Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

On Hominid Infrastructure and Urban Governance
On Hominid Infrastructure and Urban Governance

Close to eight years after Navy Day, Home's population still steadily climbs up the middle tens-of-millions. Despite long centuries of adaptation to Home's thin atmosphere, the vast majority still live within a pressurized arcology dome. The only true megacity is the planetary capital–also named Home–which houses all organs of government and the headquarters of every major corporation, in addition to its population of nine million. A few regional capitals also crack the million mark, but most settlements are significantly smaller.

Hominid infrastructure has eschewed intercity road networks for the bulk transit capability and cold-weather hardening of railroads. People may travel between cities on elevated-track maglev trains, and where cargo can't be shipped by containerized nuclear icebreaker, it's run on slower conventional lines. Because of the concentration of buildings into arcology structures, the outside of cities resemble industrial rail yards more than suburbs.

The size of the planet and the recency of its settlement mean most of Home is wilderness. Long hours may pass on a train journey, looking out over permafrost steppe or coniferous forests without end. Rumor has it that people who reject the oligarchic dominance of Home's institutions live out there, as small communes or hunter-gatherer bands enabled by smuggling industrial goods from the domes.

One notices a city on the horizon by the sudden presence of resource extraction operations; clear-cutting, open-pit mines, industrial farms. These take place an acceptable distance from population centers, but not so far as to inhibit supply. The corporate cliques have cartelized to avoid unnecessary competition in key sectors, so every uranium mine will have the same branding, every algae processing compound, and so on.

The largest dome in any given city is inevitably given over to housing and service needs, but is surrounded by ancillary domes under corporate governance. One compound might be operated by a chemical refining subsidiary, another filled by everything needed to manufacture electronics. The largest (but least militarized) corporate entity on Home is the concern dedicated to electricity and water infrastructure, whose vested interest is necessary for any settlement–and though they are a symptom of a planet governed in the interests of corrupt oligarchs, their energy is at least green.

The government operates on a lean budget, and so does not provide public services as such. People typically acquire housing, utilities, education and so on through a corporation. The specifics vary. Most often they're offered as benefits of employment, some people subscribe to tiered subscription plans bought with hard currency… unemployment is guardedly kept low for the purpose of avoiding public unrest, but those unlucky few live abysmally.

The main exceptions to this rule are soldiers, those in possession of hereditary bureaucratic office, and the extremely wealthy for whom the system is written. The former two classes of people enjoy a more conventional relationship with the state, and the privileged position of the latter does not merit explaining.
 
Hmm, there is a huge sun radiating in most systems of interest. Could you maybe lose a heat (radiation) seeking missile by turning towards the Sun and cutting the engine power? We really should run some War Games and exercises, is that something we can do?

Assuming that in the modern day, IR missiles can temperature-tuned or image-seeking (as seen here), I don't think that will necessarily be a problem, but it's well worth testing.

The Bodkin has the same problem of being too large to compete with 500 tonnes and too small to compete with the 1K tonnes we've talked about earlier.

A Mig-17 is 4 tons. An F-15E is 15 tons. A Tu-22 Backfire is 60.

An Eagle can compete with both those airframes, because the size is secondary to the capabilities of the platform as a whole package. To use a naval example of the type that a large contingent of this thread seems more comfortable with when discussing space flight, consider the Taffy 3 Engagement off Samar in 1944. The largest U.S. vessel in that engagement was the 8,000 ton St. Lo. The largest IJN vessel was the fucking Yamato. If you're keeping track, that's a 71,000 ton battleship. It cost almost every US ship in the engagement envelope, but radar-guided 5 inchers can kill just about anything when they're putting fire in the right place. The Bodkin is the same idea-long range escort, midrange capacity, with an ability to strike well outside its assumed ability thanks to "soft factors" like guidance radar and maneuver thrust.

Weight isn't an end-all-be all.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Lander

It would be hilarious if we keep designing a million variants of the MMV and never actually get around to building a single one of them : V
 
Have we been conducting any espionage? Xyli's advanced technologies would be helpful for us, and they are not willing to give us tech with direct military applications. Perhaps we start putting agents on trade ships to get an idea of their counter intelligence?
 
Assuming that in the modern day, IR missiles can temperature-tuned or image-seeking (as seen here), I don't think that will necessarily be a problem, but it's well worth testing.
Hmm, do keep in mind that in space, a craft need not keep its engines running if not accelerating. This combined with how slow purely radiative heat transfer is (overheating is a big problem in satellites) and the fact that the radiation output of the Sun is huge, might make fooling IR tracking more viable than expected.
 
Hmm, do keep in mind that in space, a craft need not keep its engines running if not accelerating. This combined with how slow purely radiative heat transfer is (overheating is a big problem in satellites) and the fact that the radiation output of the Sun is huge, might make fooling IR tracking more viable than expected.

I mean, I was just gonna use semi-active homing on our seekers, maybe throw some HARMs in there for fun. I tailored my answer to IR seekers because that's what the question was.
 
We can use laser-guided missiles if needed and just paint the target with LIDAR or RADAR honestly. And if they want to be shooting back at us I assume they have to do the same so semi-active tracking / HARMS would also work fine.
 
