We do NOT need a landing ship at this time. Maybe a marine boarding ship, but unless Xyri and S'Taxu suddenly get a lot more hostile, we won't need rapid planetary warfare capability anytime soon.
This should be the long term goal, but a negotiated ceasefire should be short-term. We're in a cold war situation, with weapons armed and pointed at each other. Let's take small steps to point the weapons down, then unload them, then store them, then shake hands.
Nothing too unexpected. We now have confirmation that more of our guys are alive. As suspected, the Dynasts were keeping their mainworld hostage.
As for peace, we tried negotiating that already and were rebuffed by the Dynasts while those guys were in a weaker position than nowadays. Perhaps if we had the Junta surrender to us directly and become an outright Protectorate we could wiggle out of our current commitments.
I wholeheartedly back a negotiated peace; there's no reason no to push for it. The Dynasty need our help still - if we twist their arms, they'll come to the table. It's better for the long term than getting into a shooting war with the junta.
The Dynasts have proven to be... underwhelming allies. If they prove to be the only obstacle to a peace deal that's otherwise objectively good for us, maybe the Council will finally see sense and let us cut them loose.
Get ready for a little bit of Democratic Fantasy from my IC-she sees this as the ultimate vindication of her push for alliance with the PMC and other dem. forces in the S'taxu system.
[X] OPLAN: Hands Across The Water
-[X] The 3,000+ ton Multi-Mission Vessel.
-[X] We should push for peace talks in S'Taxu.
Today's debriefing of our survivors from the Heimdall has double cause for celebration among all the People and their Daughters: not only have veteran spacers been returned to us, with others of their crew still alive in captivity and waiting for rescue, but this safe return opens a path for which the Multispectrum Warfare Office advocated at length during the outbreak of our involvement in S'taxu. Namely, this prisoner exchange gives us a chance to propose an organized, enforceable peace between our controversial "partners" in the Chambrestrong Dynasty and the democratic states of S'taxu, which will convert a fractious, bitter war zone into a peaceful, stable, and above all free port of trade, technology, and military alliance. As "outsiders" to the S'taxi people, we can be trusted by all sides to serve as impartial observers as peace talks continue, with our Fleet assets serving to prevent any underhanded action by either side of the debates. Additionally, our prior trust in the Dynast camp and the clear friendly overtures represented by both the return of our Heimdall POWs and the testified remorse and regret of PMC military officials when the gravity of their error was relayed by our survivors mean that we have leverage to get both sides to sit down and speak with one another instead of continuing this bloody conflict.
In regard to the proposed changes in design and doctrine to the Lancer-class destroyers originally proposed by this office, I and my staff must admit to a degree of protectiveness; the Lancer was always intended to fulfill the dream of multirole service begun with the Q&P and Crossbow programs, and to see it reduced to a mere assault ship rather than the space superiority, escort, and strike platform it began life as would be untenable. While we still hold that the Lancer's deployment in the S'taxu conflict would have been a prime testbed for its capabilities, we recognize that the opportunity for peace trumps what could be gained by live-fire testing against fellow sapients. As such, we hold that continuing with the original 3000~ ton multi-mission design, for use in Scout and Surveyor formations, is the best option for the class.
Notice the absence of movies or electronic games, nothing that would give the captors glimpse at the wider society. Either strict information control was maintained or the Junta has nothing to be proud of in that regard.
Sulak: "We spent most of our time in their biggest base on the 8th planet though we were transferred around a couple of times when they thought Home was going to commit to an attack."
Yeah. That makes rescue operations difficult, since there'll be no way to tell whether we're hitting the right target. Junta has two planets, multiple installations and numerous small ships where our guys can be hidden.
I wholeheartedly back a negotiated peace; there's no reason no to push for it. The Dynasty need our help still - if we twist their arms, they'll come to the table.
We tried twisting Dynast arms earlier when we were making big demands in exchange for our assistance, it didn't work.
Overall, negotiated peace wouldn't be bad, but we need to remember that we are not altruistic peacemakers in this situation. Our goal is to secure this system so that it doesn't have the potential to threaten Home. This is going to require either extending political protection over the entire area or reducing their potential.
I've also had a think about the potential multi-role ships. The 2K size limit would be welcome, because that's the biggest ship our available shipyards in S'taxu can produce and we could provide ourselves with a steady stream of multi-roles. To reduce size we'd design them with fuel for 2 jumps. Same as Insterstellar Cruiser, it'd be possible for them to operate further via FSS. Does that sound good?
God, that stings. From what I can tell we appeared right next to one of their asteroid ships, so I'm not surprised guns went hot—but wow. Bad luck. Lovely writing on the interview segment entirely, by the way.
Lots of very insightful commentary, Magnificate. I pick this section out because I'm also very curious what's up here. I imagine it's propaganda (maybe photos of crimes committed by the Dynasts, maybe a total fabrication) but it's a very serious claim.'
