Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

I think this is a bit underappreciated notion, in regards to the "let's invade Menorb"/"let's raid Menorb for our prisoners" proposals. The multiple-billions population is a big issue.

...

We've already sent out the Scout fleet, or haven't we?

I agree. My plan is about the prison world that we found near the other northern planets and never followed up on. It's an obviously weird thing and the QM even highlighted it again in a comment from the citizen's council a few updates ago.

You are right about the scout fleet, I misremembered what the qm was asking us about them. editing plan...
 
I agree. My plan is about the prison world that we found near the other northern planets and never followed up on. It's an obviously weird thing and the QM even highlighted it again in a comment from the citizen's council a few updates ago.
Yeah nah, I was talking about the other plan in regards to invasion.

The issue with the prison planet is that again we are not 100% sure that the prison planet blongs to the Stealth Enemy, and not to someone else (I mean it's extremely likely that prison planet belongs to them, much more likely than it was about those three populated planets. But still there is a bit of a chance for a mistake).

upd

I've added "ask Inthe/natoko about the pison planet" into the diplomacy plan - I think our scout fleet would investigate the prison planet, but in any case we should get some info on it from these neighbours first - and if we have good indications that it belongs to the enemy, then make incursion into it later.
(I'm also not sure if we can at once give the scouts good escort, give the diplomats the good escort and make an incursion into the prison system, at the same time/)
 
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I think we're just really unlikely to get anything major from more diplomacy with Natoko and Inthe. We've now visited them each at least twice and left diplomatic missions that are presumably reporting back by courier (or could do).

I also don't think we gain much by fighting the stealth ship operators in their systems, if those ships even choose to engage us.

We can't credibly defend Natoko or Inthe from the stealth ship operators, so if the planet-dwellers are under duress then we probably are just worryingly bringing attention to them.

If we go to the prison planet then we're trusting in surprise and military might to carry us through the mystery box and going directly for the location that is most likely to have some kind of solid lead. It's also a system that we can potentially occupy as a base without cooperating with the confusing northerners.

I think the other good option is to build up our forces and waystations while we wait for the scouts to come back.
 
I've added "ask Inthe/natoko about the pison planet" into the diplomacy plan - I think our scout fleet would investigate the prison planet, but in any case we should get some info on it from these neighbours first - and if we have good indications that it belongs to the enemy, then make incursion into it later.
(I'm also not sure if we can at once give the scouts good escort, give the diplomats the good escort and make an incursion into the prison system, at the same time/)

Thanks for adding that to your plan. Your one is more likely to win, so at least this way we may get some info.

The scouts have got only like 3 warships and all of them escorts.

I don't think we should escort any other diplomats, just courier boats at unpredictable locations that will talk to the established missions by radio.

That leaves almost all of our forces available for other missions (and all of the ones that would be much good in a fight with the stealth ships, because we have curiously not sent any significant non-missile weapons with the scouts, iirc)
 
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I'm going to throw my hat into the ring. It's a modification of @Josiah's plan, since I think taking an extra two months of construction time to update the ships being built is smart, and I explicitly want to conduct a show of force in Menorb and construct reinforced forward bases.

[X] Plan: Speak Softly
-[x] Prisoners - We should work to find a diplomatic solution to the Menorb issue. We have the reasons to believe that at least some of our crewmembers could be in Menorbs custody, rather than the Stealth Enemy's custody. We should make the situation clear with them (and at least make sure that Menorbans do not have our people). This should be backed by a passive show of force.
-[x] send reasonably defended (meaning, able to fight-off the several stealth ships) diplomatic team to Imthe and Natoko. Discuss the Stealth Enemy with their governments, relay the info on our engahements with them. Ask them if they have information on the supposed "prison planet". Persuade their governments to send some diplomats along with ours to Menorb (to mediate), to learn how the events looked from their side. Parley for our crewpeople freedom if the Menorbans keep them.
-[x] Keep in mind what happened in Menorb, try to persuade the locals that we are not occupiers, while still keeping our ships defended. Have the strong fleet but behave politely and unthreateningly
-[x] Hulls - Sadly we must consider them lost to us for now.
-[x] Enemy - We should plan to learn about who the enemy are and where did they come from. Without this info, it is useless to plan for any further steps - too many variables.
-[x] We should construct forward basing to extend our ability to deploy far away from Home.
-[x] we should plan to keep our own systems defended from the enemy penetration - little doubts that they would also send some scouts in our direction.
-[x] we should upgrade the ships currently under construction with newly acquired technology. CFAs should have their computers be upgraded to handle greater software requirements and add a backup computer, replace some non combat essential crew with virtual crewmembers, add additional virtual sensor operators, upgrade the sensors, add a backup bridge that acts as a specialized control centre, add repair drones to allow for mid-combat repairs, harden electronics against EMP attack, and slightly expand the hangar space to allow for the CFAs to carry multiple unmanned sensor drones if possible. The minelayer should be modified to be entirely unmanned.
 
