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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Fireiy said:
I think that furthering our relationship with the Daughters is part and parcel with reducing the Citizen's Councils influence on us and I do not think we can really fully separate ourselves from the funding provided by another body. The taxes of millions of people is always going to make up far, far more of our budget than any attempts to gain our own income through trade.
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Second part about the taxes being most important part of financing - definitely true. First part - not strictly necessarily.

First of all, HSWS already relies on financing, manpower and industrial production from three planets, rather than from Home exclusively.
Or, more specifically, from Home's government, Cassalon's and from Xyri's three different ones.
So if we expect that some standoff with Citizen Council is possible, keeping good relationships with other governments will be "make or break". If they would keep us supplied during standoff, we are somewhat ok already. If, on other hand, they would support the Citizen Council as "civilian government oversight over military", then we are fucked.

Second, HSWS is also a oart of Home's government. The government is divided in hereditary plutocracy, which sits on Council and is a legislative branch, and hereditary bureaucracy, which is an executive. And HSWS is probably most important part of that bureaucracy branch currently.

If we develop our relationship with other parts of bureaucracy - and not only the Militia and Wardens, but with say, financial bureaucracy and such, we can 1) Have our internal allies in the planetside system which would support us and 2) in case of standoff we would present this as "part of civilian government vs other part of civilian government" conflict, rather than military coup. That should ease Cassalonese and Xyrians into siding with us rather than with Council.

One of the more funny things is if we put our next ally to make case that both they and Home's government are obligated to finance and support the HSWS. As in "the Home's government can't pull out of fulfilling their obligation from defending us, the new beautiful ally, by the space navy".
Then, if we would have the financial bureaucracy on our side, they would keep transferring the funds to us even over the plutocracy's objections.

And we can make the case to other parts of bureaucracy, "as we are all descendants of the ancient ship ranks, we have a lot in common with each other, and maybe we should be more important than landowners and corporates"

The most important thing is to keep it from being noticed by Council. We keep gaining more and more power. The later the Council notices this and decides that this is the issue, the stronger woul be our position against it.

Regarding the Daughters - they can be useful situational alky, and if we can introduce a Daughter faction into Council to make social reforms and what not, it would be morally better.
But civilian government made of Daughters would also issue commands to us and keep being the rhesus monkey.

Maybe if council would be divided between Daughters and corporates and keep arguing over welfare, they would allow us to conduct the foreign policy in peace ( :
 
