoid spacecraft. It starts by building the internal components and a metal reinforcing scaffold for the future spacecraft out of the stored raw materials.

Then the magic happens. This station isn't just building spacecraft at one end, but it's also taking in small asteroids and chewing them up at the other end to produce the common and uncommon raw materials:
MINERAL REFINERY
Mineral refineries convert asteroids into useful metals
and materials. Some are made up of individual
platforms, each of which contribute to the operation and
others are distributed systems with multiple substations
coordinated by a central hub. This is an alternative
to mining asteroids and transporting only the ore, as
practiced by ships such as the seeker on page 162.
Mineral refineries rely on manned tugs to bring suitable
asteroids to the space station, although at TL12 these
are replaced by tug drones.
Once asteroids are delivered to the station, they must
be crushed, the ores and other by-products sorted, and
waste released back into space. The produce is split
between 50% Common Ore, 30% Uncommon Ore, 15%
Crystals and Gems and 5% Precious Metals (as defined
on page 244 of the Traveller Core Rulebook). For
example, for every 100 tons of produce from the refinery,
50 tons is Basic Ore, 30 tons is Uncommon Ore, 15 tons
Crystals & Gems and five tons Precious Metals.
[...]
Smelter: Ores are the normal end-product of a
mineral refinery but many stations also conduct onboard
processing to create more valuable materials.
A smelter allows Common Ores to be processed into
Common Raw Materials and Uncommon Ores into
Uncommon Raw Materials. Each ton of smelter allows
the processing of 0.2 tons of Ores into 0.1 tons of Raw
Materials per day. A smelter costs MCr0.5 and requires
1 Power per ton.
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Normally, a refinery and smelter isn't colocated with a shipyard, so the waste from the above processes is just "released back into space". That's not waste to us though, that's a valuable building material for our buffered planetoids! We take it, keep it semi-molten through the use of the vacuum for insulation and creating internal friction with grav plates, and once the skeleton of rebar and armour is ready, we slowly pour it on top to form the hull of our new warship. The finished hull then moves further back down the tube of the shipyard, where it undergoes fitting out; we basically have a system where a bunch of asteroids go in one end, and finished warships come out the back.

We'd surround this all with a big O'Neill cylinder, which houses the workers and such, producing a station which looks kinda like a puffy, hollow cylinder surrounding another hollow cylinder that is blocked halfway through. It'd be designed to be modular so that we can construct it in our yards and then haul it into place in an asteroid belt. While it'd be a high upfront price tag (I'm estimating it at 17 billion Cr, meaning it's ten times the cost of our most expensive cruiser thus far), it'd let us build another pair of 5,000 ton warships at a time. A buffered planetoid warship, meanwhile, represents around a 250 MCr savings for every ~5,000 ton warship we build, This is definitely a postwar project, but IMO it's an investment that will pay off in the future when we can spam 5,000 ton cruisers.
 