How about we design a much simpler military transport? Just something to get boots on the ground maybe some close support, and nothing more. I.E K.I.S.S. that way we could have a cheap and relatively easy to produce. Mind you I'm thinking this would be to supplement our current transport not replace it.
 
How about we design a much simpler military transport? Just something to get boots on the ground maybe some close support, and nothing more. I.E K.I.S.S. that way we could have a cheap and relatively easy to produce. Mind you I'm thinking this would be to supplement our current transport not replace it.

We are due for an updated MAT (better armor, etc.); a simpler bulk transport for "not combat landings" would probably be handy, although in theory we can do that with the modular conveyor, just need to build a transport module.
 
I'm not sure we should be planning for lots of opposed combat landings. If we're doing that then maybe we've made a doctrinal failure somewhere. A modernised MAT would be fine, but not a priority for me.

Besides, if we build army transports then the army may start pushing more for them to get used, and getting the army involved is a good way to get a lot of our own citizens killed.
 
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I'm not sure we should be planning for lots of opposed combat landings. If we're doing that then maybe we've made a doctrinal failure somewhere. A modernised MAT would be fine, but not a priority for me.

Besides, if we build army transports then the army may start pushing more for them to get used, and getting the army involved is a good way to get a lot of our own citizens killed.

What the MAT is good for is the kind of smash and grab raid we just did in orbit; the MAT allows us to quickly launch about half a battalion of marines in assault / boarding shuttles, followed about ten minutes later by the second half after we stage the next group of shuttles for launch. We may not plan on doing a lot of planetary landings, but being able to seize orbitals, ships, and orbital industries very quickly is useful to us in the long run.

Similarly it'd be useful for orbit-to-ground raids as well. We're not an army of occupation, true, but the MAT allows us the flexibility to do stuff that the marine contingents on our warships can't do due to design limitations.

MAT also carries mass driver ortillery that's handy for targeting hardened ground installations.
 
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I like the MAT and its mission of raids and boarding. I'm opposed to investing in a transport to support more of an invasion mission. For funding, I would prioritise a rationalised defense and garrison system highest, then idk.

[x] plan how about that mysterious prison planet?
-[x] send reinforced expeditionary fleet to "prison" world with MAT to effect rapid negotiation, possible prison break or heist. We want actionable intelligence on wtf is up in the north and to free prisoners/disrupt operations if this world is operated by stealth ship operators. If we raid, then additional secondary objectives: steal tech, provoke the stealth ship operators into a fleet engagement if the prison planet is important to them. Mission to begin as soon as sufficient forces and especially sensor upgrades are available.
-[x] check in with northern diplomats by courier boat if we have not been doing so already. diplomats are to sound out natoko and inthe for stealth ship influence and mediation with menorb, appraise those govs of our operations in menorb if safe to do so
-[x] war games to test defences of home, cassalon, xyri. invest in more defences if we can. scare those govs into more funding if necessary.
-[x] try to get crew back from menorb diplomatically, but don't prioritise as unlikely to be successful. Hulls to be accepted as lost
-[x] assess caturix for utility vs stealth ship operators. is it worth modernising and redeploying?

[X] Plan: Speak Softly
 
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Ultimately I expect a full-on interplanetary invasion just isn't possible without suborning a local faction or the threat and practice of orbital bombardment reprisals.

Or a sort of "conquest" that involves keeping half a continent away from any significant settlement.

@4WheelSword
IIRC gas giant fueling scoops and on-board refining were TL10 and built into hulls of that level - does this mean our 3rd generation ships are capable of self-refuelling? Or only the new-build hulls? Or only the newest ships like, I assume, the patrol carrier? Ta.