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12-4: Vice-Marshall Gebara
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    • Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Oct 14, 2024 at 7:20 AM, finished with 35 posts and 5 votes.
    • [X] Plan: Fuck the citizen's council w/ Ba Kim
      -[X] 4-6,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 1,000 mines per month).
      -[X] Immediately plan and deploy a military mission North - to do what?
      --[X] Civilian ships, escorted for Expeditionary Flotilla, will establish a refueling and out post station in [01, -02]. The EF should leave a force adequate to guard this construction while it continues on the next leg of its mission.
      --[X] Concurrently, a diplomatic mission consisting of the Ba Kim and whatever forces Vice Admiral Gebara deems necessary will depart from [01, -02] to Menorb, Inthe, and Natoko with the goal of re-establishing contact and setting up permanent embassies in each system in advance of follow-up talks. The HSWS recommends that diplomacy focus on finding out what these planets want and how we can leverage that to bring these systems into our orbit to be used as an effective buffer zone for the core against raids (basing rights, etc. or even closer integration under a military alliance).
      --[X] Activate the reserve couriers (x3) to assist with message running within the mission space and to run news back to Home.
      --[X] Vice Admiral Gebara is authorized to take whatever independent action they deem necessary against hostile forces should ships of the same raider design be encountered or should their ships be fired upon by an unknown third party.
      --[X] As a tertiary objective for this mission, If time allows conduct a closer examination of the "prison planet".
      -[X] Other - write in:
      --[X] Surreptitiously begin investigating ways to insulate the HSWS from the Citizen's Council's whims
      [X] Plan: Fuck the citizen's council
      -[X] 4-6,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 1,000 mines per month).
      -[X] Immediately plan and deploy a military mission North - to do what?
      --[X] Civilian ships, escorted by a pair of interstellar cruisers and a frigate are to establish the beginnings of a permanent refelling and defence station in [01, -02].
      --[X] Concurrently, a diplomatic mission consisting of a CFA, a FSS, Ba Kim, and three frigates is to depart from [01, -02] to Menorb, Inthe, and Natoko, leaving behind the frigates to set up permanent embassies in each system in advance of follow-up talks.
      --[X] Activate the reserve couriers (x3) to assist with message running within the mission space and to run news back to Home.
      --[X] This mission is authorized to take whatever independent action they deem necessary against hostile forces should ships of the same raider design be encountered or should their ships be fired upon by an unknown third party.
      -[X] Other - write in:
      --[X] Surreptitiously begin investigating ways to insulate the HSWS from the Citizen's Council's whims
      [X] Plan: Slow and Careful Fornicating &Knuckles Ba Kim
      -[X] 4-6,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 1,000 mines per month).
      -[X] Immediately plan and deploy a military mission North - to do what?
      --[X] Minelayer, to create a minefield around the [01, -02] comet body, and two frigates to watch over it. In case of hostile attention, activate the field and either maneuver around it, or plain flee. Be careful that our new stealthy enemy can overtake us fleeing.
      --[X] Only after that, move more fleet force and civilian ships to erect the logistical station there.
      --[X] Concurrently, a diplomatic mission consisting of the Ba Kim and whatever forces Vice Admiral Gebara deems necessary will depart from [01, -02] to Menorb, Inthe, and Natoko with the goal of re-establishing contact and setting up permanent embassies in each system in advance of follow-up talks.
      --[X] Activate the reserve couriers (x3) to assist with message running within the mission space and to run news back to Home.
      --[X] Vice Admiral Gebara is authorized to take whatever independent action they deem necessary against hostile forces should ships of the same raider design be encountered or should their ships be fired upon by an unknown third party.
      --[X] As a tertiary objective for this mission, carefully (and in secret from Menorb, Inthe, and Natoko) investigate the "prison planet".
      -[X] Other - write in:
      --[X] Surreptitiously begin investigating legal ways to lock-in the HSWS financing. Even if we can't legalistically argue that current arrangements allow this, prepare new changed agreements for Fornice or whoever else, that would make financing the HSWS an obligation by Home's government, rather than at-will (as HSWS would be protecting the new allies, those allies will surely be relieved to know that Home's domestic politics can't invalidate the common shield of space force)
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    How big does the HSWS want the core-world mine fields to be? 4-6,000 mines (requiring a layer capable of deploying 1,000 mines per month).
    What is the HSWS response to the Citizens Council? Immediately plan and deploy a military mission North.

    Available Budget: 1,299.53MCr
    Current Dockyard Usage: 21,400/21,500Dtons
    Current Pilot Usage: 85/100


    Mine Warfare
    The mine warfare department of the HSWS (still four people) draws up plans with the help of a naval architect ambushed while she was on holiday with her wife. From this 'chance meeting' comes the design for the first System Boat designed by the HSWS in over a decade. This boat - slow, unarmoured and looking like it was built out of children's construction blocks - will perform exactly one job, and perform it well. It will be able to disperse 1,500Dtons of mines, mine equivalent platforms and similar over the course of each month-long mission, its crew of fourteen spending several long, lonely weeks slowly working their way around the system.

    ​
    It is also, notably, small enough to be carried aboard a Modular Conveyor should the HSWS decide additional small boats are needed in other systems where they cannot jump away. For now, however, these boats will be restricted to inhabited systems where the crew have plenty of space to stretch their legs between deployments. This is especially important as the ship is not equipped with grav plating and instead utilises spun sections to provide gravity for its crew.

    Three such ships - one laid down in each of Cassalon, Xyri and Home - will cost just 323.6475MCr and take up 'just' 1,800 tons of each systems civilian yards space.