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12-7: Chilling Effect
  • Threadmarks
    • Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Oct 20, 2024 at 8:56 AM, finished with 111 posts and 13 votes.
    • [X] Plan: That's a moonlet!
      -[X] Write-in: We should propose offering housing on Home for immigrants willing to come work in our industries.
      -[X] Other: write in:
      --[X] An approximately 3,000 ton self-propelled defensive/minefield command monitor, built into a buffered planetoid with an emphasis on defence & durability, in order to free up the ships currently on Cassalon Station.
      --[X] Another in-system minelayer.
      --[X] Refit more frigates into sensor pickets, as budget and yardspace allows.
      -[X] Write-in: Allocate what forces can be spared and have them rendezvous with Omarov's fleet ASAP.
      -[X] Write-in: establish best practices for new military construction, such as hardening systems which draw power and are combat-critical.
      [X] Plan Rocky Islands
      -[X] We should propose offering more land on Home.
      -[X] Other: write in:
      --[X] 3x 3000t defensive stations designed for survivability and to command minefields built into a buffered planetoid to be deployed in Deep Hope and to establish northern fortified bases.
      -[X] Write-in: In addition to the patrol carrier, send the MAT alongside any spare escorting ships we can spare to Omarov.
      -[X] Write-in: establish best practices for new military construction, such as hardening systems which draw power and are combat-critical.
      [X] Plan: That's a moon!
      -[X] Write-in: We should propose offering housing on Home for immigrants willing to come work in our industries.
      -[X] Other: write in:
      --[X] An approximately 5,000 ton self-propelled defensive/minefield command station, built into a buffered planetoid with an emphasis on defence & durability, in order to free up the ships currently on Cassalon Station.
      --[X] Another in-system minelayer.
      --[X] Refit more frigates into sensor pickets, as budget and yardspace allows.
      -[X] Write-in: Allocate what forces can be spared and have them rendezvous with Omarov's fleet ASAP.
      -[X] Write-in: develop a package of rapid modernizations that can be made to ships under repairs, such as bolting a point defence fragentation missile rack onto the sides of the currently-used twin laser turrets.
      -[X] Write-in: establish best practices for new military construction, such as hardening systems which draw power and are combat-critical.
      [X] Plan: Caturix, MAT and garrison commanders
      -[X] Aslan: Land on Home for Aslan clans that promise to provide technical experts for our industries.
      -[X] North: Send MAT and other available reinforcements to Omarov
      -[X] Garrisons: garrison commanders are to make their systems safe Vs attack by forces similar to a large fleet of these stealth ships or by a fleet of similar capacity to the best seen allied or enemy fleet from a near peer. If this is not possible then they must ask for what they think they need.
      -[X] Yard priorities: Prepare the Caturix monitor for battle in the north if analysts believe it will perform well; convert or build new spotting ships; meet reasonable requests from garrison commanders; refit other ships as possible with better sensors if that helps; CFA-D if we have space and budget.
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    Is the HSWS willing to take the Aslan's price to the Council? We should propose offering housing on Home for immigrants willing to come work in our industries.
    What is due for construction? An approximately 3,000 ton self-propelled defensive/minefield command monitor, Another in-system minelayer, Refit more frigates into sensor pickets, as budget and yardspace allows.

    Available Budget: 1,731.72MCr
    Current Dockyard Usage: 21,400/21,500Dtons + 9,400Dtons in civilian yards
    Current Pilot Usage: 85/100


    Aslan
    The Aslan would love for new migrant workers, predominantly female clan members, to move to and settle on Home in order to revitalise Home's struggling industries. They will, of course, bring their families and will likely represent several prides worth of Aslan resettling from Aslan space into Home space. As ever, they will abide by Home's laws, they will be citizens of Home and the more widely forming conglomeration of states.

    What, the Aslan ask, would the HSWS like in return? Would it like more advanced engine systems? Improved power plants? Weapons or Sensors? There are so many choices, but the Aslan are not going to give away all their secrets at once.

    Select two of the following:
    [ ] Advanced Drive Layouts
    [ ] Improved Plant Efficiencies
    [ ] Electronics and Sensors
    [ ] Command and Control systems
    [ ] Enhanced Starship-grade Weapons


    System Defence
    A new vision of System Defence comes from the halls of power in the HSWS - The System Defence and Mine Warfare Monitor. This relatively small, relatively simple craft will be built into a comet or asteroid that is compressed and buffered until it is as solid as armour. Then, plating will be added to the internal spaces to increase the protection to standard military levels. This small, unassuming rock will then be outfitted with sensors, weaponry, hardened systems and other protections to absolutely reduce the chance of critical damage being done to any of its major systems during combat.

    ​
    It is notable for the presence of remarkably well-outfitted common spaces, including the use of a swimming pool to ensure that crew aboard can stay fit an active during long deployments into otherwise under-defended systems. It will also be especially useful as the monitor is small enough to move on a Merchant, Modular. It also only costs just under 600 million credits per example and can be built in just a handful of years.

    Available Budget: 1,149.77MCr

    Another in-system minelayer will be laid down in civilian yards, raising the use of those yards to over 10,000 yards and drawing a great deal of murmuring from the Citizens Council about the use of economically vital industry for an under-fought war.

    Available Budget: 1,041.8875MCr

    Finally, additional plans are drawn up to convert escort frigates into sensor platforms, but that will not happen until more yard space is available for military construction.