Hmm, do keep in mind that in space, a craft need not keep its engines running if not accelerating. This combined with how slow purely radiative heat transfer is (overheating is a big problem in satellites) and the fact that the radiation output of the Sun is huge, might make fooling IR tracking more viable than expected.
Doesn't matter, especially in a combat context. Unless a craft is willing to turn off near everything that is required to keep the crew alive, ships will produce heat, and slowly radiating the heat actually makes them more noticeable against a backdrop of void. And filtering out celestial bodies is something that Vietnam era, let alone modern day or future, IR missiles were capable of doing. (Yes I'm aware that a few of the early Vietnam era missiles would still target the sun, they still solved that so they would be a combat viable weapon).

@4WheelSword, did we ever get an updated pilot count with the addition of S'Taxu's defense forces into our own fleet?

[X] Plan Bulking out the Fleet, 500 tonne version

Edit:
I do think that the obsession with sticking with 500 or 1000 tons breakpoints is way too limiting of a design philosophy. Not everything should be designed or accounted for with maximum efficiency in mind, and we will suffer a loss to our combat capability of future craft if we never want to split the difference (off the top of my head, our 700 ton IS is the only ship in the fleet that can do M-6 without losing any of its designed capability).
 
Last edited:
I do think that the obsession with sticking with 500 or 1000 tons breakpoints is way too limiting of a design philosophy. Not everything should be designed or accounted for with maximum efficiency in mind, and we will suffer a loss to our combat capability of future craft if we never want to split the difference (off the top of my head, our 700 ton IS is the only ship in the fleet that can do M-6 without losing any of its designed capability).

100% agreed, I would love to see some 700 or 800 ton variant designs. There's stuff you can do if you squeeze in the extra tons while still saving on production costs.
 
We still have no clue on effectiveness.
"bvr, f15, terminal guidance" is all well and good but there's no more backing behind it than there was to begin with.

Do missiles and torpedoes actually have the range for that in open space? Signs point to no, but who knows. Can torpedoes get through PD nets often enough to be more effective than regular missiles? Who knows. Can swarms of small frigates effectively deal with heavy ships? There is a faction of officers ready to cheer and throw their hats in the air if we try, but no data. Can strike craft push out engagement ranges and be effective in a fleet engagement? No clue. It is not actually 1944 and we can't send torpedoes under the waterline or drop bombs onto deck armour.

Meson guns could do an equivalent effect but are extremely unlikely to show up and wouldn't fit on fighters in any case.

Regarding parasite corvettes, here's a thought: what if we had them carry their own share of fuel but no jumpdrive, and lock onto drop tank hardpoints instead of being carried internally? Parent ships might need an overstrength jumpdrive though.
 
Do missiles and torpedoes actually have the range for that in open space? Signs point to no, but who knows. Can torpedoes get through PD nets often enough to be more effective than regular missiles? Who knows. Can swarms of small frigates effectively deal with heavy ships? There is a faction of officers ready to cheer and throw their hats in the air if we try, but no data. Can strike craft push out engagement ranges and be effective in a fleet engagement? No clue.

Not to sound like I'm deploying a Gotcha Decoy, but all those questions are I exactly why @Pinniped has proposed war gaming these designs out, and specifically why OPLAN Tsavo argues for a test build of the Bodkin before full development. We need to find out. A stagnant force is a dead force-we can try anything once, but remaining in place or even regressing without good evidence is not a good idea. At this point, we're screaming for someone who's experienced in bypassing p-beams to fuck us up.
 
Iirc I suggested something like that about half a dozen updates ago but got no traction.

But building a whole extra class of ships with no idea if the concept works, when it's basically a sawn-off MMV to begin with...
Particularly since IMO the whole concept of sending an escort with Interstellar Surveyors is fundamentally flawed.

That is, an MMV should be able to simulate this reasonably accurately in exercises, but if torpedoes are unfavourable against PD this itself would be in serious trouble.

Particle beams aren't very flexible but they're big whopping space guns with long range. Presumably enough sand might defang them but the combination of range and firepower makes counters tricky. There's only so many clever tricks to apply when someone throws a big brick at you. Probably. Adding in one of those big missile racks here and there means people can't double down on sandcasters.
 
Last edited:
On Hominid Infrastructure and Urban Governance
Nice read! I wonder whether the government and the corporations are interested in making the planet more Earth-like, perhaps via pumping gasses to increase the temperature, perhaps via lining domes with gravity plates to lower the apparent gravity.
Have we been conducting any espionage? Xyli's advanced technologies would be helpful for us, and they are not willing to give us tech with direct military applications. Perhaps we start putting agents on trade ships to get an idea of their counter intelligence?
Question is, does HSWS have their separate intelligence arm, or is intelligence the responsibility of Citizens' Council?
 
Unless a craft is willing to turn off near everything that is required to keep the crew alive, ships will produce heat, and slowly radiating the heat actually makes them more noticeable against a backdrop of void. And filtering out celestial bodies is something that Vietnam era, let alone modern day or future, IR missiles were capable of doing
Hmm, my thought was that "a backdrop of void" is very different from a backdrop of the Sun. The sun puts out ridiculous amounts of energy, so seeing a ship with dead engines against it might be difficult. I know current tech can filter out celestial bodies, but doing that in space is different from doing that on Earth.
Not to sound like I'm deploying a Gotcha Decoy, but all those questions are I exactly why @Pinniped has proposed war gaming these designs out, and specifically why OPLAN Tsavo argues for a test build of the Bodkin before full development
Iirc I suggested something like that about half a dozen updates ago but got no traction.
It's hard to do exercises when we don't have a variery of different ships to test. I'll definitely agree to do some testing and war games once we have the Frigate design built, as well as some fighter prototypes of our own.
 
Back
Top