Lots of very insightful commentary, Magnificate. I pick this section out because I'm also very curious what's up here. I imagine it's propaganda (maybe photos of crimes committed by the Dynasts, maybe a total fabrication) but it's a very serious claim.'
I don't think it necessarily has to be fabricated. Even guided munitions miss. Whatever our intent might have been (minimize civilian casualties, etc.) when we're throwing around orbit-to-ground ortillery that's a lot of destructive firepower. It's entirely possible we did hit something and caused a lot of death and destruction to civilians. I'm not willing to write it off as mere fabrication - and was part of the reason why I think we shouldn't have taken that mission to begin with.
It's also why I continue to oppose dreams of empire as pushed by Magnificate; the idea that we must subsume and attack others or we will be attacked in turn is deeply paranoid and reactive and leads to this sort of thing - our military must and should be a defensive one, intended to protect our explorers and our home system. Not something to be used to conquer or force others to bow to our whims because we happen to have the biggest stick.
[X] We should push for peace talks in S'Taxu.
[X] The 3,000+ ton Multi-Mission Vessel.
I don't think it necessarily has to be fabricated. Even guided munitions miss. Whatever our intent might have been (minimize civilian casualties, etc.) when we're throwing around orbit-to-ground ortillery that's a lot of destructive firepower. It's entirely possible we did hit something and caused a lot of death and destruction to civilians. I'm not willing to write it off as mere fabrication - and was part of the reason why I think we shouldn't have taken that mission to begin with.
Something to consider: didn't we at least in part get the targeting data for that bombardment from the Dynasts? We did not have anyone on the ground who could confirm what we actually shot at? How do we know the Dynasts did not include some civilian targets among the military ones? We already suspect that they were willing to hold everyone hostage with their nukes, so they do not seem to mind civilian casualties.
"They've demonstrated they have the capacity to build jump drives. They think it will force us to take them more seriously, and they don't want an arms race while their system is divided. So, talks."
This kind of implies they would be fine with an arms race if the system was unified. Which would actually be a point against peace talks now.
I am suspicious of the Dynasts, don't like them and generally feel like an alliance woth them is not worth it. Peace would be good from a moral standpoint, but we must make sure they don't use said peace to start gathering forces to challenge us.
Something to consider: didn't we at least in part get the targeting data for that bombardment from the Dynasts? We did not have anyone on the ground who could confirm what we actually shot at? How do we know the Dynasts did not include some civilian targets among the military ones? We already suspect that they were willing to hold everyone hostage with their nukes, so they do not seem to mind civilian casualties.
Hmm. If there really is reason to suspect the footage was genuine, we should investigate it further. Ask the Junta to share the footage, and maybe ask the Dynasts to allow Home to send "ambassadors" and "neutral observers" to their world, to get to the bottom of this.
If we ignore this and the footage is genuine, it could cause a harsh blow to our morale and political instability at Home. If it also turns out the Dynasts purposefully lied and had us bombard civilians, we know they cannot be trusted and have very good reason to ditch our alliance with them.
Even so, if we did shatter domes we'd see that from orbit. We've received no reports to that effect from our crews. If we shattered domes without knowing that we did... then we're just incompetent.
It's also why I continue to oppose dreams of empire as pushed by Magnificate; the idea that we must subsume and attack others or we will be attacked in turn is deeply paranoid and reactive and leads to this sort of thing
Yes, of course it is. We're the military arm of an oligarchy. We're not the good guys. That said, below is my analysis of the current political situation:
There are six sides that would need to be satisfied to achieve peace. Four of those won't be problematic:
The Democratic Republic of Cassalon – Irrelevant to our interests.
The Xyphon Federation – Already rolled up by the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
The Peoples Military Council – Already want peace. Are afraid of being overwhelmed by us and the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
Us – Already want peace. It's justifiable in that we don't want to incur further losses and we want our servicemen back.
However, the remaining two are problematic:
Chambrestrong Dynasty – Obstinate fellows. Never surrendered despite being in the losing position, were willing to hold their own world hostage to stalemate the conflict. Rejected our earlier peace-making overtures. Resisted us imposing demands on them. We've made commitments to them are currently supplying them and paying for their ships.
Our Council – Rejected our earlier advice to ally with the Junta. Wanted to ally with the weaker side, presumably because of ideological similarities and the fact the Junta had more potential. Has asserted their dominance over us in that we listened to their orders. Plus, notice these guys were quite keen to show their support for the Monitor as a statement of intent.
If we do want to achieve peace, I don't think it'll be sufficient to vote for the peace option. We tried that once and it didn't work. We ought to work out some more detailed proposals that take into account all the factions.
Yes, of course it is. We're the military arm of an oligarchy. We're not the good guys. That said, below is my analysis of the current political situation:
There are six sides that would need to be satisfied to achieve peace. Four of those won't be problematic:
The Democratic Republic of Cassalon – Irrelevant to our interests.