    Remaining Budget: 975.8825MCr


    Going North
    Departing on 18y05m00w, a large force of HSWS ships go North. Passing through Deep Hope and the now massively scattered debris field of the mining station that has yet to be replaced, they move on to Sector '01, -02'. Here, a pair of Modular Conveyors drop their cargos - specially designed fuel tanks and cargo modules designed to be tethered in close proximity to the trojan asteroid utilised as a jump aiming point and await a fleet that needs them. It is not a defensive position, and they are not truly stations - a ship has to bring its own UNREP equipment to make use of them - but it is the first and the easiest step towards committing to a true outpost in the sector.

    While several ships stay behind to guard these resources and keep watch over the civilian ships coming and going, others - including the HSWS Segomo, flagship of Vice Marshall Matxalen Gebara - go further North with the intention of making diplomatic contacts. They jump to Natoko, the six ship task force, and leave contact with other Home Space Warfare Service Forces.

    What follows are excerpts from Vice-Marshall Gebara's log:

    18y06m01w - We arrived in Natoko in good order, with a five hour gap between first and last arrival. Natoko is, as when we first visited, a busy and complex system. The gas giants were especially busy with in-system traffic and while several departing jump flashes were reported, I dismissed them as a normal part of dealing with another jump capable polity. We were nonetheless welcomed, as previously, and while my ships refuelled I hosted dinner aboard the Segomo for the systems leadership and senior political figures. In total we spent two weeks in Natoko, our stores and tanks full to bursting with fuel, food and gifts from the local people. We were, as our scouts were, invited to stay and our diplomatic team were given a small building to begin utilising as a permanent embassy. We departed in as good order as we arrived, though perhaps a little fatter around the middle.

    18y07m00w - Our arrival in Inthe was in slightly worse order than that in Natoko, with nine hours before first and last, but the force was nonetheless assembled in short order. Again, we saw the same business in this system, and we followed a pilot ship faithfully to berths provided over their main world. Once again, our diplomatic outreach was welcomed faithfully and in good cheer, as four diplomats spread their efforts across eight disparate states that controlled the main world. I'm not sure how much we can expect from this odd little system but they're certainly a welcoming group of locals. They have a local fruit called a Stapberry that's utterly delicious fried. Once again, I am finding myself in command of a very comfortable mission. We left without any particular desire to do so, but the mission continues. Our logs thus far will be returned to Home on a courier before we continue to Menorb.

    18y08m01w - The courier Erato returns to Home with logs, sensor dumps and other intelligence. Further analysis reveals clear signs of stealth craft operating in both Natoko and Inthe on the edges of detectability by current ship sensors.

    18y09m02w - The courier Urania arrives in Home from Sector '01, -02' with the message that the Expeditionary Flotilla is now considered overdue and that no further messages from Vice-Marshall Gebara have been forthcoming. The commander of the ICfIII HSWS Korravai is unwilling to risk his ship and the ad-hoc fuelling depot without support.

    The HSWS must craft a response to the situation:
    [ ] Dispatch Orders to the force at Sector '01, -02'.
    [ ] Dispatch Forces with fresh Orders.
    [ ] Dispatch the Scout Flotilla to find the Vice-marshall.
    [ ] Other - write in.

    Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
     
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    • The northern systems remain friendly. Too friendly? "Please make yourselves entirely at home (and give us your ship too? 🥺👉👈)" remains eyebrow-raising.

    Secretly hostile? Under the thumbs of dangerous neighbours and adopting a policy of desperately cheerful appeasement of visitors? Exactly what they look like but being used as a stalking horse by high-tech pirates?

    If the expeditionary fleet has been eaten with no escapees I don't think we have anything with the firepower to go in after them, but a cautious probing in the manner of the Hermosan Crisis might turn up some info without too much risk.

    Alternately, there might be something funny going on with the food. "Left without any particular desire to do so" - drugged goodies incapacitating the crews? Psychic powers lulling the fleet into captivity? Or perhaps there's nothing sinister and it's just another expression of how pleasant the place is.

    Perhaps the good admiral is simply hungover and can't answer the phone just now?