[X] Plan: Speak Softly
Agreed, generally. I've had a similar hunch.

This assumes that they have mainline combatants. If they're not a state-level actor (which is possible!), then they could just operate these raiding forces. It's possible to build a self-contained shipyard that'll jump around between systems, even; you don't really need a homeworld beyond trying to maintain a large enough gene pool.

If I were someone who had a miniscule economic base but was technologically advanced, and was for some reason convinced that conflict is inevitable, I'd probably maintain a strategy close to what they did prior to the Deep Hope incident. These constant raids and poking are not militarily efficient, but they could be seen as effective if the intent is to serve as a reminder to the people in the north that if they try and build a navy that can contest the northern aggressors, a stealth ship might show up and blow up the shipyard. If Natoko were left alone for a decade, maybe they'd be able to build up a defensive fleet, but the constant watching means they can never get close, so they'll never bother to contest the (weak) hegemony of the northern aggressor. If you're following that strategy, it's more important to keep building stealthy raiders instead of building a battle line until the HSWS shows up as an outside context problem.

Of course, these also could be the scouts of a large empire. I'm just trying to get across that we don't know if they're following traditional Mahanian tactics or trying something different.

My gut feel is that this will always be the case. Space is simply really, really big; an enemy fleet which doesn't want to fight can disengage with ease. If we want to get them to fight, we need to find the schwerpunkt and start applying pressure to it.

It's also interesting that they picked Menorb, the technologically backwards and impoverished system, as the site of the ambush. There may be something to that.

It's also interesting that there was a "shithole planet" that threatened our ships with nukes when we jumped in to the northwest. They may be victims of the northern aggressors too; maybe we should talk to them?

  1. Agreed.
  2. My concern there is that we may end up waking up an automated defence system or stepping on the toes of a larger power, and I'm not sure if there's much we can learn quickly from a (possibly automated) prison.
  3. Idk, the first expedition found torpedoes useful. I'd suggest we standardize on the pairing of CFA-Bs and CFA-Ds for the Flt IIs, though, and probably bias it towards Ds.
  4. The minimum tonnage is about 130 tons. I whipped this up the day before yesterday as a proof-of-concept of a boat that'd provide a LMDC and a sensor platform that can float around forever until it fires:
    Making it harder to zap from range is difficult, though, because there's a lot of different threats to protect against, and each costs tonnage and money. Want to protect it against missiles and torpedoes (beyond what can be done with EWAR)? You need point defence, which needs another hardpoint, which raises the tonnage up to 200 tons and drives the cost up. Want to defend it against laser-armed fighters? You need point defence again, but also armour and reflec coatings (both of which are costly). Want protection against ion weapons? That's 1.5x the cost of anything that consumes power. In this case, being the minimum viable product is meant to provide strength in numbers, where the loss of a few railguns is no big deal. I'm not sure we can, on a reasonable budget, make these survivable enough to justify the cost without turning them into CFA-Ds.
  5. Similar to above, I'd actually argue for a minimum cost minelayer if we choose to do that. Minelayers need to poke around the edge of defences on their own, which makes them inherently vulnerable. They also have a lot of tonnage devoted to cargo, which makes a warship version inefficient. I think it'd be better to just build a modified version of our in-system minelayer that has no crew and treat them as semi-disposable things that get carted in by an uparmoured modular conveyor a few hours or days after the main force arrives (and then the modular conveyor gets out of there, since even with armour it's not a warship).
  6. Yes, and they might be good. They're worse than crewed fighters in a 1v1 fight due to virtual crew not being as skilled, but they should be smaller for the same paper stats, cheaper, and disposable.
  7. Sorta! See my post here for commentary on stations which can, potentially, produce things for us. I was planning it as a sort of forward operating base that could sustain itself without a link to Home, but we could also tweak it to instead produce mines. Actual spacecraft are more expensive to produce, though, and it's not feasible to make those unmanned.
The comment on polity structure is a good one. I'd forgotten that a Homeworld-style mothership doctrine is entirely workable. That could be another reason to specialise in long-ranged ships, to operate out of unexpected backwater systems or take long detours around patrols.

