Hmm, my thought was that "a backdrop of void" is very different from a backdrop of the Sun. The sun puts out ridiculous amounts of energy, so seeing a ship with dead engines against it might be difficult. I know current tech can filter out celestial bodies, but doing that in space is different from doing that on Earth.
Ah, ok just had a slight misunderstanding on my part. Still with how big space actually is + the distance of most strategic objectives from suns, I kinda think that the chances of any sun being a backdrop of significant heat for any fight is very low.
It's hard to do exercises when we don't have a variery of different ships to test. I'll definitely agree to do some testing and war games once we have the Frigate design built, as well as some fighter prototypes of our own.
I've said this earlier, but combat capable small craft are only going to be usable from planetary surface or single-use until we get a dedicated ship/station to house them.
I've said this earlier, but combat capable small craft are only going to be usable from planetary surface or single-use until we get a dedicated ship/station to house them.
Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Aug 13, 2024 at 5:07 AM, finished with 98 posts and 17 votes.
[X] Plan Bulking out the Fleet, 500 tonne version
-[X] Yes, with the following modifications: Include deep scans of neighbouring hexes conducted from 03.-02.
-[X] Something Else: Lay down the hulls for two additional Interstellar Cruisers, a block IIa design incorporating recent technological advancements acquired from Xyri.
-[X] Something Else: Draft a new design and dedicate the remaining yard space to it. Point-defense frigate, with lasers as its primary armament as well as cutting edge targeting computers and sensors. The ship is envisaged as an anti-fighter ship to escort other vessels, with a secondary role of a patrol vessel for protecting trade routes and policing. Keep the weight at 500 tonnes, allowing one pilot to control the ship.
-[X] Let us consider small attack craft that could be carried aboard our ships.
[X] Plan Lander
-[X] Yes, go ahead.
-[X] A dedicated FLIF assault craft based on the MMV chassis: strip down particle beams for mass drivers for ortillery and replace torpedo mounts with missile racks. Strip weapon mounts for carrying capacity and if possible add a command section for coordinating landings (new computers etc). (3k tons).
-[X] An assault landing craft that can carry a platoon or company of FLIF from orbit to ground.
[X] OPLAN: Tsavo
-[X] Yes, go ahead.
-[X] A second MMV (3k tons, 1084.55MCr.)
-[X] A Fast Attack Craft (500 tons, circa 250MCr.)
-[X] Let us consider the potential for MMV variants.
-[X] Write-In: Produce a testflight example of the Bodkin Long Range Escort (850 tons, rotary missile-focused BVR striker for defending convoys and Scout missions.)
Does this scouting plan meet the approval of the Home Space Warfare Service? Yes, with the following modifications: Include deep scans of neighbouring hexes conducted from 03.-02. With 3,500 tons available (mostly in S'Taxu), how do we plan to start spending it on 08y00m00w? - Lay down the hulls for two additional Interstellar Cruisers, a block IIa design incorporating recent technological advancements acquired from Xyri.
- Draft a new design and dedicate the remaining yard space to it. Point-defense frigate. What are the next steps for the HSWS? Let us consider small attack craft that could be carried aboard our ships.
Deep Scouting
The new operational deployment plan for the second 'Northern' scouting mission adds the third of our Deep Space Surveyors out of rest and refit and puts her back on the line. Deploying on 07y11m00w, a group of six ships - the 1st Scouting Flotilla with an additional DSS - heads for Deep Hope and sets the mission clock from there.
00m00w - Task Force arrives in Deep Hope, synchronises mission clocks and sets start date of operation. Task force requires 720 tons of fuel for continued operations. FSS empties the Deep Hope mining stations tanks and task force maintains position in system for a week while additional fuel is harvested and processed aboard the station.
00m01w - HSWS Tishtrya departs Deep Hope for month long scanning operation in sector '-01,-02'. HSWS Uenuku departs Deep Hope for month long scanning operation in sector '00,-02'. Remainder of Task Force departs Deep Hope for sector '01,-02'.
00m02w - HSWS Tishtrya and HSWS Uenuku arrive on station and begin deep space scanning operations. Task force arrives in '01,-02' with an exit separation of ten hours. HSLS Ikapati dispenses 200 tons of fuel to her charges. She will not be able to remain on station in sector '01,-02' until the return of HSWS Aditi in an estimated two months and will need to return to Deep Hope for resupply before then. HSWS Janus & Culsans proceed to sector '02,-03' in company. HSWS Aditi proceeds to sector '02,-02'. Drop tank is unrecoverable.