    Menorb
    The current disposition of forces is as follows:
    Menorb Contingent
    - Two CFA cruisers, including Vice-Marshall Omarov's flagship
    - One Patrol Carrier
    - Two ICbIII
    - Two FFEs
    - Two Aslan Cruisers
    - One FSS
    Deeper Hope Contingent
    - Two ICbIIIs
    - Two Aslan Cruisers
    - Two FFEs
    - One MAT
    - One FSS
    Home Force
    - One CFA, awaiting repairs
    - Two FFEs
    Cassalon Force
    - Two ICbIIIs
    - Two FFEs
    Heimdall Force
    - One CFA
    - Two ICbIIIs

    This is the full disposition of Home's forces, including a third being out of action for their standard leave rotations and various minor repairs required when a ship comes off the frontline. Home, Cassalon and Heimdall are all under defended, and several minor stations have been temporarily abandoned as part of the war effort. Over the course of several months, Vice-Marshall Omarov reports little in the way of contact and eventually requests permission to return to Deeper Hope (previously Sector '01, -02') and dispatch more ships to Home for rotation out. The enemy appears to have ceased hostile action in Menorb at least, and while this would require abandoning offensive action at this time, the Vice-Marshall does not feel confident in her ability to take the system fully without greater strength.

    Vice-Marshall Omarov requests orders, firm orders, on how to proceed in Menorb:
    [ ] Pull out of the system and maintain a strong force at Deeper Hope.
    [ ] Deliver a shipment of Ortillery missiles and torpedoes and conduct targeted strikes against surface and orbit military infrastructure around the system.
    [ ] Reduce the force in the system but retain control with regular patrols and deployments to the area.
    [ ] Something else - write in.
    Vice-Marshall Amir Adabayo requests a military escort for his Scout Flotilla to enable it to punch through enemy threats and discover exactly where the stealth ships are coming from:
    [ ] Assign a strong escort to enable the mission.
    [ ] Assign a moderate escort to enable the mission.
    [ ] The Scout Flotilla will have to conduct this mission without escort.
    [ ] Something else - write in.


    Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • WestOrEast said:
    With how elusive the northern foe is being, grabbing better sensors seems like a pretty good choice.
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    Idk, there are a lot of really important options in other areas. Specifically, I'm looking at C&C and weapons:
    • TL10 computers let us get another 10 bandwidth on our ships. They also allow for the use of Virtual Crew/0. While this is a malus (most of our crew have >0 skill, presumably), it means we can get rid of the bulky and costly gravity plates, living spaces, and the like. There's a lot of neat ideas that are killed by requiring a crewmember aboard, and one crewmember leads to cascading tonnage increases.
    • TL10 computers also get us EWAR software, which act as a +1 to sensor checks. I think that's roughly comparable to what we'd get from a 1 TL boost in sensors right now.
    • TL10 weapons let us put the LMDCs, which are so useful, into turrets (which remove the negative maluses when shooting small targets) and halve their size and power. We could double the firepower of most of our existing ships that use LMDCs. Edit: It'd also allow for point defence batteries, which are much better than our current individual PD guns.
     
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    Just checked, and because we already have TL10 sensors, the advantage would be negligible. Aside from tonnage decreases from things not being prototypes, the big unlock is prototype extendable arrays, which give +2 to sensors and take up a lot of space while requiring the using spacecraft to be stationary.

    Meanwhile, for 3 tons we can add a specialized sensor control centre (which gives +1) and EWAR software (which also gives +1). I think the reduction in tonnage from going to virtual crew is more than the reduction we get from the upgraded sensors.

    Also, virtual crew would let us spam out cheap, expendable sensor drones that we could use to detect targets at really long ranges.
     
    C_Z said:
    TL10 weapons let us put the LMDCs, which are so useful, into turrets (which remove the negative maluses when shooting small targets) and halve their size and power. We could double the firepower of most of our existing ships that use LMDCs. Edit: It'd also allow for point defence batteries, which are much better than our current individual PD guns.
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    No less importantly, in addition to lighter LMDCs it should provide us access to HMDCs (ominous music playing in distance)

    upd
    Let's send our scouts to finally check out the Prison Planet. There could be answers there.
     
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    We should formulate a strategy for how we intend to fight the war; if hanging around in Menorb won't get us anything we should refocus into a heavily defended scout mission to find these people and where they come from.