That would make it even more likely that they'd have combat ships, though: the main difference would be more guns instead of fuel and endurance, and being reliant on vulnerable mobile infrastructure would make it even more important to have a face-melting brick to throw at attackers.

If they are doing the hegemony approach you suggest, that would suggest the reason for the distant raids is specifically to identify outsider states who might have enough firepower to flip the table. Though, doing your "scouting" in a way that would directly motivate such a power into coming over to throw you out an airlock seems counterproductive in comparison to making yourself look like too much trouble to bother contesting. Unless you believe in a Darwinian galaxy where any agency with the power to flatten its neighbour will inevitably do that no matter what.

So you reckon they might have hit us in Menorb because otherwise, now that we knew the right questions to ask, the locals know too much to allow us to interact? Might also have been that that was the obvious next destination though - one planet might be a one off, two establishes a pattern, and then they concentrate to hit us in the next.

Another possibility might be that system in the West with the overdeveloped shipyards or another like them - after all, a system could be riddled with stealth ships and we wouldn't know at the time. That's another method - present yourself as just one more planet helpless in the grip of a shadowy enemy. But if Menorb is sky castles this is just rampant paranoia.

Though, come to think of it; looking at the map I'd thought Menorb was on the east side of those three northern systems, but if we assume the enemy is based north-northeast of us and north of the Aslan that would mean Menorb is especially distant from them, while if they're more north-northwest that would have visiting them more threatening as they're closer to home and more visited by the Aggressors. Unless they are NNE and it's specifically because Menorb is so distant that they visit it a lot for resupply...

2. - True, but I assume anyone in a prison will have some idea of who put them there and for what.
But given how ruthless the Aggressors are, if it is their prison they might just have it set up to liquidate the prisoners if an intruder punches through the defence net.

4. - Would it work to build gun platforms as tiny asteroid stations, make them look like a bunch of rocks we dumped around to make it harder to spot our mines and fighters? Particularly in reference to your factory-refinery concept.
Sensor processing makes it vulnerable to jamming which is the natural response to a minefield but I guess the idea is that with something like this by the time you know you should be jamming it there's already a half dozen gauss slugs addressed to you and in the mail.

6. - I'm generally not sure how survivable our fighters are. Smaller ones can deliver more ordnance and apparently laser fighters are effective if they can get in under point defence at extreme close range, but they seem fragile. But bigger fighters on a carrier mean you just end up with less targets... Maybe worth some more wargames? In any case a swarm of light drones seem like a good way to save a lot of costs. Maybe humans in strike craft might be better as something like sensor and electronic warfare shuttles? A more survivable force multiplier and local command role instead. No-one cries if a squadron of torpedo drones expends itself.

On the ship refit, sensor drones in particular seem like they'll be key, assuming they can spot through stealth. They'd also allow for the indirect torpedo attacks in orbitals that kept bring brought up around the time of the MMV.

Though cutting crew sizes might be bad for maintenance and endurance in the face of casualties. But building forward support would balance that.

Mobile resourcing, manufacturing and maintenance craft generally seem good to have. Would they be better as separate ships or a single mothership?
Or perhaps not even a ship at all - we could use the jump tug to move a station around, then send it out to fetch asteroids to feed the beast. Though that would add a bunch of points of failure that a unitary mothership wouldn't risk.

Interesting that the new FSS seems to have some of that capability, and it looks surprisingly cheap. Though given how fragile it is maybe there's a role for something more survivable that can give a fleet its own refuelling capability? Seems like it wouldn't have to be all that big. Unless that's gas giant refining capability rather than ice asteroid.
 
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Ultimately I expect a full-on interplanetary invasion just isn't possible without suborning a local faction or the threat and practice of orbital bombardment reprisals.

Or a sort of "conquest" that involves keeping half a continent away from any significant settlement.

@4WheelSword
IIRC gas giant fueling scoops and on-board refining were TL10 and built into hulls of that level - does this mean our 3rd generation ships are capable of self-refuelling? Or only the new-build hulls? Or only the newest ships like, I assume, the patrol carrier? Ta.

[X] Plan: Speak Softly

The comment on polity structure is a good one. I'd forgotten that a Homeworld-style mothership doctrine is entirely workable. That could be another reason to specialise in long-ranged ships, to operate out of unexpected backwater systems or take long detours around patrols.