Sector -01,-03 - Survey Index 4
Type M (Red) Main star with distant companion
Sector 00,-03 - Survey Index 4
Type G (Yellow) with close Type M companion
Sector 01,-03 - Survey Index 4
Type K (Orange) with distant companion
00m03w - HSWS Janus & Culsans arrive in sector '02,-03' to begin survey. They are met with automated repeater beacons warning the ships away from the systems 'main' world - a barely inhabited moon which is referred to as a correctional facility in the forcibly uploaded data packets. The two ships conduct a survey of the otherwise unremarkable system, studiously avoiding approaching the inhabited world. HSWS Aditi conducts jump to sector '03,-02'.
02,-03
Survey Index: 8 System Code: ?351???-? Star(s): Type M (Red Star) with distant binary companion Orbitals: 02-03-1 (Rocky planet, Mainworld moon), 02-03-1 (Planetoid Belt), 02-03-1 (Rocky planet), 02-03-1 (Rocky planet), 02-03-1 (Rocky planet in retrograde orbit) Comments: Multiple concerns raised by entry into system. First, who is using this system as a prison. Second, how did they bypass our computer security to upload a (harmless) data-packet. Third, what happens if we do approach the moon?
01m00w - HSWS Aditi arrives in sector '03,-02' and begins deep scanning operations. HSWS Janus & Culsans begin jump returning to rendezvous with HSLS Ikapati.
01m01w - HSWS Janus & Culsans rendezvous with HSLS Ikapati, tanking 140 tons of fuel from their 'big sister'. The trio begin a jump to Deep Hope. HSWS Tishtrya & Uenuku begin their own jumps to Deep Hope as well.
01m02w - Five ships rendezvous in Deep Hope. The surveyors - both Deep Space and Interstellar - tank off of the HSLS Ikapati before planning their jumps Homewards. Ikapati will spend a week docked with the Deep Hope station while her tanks and stores are refilled.
01m04w - HSLS Ikapati begins her jump to the rendezvous point to await the HSWS Aditi. HSWS Aditi departs her deep space scanning point, returning to sector '02,-02'.
01m05w - HSWS Aditi arrives in sector '02,-02', immediately performs a second jump to return to sector '01,-02'.
01m06w - HSWS Aditi arrives in sector '01,-02' and rendezvous' with HSLS Ikapati after two days of in system flight. The HSWS Aditi has spent a record breaking nine weeks without any contact with other ships or stations and has, in that time, performed four interstellar jumps. The pair plot a course for Deep Hope.
02m00w - The final elements of the Task Force arrive back in Home on 08y01m00w without much fanfare but with much relief. Star charts are updated (see following map) and a formal protest is lodged, detailing the many ways in which 1st Scout Flotilla could be reinforced but would the Service please do it formally rather than force the group to scramble for new operational parameters.
Construction - 08y00m00w
With the continuing refits to the block II standard, the Interstellar Cruisers are nonetheless seeing another reconstruction. The block IIa is to be a more advanced variant of the block II, utilising more advanced electronics and computers to improve on the design without sacrificing combat capabilities. The addition of combat-capable EW Jammers will allow for improved combatting of enemy attackers and a more powerful computer will allow the ships to run more powerful software - Virtual Gunner specifically will allow the ships computer to coordinate weapon systems that would otherwise be inoperable due to combat casualties.
Two ships of the class are laid down at a cost of 783.32MCr and will be completed circa 09y06m00w. They will be named the HSWS Neto and HSWS Ullr.
Meanwhile, feeling the dearth of ship hulls, the Navy commissions a study of a small, capable anti-fighter warship of just 500 tons. The following designs are submitted:
- Steenbeck Security offers a slow frigate design armed with four laser turrets, a major particle weapon and thin armour. It would be capable of a single jump on internal fuel and relies either on tankers or local fuelling services for extended range.
- Bearings Machinery takes advantage of their experience with powerful fusion reactors to provide a proposal for a fast 500 ton sloop armed solely with turrets but which is capable of multiple jumps while providing relative comfort for its crew.
- PMCA, a S'Taxu based military engineering department, submit a concept for a guided ordnance frigate that would use either a pair of missile or a pair of torpedo barbettes in order to provide oppressive fire capabilities for its weight class while also mounting enough laser turrets to ward off any aggressive small craft.
- A fourth submission which comes from inside the Navy would use a mixed battery of particle beam turret mounts and lasers in order to provide a strange balance of anti-fighter and anti-shipping firepower.
Please select two of the following choices:
[ ] Steenbecks submission.
[ ] BMF's submission.
[ ] PMCA's submission.
[ ] Internal submission.
[ ] A different design - write in.