    Or maybe some negative space wedgie has launched them all to the Delta Quadrant and they're busy pulling a Xenophon. But the stealth ships stalking them are extremely sus and suggest a simpler explanation.

    The following was written pre-update.

    The daughters remain vague and sus. A different flavour of problem to the current authorities but still a problem.

    As for the scout ships, I presume it's a matter of capabilities.

    The DSS is built for astronomy specifically, particularly long-range observation. It's not equipped at all for hazards.

    The other surveyor type is upgraded but long in the tooth, and was built with what I can only describe as capitalist sabotage. It's fast and survivable, but not especially great for surveying. In its original role as a first-in scout into unknown systems that's fine, but recent surveys seem to have thrown out the Heimdall lesson in favour of a policy of using whatever ship is convenient and hope for the best.
     
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    I am somewhat skeptical that something could wipe out the entire task force (CFA, an IC-II, and all of the frigates, and the Ba Kim) in a bolt from the blue attack unless they were taken entirely unawares, which to be fair is not impossible.

    Might be best to send the scout flotilla in a run through empty hexes to jump straight into Menorb from deep space.
     
    Okay, this serves as a good reminder that we're clearly not being paranoid enough. I suggest, similar to our original two-scout doctrine, that it's probably worth tasking one ship to lurk at the outer edges of the system following any significant concentration of force, only making brief contact with the fleet to refuel when required (and doing so while the fleet is otherwise unoccupied). This should dramatically increase our chances of getting direct news of anything untoward befalling said fleet, rather than being stuck in the dark as we are now.
     
    I think the minelayer might be excessively economised. It doesn't need to be a flying resort but lengthy trips on a ship almost purpose-built to be unpleasant don't seem like a quality assignment. Is stripping out artificial gravity truly a necessary degree of corner-cutting? At least this one doesn't have doubled-up barracks - I suppose that's something.
     
    Pyrelight said:
    I think the minelayer might be excessively economised. It doesn't need to be a flying resort but lengthy trips on a ship almost purpose-built to be unpleasant don't seem like a quality assignment. Is stripping out artificial gravity truly a necessary degree of corner-cutting? At least this one doesn't have doubled-up barracks - I suppose that's something.
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    The hamster wheel keeps the crew spaces in at least some level of artificial gravity. This is also for in-system stuff, so every month they can get out and spend a while on shore leave. If we rotate crews, a one month on/two month off system shouldn't be too bad.
     
    Pyrelight said:
    Alternately, there might be something funny going on with the food. "Left without any particular desire to do so" - drugged goodies incapacitating the crews? Psychic powers lulling the fleet into captivity? Or perhaps there's nothing sinister and it's just another expression of how pleasant the place is.
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    That reminds me of "Kapitan Bomba" episode, about the silent ship drifting in space.

    The recovery team lands and finds ship crew in the brindge playing cards. "Why are you schmucks drifting around without control and do not answer on radio?" - "Because our ship control yoke had broken down. And radio."
     
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    Still. Maintaining multiple crews to make up for the boat being bad also seems wasteful. I know you don't exactly need top-quality spacers to tootle around a star system and push mines out an airlock but that has to add up after a while.

    I guess it could work as like a training cruise/hazing thing for cadets? See if they'll go apeshit under stress, extensive practical microgravity experience etc. before moving up to the real navy.

    Still weird when I think almost every ship in the quest has had artificial gravity.
     
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    I'd agree that whilst we want these minelayers to be cheap and cheerful, the current design seems needlessly spartan.

    We can't leave the disappearance of our expeditionary fleet unanswered. I'd suggest a significant desployment of forces north to search for their whereabouts. I'd also agree that these northern systems seem suspiciously friendly, particularly with reports of stealth vessels in their systems.
     
    The minelayer has 1G gravity even when not under thrust, it has staterooms and common areas of equivalent ratio to any larger ship. It's not unusually uncomfortable, it just doesn't have artificial gravity in its massive mine bay.
     