That would make it even more likely that they'd have combat ships, though: the main difference would be more guns instead of fuel and endurance, and being reliant on vulnerable mobile infrastructure would make it even more important to have a face-melting brick to throw at attackers.

If they are doing the hegemony approach you suggest, that would suggest the reason for the distant raids is specifically to identify outsider states who might have enough firepower to flip the table. Though, doing your "scouting" in a way that would directly motivate such a power into coming over to throw you out an airlock seems counterproductive in comparison to making yourself look like too much trouble to bother contesting. Unless you believe in a Darwinian galaxy where any agency with the power to flatten its neighbour will inevitably do that no matter what.

So you reckon they might have hit us in Menorb because otherwise, now that we knew the right questions to ask, the locals know too much to allow us to interact? Might also have been that that was the obvious next destination though - one planet might be a one off, two establishes a pattern, and then they concentrate to hit us in the next.

Another possibility might be that system in the West with the overdeveloped shipyards or another like them - after all, a system could be riddled with stealth ships and we wouldn't know at the time. That's another method - present yourself as just one more planet helpless in the grip of a shadowy enemy. But if Menorb is sky castles this is just rampant paranoia.

Though, come to think of it; looking at the map I'd thought Menorb was on the east side of those three northern systems, but if we assume the enemy is based north-northeast of us and north of the Aslan that would mean Menorb is especially distant from them, while if they're more north-northwest that would have visiting them more threatening as they're closer to home and more visited by the Aggressors. Unless they are NNE and it's specifically because Menorb is so distant that they visit it a lot for resupply...

2. - True, but I assume anyone in a prison will have some idea of who put them there and for what.
But given how ruthless the Aggressors are, if it is their prison they might just have it set up to liquidate the prisoners if an intruder punches through the defence net.

4. - Would it work to build gun platforms as tiny asteroid stations, make them look like a bunch of rocks we dumped around to make it harder to spot our mines and fighters? Particularly in reference to your factory-refinery concept.
Sensor processing makes it vulnerable to jamming which is the natural response to a minefield but I guess the idea is that with something like this by the time you know you should be jamming it there's already a half dozen gauss slugs addressed to you and in the mail.

6. - I'm generally not sure how survivable our fighters are. Smaller ones can deliver more ordnance and apparently laser fighters are effective if they can get in under point defence at extreme close range, but they seem fragile. But bigger fighters on a carrier mean you just end up with less targets... Maybe worth some more wargames? In any case a swarm of light drones seem like a good way to save a lot of costs. Maybe humans in strike craft might be better as something like sensor and electronic warfare shuttles? A more survivable force multiplier and local command role instead. No-one cries if a squadron of torpedo drones expends itself.

On the ship refit, sensor drones in particular seem like they'll be key, assuming they can spot through stealth. They'd also allow for the indirect torpedo attacks in orbitals that kept bring brought up around the time of the MMV.

Though cutting crew sizes might be bad for maintenance and endurance in the face of casualties. But building forward support would balance that.

Mobile resourcing, manufacturing and maintenance craft generally seem good to have. Would they be better as separate ships or a single mothership?
Or perhaps not even a ship at all - we could use the jump tug to move a station around, then send it out to fetch asteroids to feed the beast. Though that would add a bunch of points of failure that a unitary mothership wouldn't risk.

Interesting that the new FSS seems to have some of that capability, and it looks surprisingly cheap. Though given how fragile it is maybe there's a role for something more survivable that can give a fleet its own refuelling capability? Seems like it wouldn't have to be all that big. Unless that's gas giant refining capability rather than ice asteroid.
Fuelling scoops are built into streamlined hulls, but don't have refineries. I wanted to put them on a separate vessel because then it can be uncrewed, unarmed, and unarmoured, saving costs. It also frees up our warships to do things other than sit around collecting fuel.

The polity structure comment is more to suggest that we should question all assumptions we're making. Things could end up being very weird.

I'm not strictly suggesting they're doing what I outlined, I just wanted to put it out as an option that'd fit the pattern. If it were the case, though, then the attack on Deep Hope was probably a mistake - they misjumped, panicked, and now there are heads rolling somewhere.

I was speculating they might have picked Menorb because it's the weakest of the three, and less likely to be able to interfere or protest them jumping us. If they have TL12 stealth, the TL7 Menorb sensors basically have no hope of spotting them.