Hornets & Needles
As it stands currently, the HSWS utilises exactly three small craft, all of them based on the same design. They are:
- A 90 ton standard shuttle, utilised for moving crew and cargo to and from the surface of a world when a ship cannot land itself (as most cannot). With cabin space for ten and forty-two tons of cargo capacity, it's an excellent mover and nothing else.
- A 90 ton boarding assault shuttle built on the same concept. With acceleration couches for 45 FLF infantry and the facilities to lock onto and cut into a hostile or uncooperative ship it has seen only a very small amount of use in the outer reaches of the Home system.
- The 90 ton 'Deep Diver' research shuttle, which replaces the armour layer with an external pressure hull, replaces the cockpit with a wide open command cabin and fills the ship with equipment for multi-day research expeditions.
However, the appearance of the Aslan (and the dreams of a thousand curious children wishing they could fly 'Constable Quasars Nova Fighter' in desperate battles against pirates and aliens) has ignited an interest in smaller craft than this. It would be more than possible to produce craft in the 10-30 ton scale that can operate at accelerations beyond those of larger ships, possibly being able to compensate for up to eight or nine G's. We are not clear on what weapons the Aslan craft used, but we would be able to fit a single laser or other turret weapon on such a craft.
Larger craft - bombers, strike aircraft and heavy fighters - would not be capable of the same speeds but could be carried through jump space with relative ease. The real question would be what doctrinal need the HSWS foresees.
Select up to two of the following concepts of which a prototype will be produced for the Service:
[ ] A 10-ton, bare minimum fighter, akin to the Aslan design.
[ ] A 25-ton FLF landing ship.
[ ] A 30-ton armoured fighter at maximum speed.
[ ] A 50-ton FLF assault ship.
[ ] A 50-ton Heavy Fighter.
[ ] A 70-ton Super-Heavy fighter with three fixed weapons.
[ ] Something else - write-in.
Please present any votes as a plan. Voting opens at
First, who is using this system as a prison. Second, how did they bypass our computer security to upload a (harmless) data-packet. Third, what happens if we do approach the moon?
Meanwhile, feeling the dearth of ship hulls, the Navy commissions a study of a small, capable anti-fighter warship of just 500 tons. The following designs are submitted:
- Bearings Machinery takes advantage of their experience with powerful fusion reactors to provide a proposal for a fast 500 ton sloop armed solely with turrets but which is capable of multiple jumps while providing relative comfort for its crew.
These submissions actually payed attention to the design request. The Steenbeck is slow, which is a big no-no for an escort craft, while the internal submission looks like it leaned a little too far away from the escort armament.
[ ] A 30-ton armoured fighter at maximum speed.
Speed is life for small craft mission profiles. Plus the armour means a deadly 'little' interceptor.
[ ] Something else - A 40 ton torpedo bomber, focusing on speed.
Fighter for defense, bomber for offence. Chose the 40 ton option because it's the smallest option that can mount two torpedoes. And torpedoes are going to need at least some mass use to get through PD fire.
- Steenbeck Security offers a slow frigate design armed with four laser turrets, a major particle weapon and thin armour. It would be capable of a single jump on internal fuel and relies either on tankers or local fuelling services for extended range.
Bearings Machinery takes advantage of their experience with powerful fusion reactors to provide a proposal for a fast 500 ton sloop armed solely with turrets but which is capable of multiple jumps while providing relative comfort for its crew.
This on the other hand is quite close to what I was envisioning, and sounds like it could be really good in a patrolling/policing role. It could perhaps also be used as a Scout in high risk situations, since it sounds like it should be able to outshoot any small craft able to catch it and outrun anything larger.
- PMCA, a S'Taxu based military engineering department, submit a concept for a guided ordnance frigate that would use either a pair of missile or a pair of torpedo barbettes in order to provide oppressive fire capabilities for its weight class while also mounting enough laser turrets to ward off any aggressive small craft.
This could also be good, maybe better than the Bearings ship for military use. If the speed is much lower than it's competitor, catching the enemy small craft could be difficult. In order to protect our Cruisers, the Frigate must be maneuverable enough to make it hard to simply bypass it.
- A fourth submission which comes from inside the Navy would use a mixed battery of particle beam turret mounts and lasers in order to provide a strange balance of anti-fighter and anti-shipping firepower.
This sounds interesting, in a kind of jack of all trades manner. The question is, how much do we want to specialize our ships? This could be good even on its own as a decent, cheap option for a spearhead or first line of defense.
Bearings definitely should move forward, but I am torn between PMCA and the Navy proposal for the second one.