    Alternately, what does the Admiral think she needs to take and hold Menorb's orbitals?
     
    @4WheelSword

    Can we get some more details about what Omarov has been doing?

    - What have they been trying to do and why?
    - What have they actually managed?
    - How many of our craft destroyed, surrendered, sent for critical repairs?
    - How many enemy craft seen, engaged, damaged, destroyed?
    - Any news on the link between the ships and the planet-based populations?
     
    Sensors would give us production models of the prototype extension net and shallow penetration suite, but it would also give us prototypes of distributed/extended arrays and signal processing systems. Extended arrays increase the range they can detect objects with minimal detail by one step.
    By using multiple hull-mounted arrays in an integrated computer-controlled arrangement, it is possible to increase the effective antenna size and range of a sensor suite. EM and active radar/lidar can then detect objects at Distant range and passive radar/lidar at Long range. All information gained at these ranges is minimal.
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    It also gives us access to prototype signal processing systems, which provide a +2 to all sensor related checks at the expense of doubling the DMs other ships have for jamming a ship equipped with them.
     
    Draz said:
    - What have they been trying to do and why?
    - What have they actually managed?
    - How many of our craft destroyed, surrendered, sent for critical repairs?
    - How many enemy craft seen, engaged, damaged, destroyed?
    - Any news on the link between the ships and the planet-based populations?
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    1) Fight the war. She pushed into Menorb (last known location of the enemy) and engaged several of them.
    2) Heavily damaged several enemy ships, caused the destruction of at least one.
    3) a few of the latter, none of the former two under Omarov.
    4) Some. Like, several of a singular class. Unfortunately their sensor bullshit means spotting individual craft is harder than it was with the Hermosans.
    5) What sort of news?
     
    4WheelSword said:
    1) Fight the war. She pushed into Menorb (last known location of the enemy) and engaged several of them.
    2) Heavily damaged several enemy ships, caused the destruction of at least one.
    3) a few of the latter, none of the former two under Omarov.
    4) Some. Like, several of a singular class. Unfortunately their sensor bullshit means spotting individual craft is harder than it was with the Hermosans.
    5) What sort of news?
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    What does the Admiral thinks she needs to take and hold the inner orbitals, out of curiosity?
     
    Rat King said:
    What does the Admiral thinks she needs to take and hold the inner orbitals, out of curiosity?
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    YEAH.

    It's mostly a question of forcing the planet to not just toss missiles and tell you to get bent. Taking the inner orbitals is as much about securing refuelling and docking berths, not just engaging military targets.
     
    4WheelSword said:
    This is the full disposition of Home's forces, including a third being out of action for their standard leave rotations and various minor repairs required when a ship comes off the frontline.
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    Does this list include the ships tha are on repair/leaves, or exclude them? Because if it excludes then it a bit misleadingly written (typo?). And if it includes everything, then one CFA is missing (the list shows 4 CFAs, we have 5 of them - one from Cassalon, that was moved to Home, is not mentioned).

    In addition - could you please tell us, what had come of our diplomatic outreach to Noctocole?
     
    So, I think we have two options here and it depends on what we want to.

    Option 1 - we ship in torpedoes and ortillery and demolish Menorb's orbitals before moving in and seizing what's left utilizing the MAT and other boarding operations and then force the planet to talk. This will eat up a lot of ships and has a higher risk profile. But it could conceivably get us something. Might also mean we get some of our people back. Would also get the Council to stop complaining about how we haven't done anything yet.

    Option 2 - we pull out, except for some patrols to maintain eyes on, and put forces into a heavily escorted recon mission with the scout flotilla to try and locate our mysterious opponent. "Safer" option, might get us some vitally important information.
     
    Josiah said:
    Does this list include the ships tha are on repair/leaves, or exclude them? Because if it excludes then it a bit misleadingly written (typo?). And if it includes everything, then one CFA is missing (the list shows 4 CFAs, we have 5 of them - one from Cassalon, that was moved to Home, is not mentioned).

    In addition - could you please tell us, what had come of our diplomatic outreach to Noctocole?
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    Sorry, excluding the ships on leave. I mixed it up.

    I'll go check on Noctocole.
     
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