I don't recall that system in the West - what's the coordinates?

4. - Yeah, that was another option. They're pretty comparable; I opted for the slightly lighter dispersed hull instead of the more durable buffered planetoid.

6. - I don't know either. From skimming the fleet combat rules, I think all fighters are considered equally durable after getting hit, although things can prevent them from being hit in the first place I think.

Sensor refits are slightly worse at detecting a stealthed spacecraft than the onboard sensors of the CFA (you'll get +1 or +2 from the sensor operator), but in exchange, they can be disperesed more broadly and can be stationary while the rest of the fleet moves (which is necessary for the extendable arrays and nets). Since each ship also makes its own sensor check, an "ASW helicopter" means we get to roll twice, I think.

We're currently using virtual gunners as backups in case the existing gunners die, so I assume that the virtual crew can also keep doing their job if the human engineers all die. I'm also adding repair drones, which allow for remote repairs to be done.

I made the resourcing, manufacturing, and maintenance craft a collection of standard sections that could dock together to form a larger station. That way, they can be carried into place by a modular conveyor, then connected together as needed. I suggested combining the mining and manufacturing modules together, though, because it'd simplify the production chain.

We should not use jump-capable ships to tow asteroids to a station that can't jump itself. Jump drives and the associated equipment cost a lot.
 
I think this is a bit underappreciated notion, in regards to the "let's invade Menorb"/"let's raid Menorb for our prisoners" proposals. The multiple-billions population is a big issue.

First, in terms of full invasion, we are capable of putting a battalion of marines on the ground at once. The planet can simply drown them in bodies, if we would try to conquer them with this force - even if our troop transport would immediately go back Home for a second battalion.

Second, for the raid - we do not know where exactly our prisoners are being kept (there is even a chance that Menorbans no longer have them - the Stealth enemy could ship them away at some point). And multi-billion population means a lot of possible places to hide a few dozens of prisoners.
Just given the realities of interstellar logistics, I don't think anyone's expecting boots on the ground to be the determining factor for anything except the smallest of colonies; That's what the orbital superiority is for. Now that's probably not ideal for conquest, but we don't really want or need to conquer anybody - Home is still a hereditary plutocracy, and I'm sure they'd be more than happy with just a fleet anchorage and a billions-strong market to feed our corporations. It's the same deal with the raid: Even on a Home-sized planet there'd be dozens of cities and no real way to sweep them on the ground, but we don't want to be kicking in doors to begin with. We simply sit in orbit and demand the return of our prisoners while whacking any silos that open up on us until they tell us where to find them and we send down the marines to pick them up.
 
We simply sit in orbit and demand the return of our prisoners while whacking any silos that open up on us until they tell us where to find them and we send down the marines to pick them up.
Well, this assumes they would tell us. And what if they would decide to keep mum and instead spend a year or so building more launchers that our fleet would be able to intercept (and they probably don't need to dig silos for that - they can use sea ships, railway trains or big trucks as platforms)?

We've already raided them and bombarded their silos - and they did not surrender. This indicates they won't do so second time, too.


probably not ideal for conquest, but we don't really want or need to conquer anybody - Home is still a hereditary plutocracy, and I'm sure they'd be more than happy with just a fleet anchorage and a billions-strong market to feed our corporations.
Well this again assumes that once we control their orbit, they would surrender and open their market. And they could probably ignore us instead, unless their planet is not self-sufficient (but our planets all are, so their is probably too)
 
Well, this assumes they would tell us. And what if they would decide to keep mum and instead spend a year or so building more launchers that our fleet would be able to intercept (and they probably don't need to dig silos for that - they can use sea ships, railway trains or big trucks as platforms)?

We've already raided them and bombarded their silos - and they did not surrender. This indicates they won't do so second time, too.

Well this again assumes that once we control their orbit, they would surrender and open their market. And they could probably ignore us instead, unless their planet is not self-sufficient (but our planets all are, so their is probably too)
I mean, we fundamentally have exactly 2 policy levers we can apply to Menorb at this point: asking politely, and dropping rocks down the gravity well. We asked politely, and they ignored us. We moved in to recover the Apolake, and they opened fire at us. At no point did we actually try to assert control over the Menorbits, we moved in, attempted to retrieve our ship, and left, only shooting back at the silos that fired at us first. At this point Menorb has picked a fight with Home, and while we will certainly ask politely again and be ignored again either way, any return to the system would be in the form of an actual offensive meant to strike back and apply pressure rather than a hit-and-run that didn't even want to include the hit part until they started shooting. It's not going to be a matter of "sitting in orbit for a year doing nothing while Menorb ignores our messages and builds more nukes".
 