Yeah, Bearings is a shoo in. For the second candidate, I think we might be doing PMCA for political reasons, so that we tighten our relations with S'taxu.
Fighter for defense, bomber for offence. Chose the 40 ton option because it's the smallest option that can mount two torpedoes. And torpedoes are going to need at least some mass use to get through PD fire.
Honestly I was thinking we were going to need to get some kind of new shuttle too. But the thing is the 90 ton assault shuttle actually serves our needs very well already. It can land a full platoon, is already atmo capable being based off of the standard shuttle, and is (probably) armoured already. If anything is needed, we could create another variant that strips out the boarding facilities in favor of either weaponry or more armor.
Edit:
The main thing about the marine landing craft mandate is we're going to need an actual full size ship capable of ferrying a larger formation either in orbit over hostile worlds and using shuttles to actually land, or landing itself. We're not addressing that hole in our fleet capability at the moment so I'm not too worried about getting another assault vessel.
I think we should work on a fighter as proof of concept and then snag a lander/assault craft. The current 90-ton variant is probably too big for what we want and going down to a platoon lander makes sense, at least to me.
Of course we also don't have a platform for the fighters at the moment. But I really want to finish up with the marine transport first so it doesn't just get backburnered...
Fan of the Bearings and PMCA proposals for the small craft.
I think we should work on a fighter as proof of concept and then snag a lander/assault craft. The current 90-ton variant is probably too big for what we want and going down to a platoon lander makes sense, at least to me.
Then again, if this design ends up carrying torpedoes it seems that it would hamper the anti-fighter capabilities too much. Perhaps we ought to support Home designers after all.
Honestly I was thinking we were going to need to get some kind of new shuttle too. But the thing is the 90 ton assault shuttle actually serves our needs very well already. It can land a full platoon, is already atmo capable being based off of the standard shuttle, and is (probably) armoured already. If anything is needed, we could create another variant that strips out the boarding facilities in favor of either weaponry or more armor.
Oh, I haven't noticed that those other FLF shuttles don't have boarding capabilities, we need to retain it.
[ ] Plan Aslan
-[ ] BMF's submission.
-[ ] Internal submission.
-[ ] A 10-ton, bare minimum fighter, akin to the Aslan design.
-[ ] A 30-ton armoured fighter at maximum speed.
If the Aslan use 10 ton fighters, we might as well check what the deal with them is. Plus, if we build some, we get to observe their capabilities and see how far behind we are in comparison to Aslan technogies and engineering prowess.
[ ] Plan Dagger and Shields
-[ ] BMF's submission.
-[ ] PMCA's submission.
-[ ] Something else - A 40 ton torpedo bomber, focusing on speed.
-[ ] A 30-ton armoured fighter at maximum speed.
I like them both, I'm leaning more towards bearings as a pure anti-fighter ship, but I also think having some kind of punch would be good. It would never be alone(I'd hope so) so we don't really need it to have anti ship capabilities. Just a pure specialist is what we need.
I've always wondered what kind of prisoners that would require sending to a whole different planet, hell a whole different system than the ones you inhabit. The only thing I can think of is that they are prisoners that have a lot of political pull or some kind of leader that certain people would love to break out.
Either way is this place ancient or active, it said barely inhabited so I'm assuming we see buildings or something. I'm suggesting we don't screw with it, if anything explore the surrounding systems and see if there is some kind of "Empire" that still holds this place.
Either way is this place ancient or active, it said barely inhabited so I'm assuming we see buildings or something. I'm suggesting we don't screw with it, if anything explore the surrounding systems and see if there is some kind of "Empire" that still holds this place.
That's the sort of place one approaches with dedicated landers and lots of marines. That said, I wonder if we could just send some scientist to take a look at the repeater itself. See how it managed to upload the data packet to our scouts?
It seems that Bearnings is the candidate of choice, I wonder whether we could settle on just this one. Or perhaps get the original Bearings design as one variant and Bearnings-HSWS or Bearings-PCMA collaboration craft as the second variant.
Frankly I find all the 500-ton offers underwhelming. If we are concerned about limitations on pilots, making craft that are super specialized like this seems like a waste, and I still think a slightly larger hull will give us better results than a 500 ton option.
[ ] Reject them all, go back to the drawing board with hull size increased up to 800 tons
We still have pilot shortage so we should go for larger crafts. Swarms of small ones could be better in general but if they're not flying because there's no pilots it's a moot point.
We can cut the size down to about 25-50 tons on a platoon lander if we make the effort, which would be good for future iterations of a landing vessel since it can carry transport for the Marines with less hangar tonnage.