    Wiadi said:
    Okay, this serves as a good reminder that we're clearly not being paranoid enough. I suggest, similar to our original two-scout doctrine, that it's probably worth tasking one ship to lurk at the outer edges of the system following any significant concentration of force, only making brief contact with the fleet to refuel when required (and doing so while the fleet is otherwise unoccupied). This should dramatically increase our chances of getting direct news of anything untoward befalling said fleet, rather than being stuck in the dark as we are now.
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    Yeah, might have to make that SOP. On the other hand, the commander is competent. It's entirely possible they've been detained by something that isn't enemy action (breakdown, local crisis, etc.). So hard to say.

    Main problem is where do we pull forces from to follow up?
     
    I don't think we can assume default malfeasance by our "friendly neighbors" northward, but we can't rule it out either. Plan to follow ASAP.
     
    Coyote Niff said:
    I don't think we can assume default malfeasance by our "friendly neighbors" northward, but we can't rule it out either. Plan to follow ASAP.
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    Let her cook.
    Pyrelight said:
    Still weird when I think almost every ship in the quest has had artificial gravity.
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    That's a mix of gravity plates being the "default" and us not pointing it out, and that a zero-G hull is only this economical when you either don't care about crew or have a spinning artificial gravity section that makes up a small percentage of the total size. When there are large percentages of the hull that we want crewed, it's not as economically favourable, and things like armour makes this even worse (although AFAIK it's still cheaper up to like, 95% rotating mass to non-rotating mass).
     
    What exactly is the composition of the force that we lost contact with? All I can gather is it's one CFA and five "other ships"
     
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    About 6k tons and none of them are slouches.

    It's entirely possible they got jumped, but they would have had to be very deep in system to not have a chance of at least one getting away and it would have had to be a very sudden surprise attack.

    Or it's possible they fought off an attack, but are unwilling to leave a damaged ship behind or something similar.

    Or they're just detained by something. We are in the dark.
     
    Since the enemy ships are way too stealthy, and admiral could be unaware that they were present in both first systems that his force visited (it were our analytics who found the signatures in data, vice-admiral wasn't reporting them); and since they are very quick, and seem to also have good evasion because of this - they could ambush our ships, close the distance quickly and board them.

    It could be useful to have some of our Aslan mercs as marines on our ships, if we are to send some new force north.
     
    What's the pilot economy on system-bound ships, does it take fewer pilots? Cause if it does we should definitely make system defense ships so that we can free up our pilot hungry ships for outbound missions. with we should also design a tug for moving ships between systems.
     
    SCPAIC said:
    What's the pilot economy on system-bound ships, does it take fewer pilots? Cause if it does we should definitely make system defense ships so that we can free up our pilot hungry ships for outbound missions. with we should also design a tug for moving ships between systems.
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    It takes no pilots at all.

    And yeah, I'm a big fan of a big tug. I'd prefer stations to system defence boats, because I think minefields are OP, but it's largely academic.
     
    ~2kdT boats deployed in distant systems. Is it worth working up a hypothetical minimal viable jump lifeship for when you need to scuttle and scuttle away? Probably not for the minelayers, but if the, uh, expeditionary boat? concept comes up again you might be able to fit some clamps to optionally mount a tin can with a jump drive and some low berths in the cargo bay. 100-200dT might be a stretch now, but a bigger minelayer might like it as an option for remote work.

    Don't think it'd be useful in many roles - I can't see it working for battle riders, for instance - but it might mean you could risk leaving a big boat unsupported. Or an outpost.

    I'm thinking a really minimal lifeship here, maybe fractional m and enough j to hit a known-secure system, if it can be done cheaply enough and reliably enough to leave sitting on the shelf for a year or two at a time.

    This may not fit with the tech - I know it wouldn't work out in my preferred Traveller ship design system.
     
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    C_Z said:
    It takes no pilots at all.

    And yeah, I'm a big fan of a big tug. I'd prefer stations to system defence boats, because I think minefields are OP, but it's largely academic.
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    The excel screenshot in the threadmark says it takes one, or is that a "normal" pilot instead of the specifically limited to only a few dozen per millions Pilot?
     
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