I mean, we fundamentally have exactly 2 policy levers we can apply to Menorb at this point: asking politely, and dropping rocks down the gravity well.
Yeah, what I'm saying is that we are probably very sharply limited in rock-dropping by our "Article IX - Convention on the Treatment of Civilians and Settlements".
Menorbans most likely do not know about it (unless our prisoners told them, which is not impossible), and this is a question of "would we be able to intimidate them enough before they'll realize that we can't really bomb their population centers".
Judging from their previous behaviour, I am not sure.

So we could be limited to asking politely only - or would have to build many more troop carrier ships to conduct some planetary operations.

That's about recovery of our crew - I don't think that even successful orbital intimidation would create a reliable "market access", not long term (they will align with any suitable enemy of ours if we go for this this, at the first possibility. The power of spite is an incredible thing - and while terror can overrule the spite, we are not able to create a lot of terror due to our articles of war.)
 
Yeah, what I'm saying is that we are probably very sharply limited in rock-dropping by our "Article IX - Convention on the Treatment of Civilians and Settlements".
Menorbans most likely do not know about it (unless our prisoners told them, which is not impossible), and this is a question of "would we be able to intimidate them enough before they'll realize that we can't really bomb their population centers".
Judging from their previous behaviour, I am not sure.

So we could be limited to asking politely only - or would have to build many more troop carrier ships to conduct some planetary operations.

That's about recovery of our crew - I don't think that even successful orbital intimidation would create a reliable "market access", not long term (they will align with any suitable enemy of ours if we go for this this, at the first possibility. The power of spite is an incredible thing - and while terror can overrule the spite, we are not able to create a lot of terror due to our articles of war.)

There's a lot we can do on the scale between "do nothing" and "indiscriminate bombing of cities". The point of a show of force is to indcate that either we can do enough to oppose a northern aggressor, and they shouldn't just ally because they were intimidated into doing so, or if they freely joined the fight, to suggest to them that we can be enough of a headache to not be worth it. Striking at remote targets like natural resource extraction sites after broadcasting a warning well in advance, for example, would be both in line with Article II and Article IX, and enough of a headache that it'd severely degrade the economy. Imagine a world like the late 20th century Earth, except you've got no access to underground mining because someone's blowing it all up?
 
Striking at remote targets like natural resource extraction sites after broadcasting a warning well in advance, for example, would be both in line with Article II and Article IX, and enough of a headache that it'd severely degrade the economy. Imagine a world like the late 20th century Earth, except you've got no access to underground mining because someone's blowing it all up?
Not insignificant amount of Earth's mines are very close to (or sometimes even inside) towns and cities, so they would probably retain access to at least some of them, to be pedantic.

We also don't know if they are aware of existence of the norther aggressor. They also may not see them as aggressor. Maybe we are "unprovoked aggressor" to them. We don't have enough info.

And in latter case, if they would believe themselves being in the right (and us - being an unprovoked conqueror) - well, this would be a meme result.
 
If these people are 1980's analog techwise... not gonna lie we don't have to actually drop any actual ordinance on them. Just hit their critical infrastructure with EMP warheads until the planetary economy grinds to a halt. Of course we'd take care to not hit overtly civilian targets like hospitals and such but identifying large scale industrial districts shouldn't be hard by visual and measured pollution levels and land/sea traffic visual from orbit.
Even if we can target only 1/10 of their global industry it would have severe economic impacts given we're also "supposedly" blockading them from galactic trade. Not to mention I doubt most of their military hardware can survive back to back direct hits from Ion warheads with their primitive hardening.
Plus we're not leaving behind any deadly things like radiation and civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum outside whatever people are unlucky enough to be in things like a plane that was too close.

Any direct invasion is undoubtfully going to cause civilian casualties and the way I see it this is the easiest way to force them to submit without risking the lives of both sides armies and the civilians of the planet.
 
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