I like them both, I'm leaning more towards bearings as a pure anti-fighter ship, but I also think having some kind of punch would be good. It would never be alone(I'd hope so) so we don't really need it to have anti ship capabilities. Just a pure specialist is what we need.
Frankly I find all the 500-ton offers underwhelming. If we are concerned about limitations on pilots, making craft that are super specialized like this seems like a waste, and I still think a slightly larger hull will give us better results than a 500 ton option.
It's a bit odd that you consider Bearing ultra-specialized, since I personally consider it good exactly because it is less specialized than the other options. It can fullfill at least three different roles: an escort frigate protecting our other ships from small craft, a policing/customs enforcement/anti-piracy vessel inside our own borders, and a Scout for high-risk missions in potentially hostile territory.
The one thing it cannot do is fight an enemy vessel of equal size or larger. However, it will not need to do so, since it should be able to outrun most ships of equal size since it is specifically noted to be fast. Any small craft that can actually catch the thing, it should easily beat. This is why it would be an excellent ship in any of the three roles mentioned above.
Also, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand why 500 tonnes is a problem from a pilot economy standpoint. Going above 500 tonnes requires another pilot, so is 500 tonnes not perfectly good, if we want to use our pilots efficiently?
We can cut the size down to about 25-50 tons on a platoon lander if we make the effort, which would be good for future iterations of a landing vessel since it can carry transport for the Marines with less hangar tonnage.
Can we make those shuttles retain boarding capabilities at 25-50 tons? If yes, then I'm in favour of making them smaller. If not, the current 90 tonnes should be retained.
Notice that in the update it was said that 'it would be more than possible to produce craft in the 10-30 ton scale that can operate at accelerations beyond those of larger ships'. 40 ton bomber is too heavy to achieve top speeds.
It's a bit odd that you consider Bearing ultra-specialized, since I personally consider it good exactly because it is less specialized than the other options. It can fullfill at least three different roles: an escort frigate protecting our other ships from small craft, a policing/customs enforcement/anti-piracy vessel inside our own borders, and a Scout for high-risk missions in potentially hostile territory.
The one thing it cannot do is fight an enemy vessel of equal size or larger. However, it will not need to do so, since it should be able to outrun most ships of equal size since it is specifically noted to be fast. Any small craft that can actually catch the thing, it should easily beat. This is why it would be an excellent ship in any of the three roles mentioned above.
Also, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand why 500 tonnes is a problem from a pilot economy standpoint. Going above 500 tonnes requires another pilot, so is 500 tonnes not perfectly good, if we want to use our pilots efficiently?
I consider it specialized because it can only perform those duties. It is not capable of supporting the rest of the fleet in an engagement other than as a PD ship, and can't meaningfully contribute any firepower to the battlespace.
Which means if we want another vessel that can, then we have a pilot for this vessel and then for a variant that might be capable of doing something else. Making a vessel only capable of a single limited task means more hulls overall as we find new mission parameters which means more pilots.
These are fleet escorts and patrol craft. They should have the weaponry they need to fulfill that role and a pure laser suite just doesn't cut it in my view, especially because missiles are a multipurpose weapon system that can attrit enemy capital ships as well as hit small craft.
It's a bit odd that you consider Bearing ultra-specialized, since I personally consider it good exactly because it is less specialized than the other options. It can fullfill at least three different roles: an escort frigate protecting our other ships from small craft, a policing/customs enforcement/anti-piracy vessel inside our own borders, and a Scout for high-risk missions in potentially hostile territory.
I was more talking about its targets. It wouldn't be of much help against enemy ships(I already said what I said about that, it doesn't need to.), it wouldn't help much in taking out defenses in orbit(Like defense platforms or even just shipyards), and it wouldn't give good ground support or strike utility. It's specialized in fighting fighters and that's pretty much it.
I still believe trying to design a fighter or bomber now is putting the cart before the horse. We have no doctrine, no platforms (not even orbital defense hangars), and no clear idea of what comes next with this line of development.
We still have unfinished business; the lander and marine transport most clearly. We're getting distracted by the new shiny idea we got from the Aslan.
I'm concerned we're doing an awful lot of warship construction without actually having fought any real space battles.
Is there any way to try to do field tests of some of these options. If not an actual war, then some kind of war games that hopefully point towards vulnerabilities we can't see?
I still believe trying to design a fighter or bomber now is putting the cart before the horse. We have no doctrine, no platforms (not even orbital defense hangars), and no clear idea of what comes next with this line of development.
We still have unfinished business; the lander and marine transport most clearly. We're getting distracted by the new shiny idea we got from the Aslan.