The Xyphon Federation – Already rolled up by the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
The Peoples Military Council – Already want peace. Are afraid of being overwhelmed by us and the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
Us – Already want peace. It's justifiable in that we don't want to incur further losses and we want our servicemen back.
However, the remaining two are problematic:
Chambrestrong Dynasty – Obstinate fellows. Never surrendered despite being in the losing position, were willing to hold their own world hostage to stalemate the conflict. Rejected our earlier peace-making overtures. Resisted us imposing demands on them. We've made commitments to them are currently supplying them and paying for their ships.
Our Council – Rejected our earlier advice to ally with the Junta. Wanted to ally with the weaker side, presumably because of ideological similarities and the fact the Junta had more potential. Has asserted their dominance over us in that we listened to their orders. Plus, notice these guys were quite keen to show their support for the Monitor as a statement of intent.
If we do want to achieve peace, I don't think it'll be sufficient to vote for the peace option. We tried that once and it didn't work. We ought to work out some more detailed proposals that take into account all the factions.
I'm here to defend our homeworld and expand our knowledge of the local sector; I am not here to continue backing imperialist expanionist policies and mass murder. Whether that makes us the "good guys" or not is ultimately irrelevant. I do not agree with you or your various analyses and I think following your proposed plans of actions will generally lead us down the wrong road. Following it has so far led us to conduct a horrific orbit-to-ground bombardment and is putting us on track to helping the dynasts kill thousands of their own people, if not more and potentially dragging us into a shooting war that doesn't benefit us at all (and will probably get more of our people killed).
It was your plan, after all, that led us to conduct said bombardment.
And to quote:
The opening salvo cripples or buries five out of six identified silos, collapsing internal supports and causing land slides as they set the air aflame. The enemy is not without recourse...
The silos are dealt with in short order, cruisers random walking to make return fire difficult and then they turn to the mobile missile launchers.
Our weapons are igniting the atmosphere and causing tectonic shifts and landslides; we're throwing around kilotons+ of firepower here. While not explicitly stated, the odds of collateral damage here are high if the silos and mobile launchers were located near cities or other infrastructure.
To lower the temperature somewhat, I'll remind everyone that the roles of the NPC government we serve aren't...fixed. We can advise, and they can consent, but there are other factions besides the Council on Home we can appeal to if, let's say, circumstances between the Council and the People become strained. There are ways we can develop ourselves that don't require following an oligarch path. Nations change constantly across time.
We can advise, and they can consent, but there are other factions besides the Council on Home we can appeal to if, let's say, circumstances between the Council and the People become strained. There are ways we can develop ourselves that don't require following an oligarch path. Nations change constantly across time.
Like we are currently fighting the Dynasts' war for them. We should not be doing that.
Instead we showed up, got told by the government to back the dynasts and decided the best way to do that was to launch a ground-to-air-orbital bombardment and probably make our names mud with every anti-dynast in the system.
We could have continued to slow-roll support or at least not gone with the weapons hot option to see how things developed; instead we've basically let ourselves get pulled into a shooting war - or very close to one. If we can extricate ourselves, we should.
There are six sides that would need to be satisfied to achieve peace. Four of those won't be problematic:
The Democratic Republic of Cassalon – Irrelevant to our interests.
The Xyphon Federation – Already rolled up by the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
The Peoples Military Council – Already want peace. Are afraid of being overwhelmed by us and the Chambrestrong Dynasty.
Us – Already want peace. It's justifiable in that we don't want to incur further losses and we want our servicemen back.
Cassalon is the largest planetary nation and saw the Federation collapse-they may well be building or have built orbital denial systems of their own to prevent another bombardment of the same type during the "detente" phase of the war that followed the Dynast planetary offensive. I don't think we can lock them out of the negotiations.
The Xyphoni are beaten militarily, but as we know IRL, democracies tend to die pretty hard under occupation by monarchist or fascist forces. It is reasonable that we extend a place at the table to any resistance movements operating in Federation territory, as long as they aren't active terrorists, to show that we respect their former place as a full belligerent in this war.
The PMC clearly want peace, but I don't think we can assume they are afraid of us-they may instead be preparing a counteroffer to the Dynasts' current alliance, especially now that they are jump-capable and willing to travel to Home as part of the peace process. We will not know for sure until we organize proper ceasefire talks.
If we have to, I'm more than willing to feed the Dynasts some of their own medicine and either negotiate or support a coup that will make their government into one willing to keep their shipyards producing allied ships for us while heavily conceding power to the Junta, if we're going purely mercenary with it. Hell, those new S'taxu class defense escorts would be a terrific olive branch to the PMC, the Dynasts, or a new United S'taxu Republic in terms of tech-sharing agreements.
Also, we are the military space arm of a civilian government. We control the orbital volume around our "unchanging" oligarch government.
And sometimes, democracy is birthed at the point of a missile.
@4WheelSword should I edit my OPLAN to include thoughts on what peace talks should look like, or is that better for next vote?
