[X]OPLAN: Peace Coast
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
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Coyote Niff
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The size increase is me trying to work in the boundaries given. Also, again, it's not an "aggressive" design-it's an expeditionary design. It's explicitly intended to tackle multiple roles, including convoy protection, scout support, orbital landing, etc-so it's got to be armed for all those scenarios.
@4WheelSword Permission to shift OPLAN to a write-in where the Lancer tonnage is only upped to whatever's necessary for a 4-jump design while keeping all else optimal? I know that'll put it in a weird spot but in light of critiques laid in on the 4000 ton increase I think it's a fair idea. Just don't want to interfere with voting process.
4WheelSword
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For sure!
You might not have indented it as an aggressive design, but it is. It's the biggest, most long-ranged, most comprehensively armed ship we would produce to date. It's not an escort. It's not a rescue ship. It's a multi-role ship that would define our fleet. I can imagine working with it if it's a 1K marine assault ship. I can imagine having a long-ranged 4K warship. But to mash them together just dilutes their role. Anyways, I'd be glad to hear what changes would be needed for you to throw your support behind the Monitor?
In the meantime, my commentaries on various faction opinions:
Yes, we don't need the Monitor right now. We can afford to wait until the station segments and the Deep Space Surveyors are built. If the situation changes and we do need ships ASAP there's nothing preventing us from stopping construction and cranking out Interstellar Cruisers instead.
No, it hasn't. We've observed no boarding actions in S'Taxu. Where it comes to marines on ships I'm of the opinion that numbers matter. Dedicated assault transports are OK. Small contingent of marines serving as guards on bigger warships is OK. But dividing the capabilities of a warship between weapons and marines is not OK, it leads to master-of-none designs.
Heh. I can appreciate the marketing angle, but what matters is concentrating on one type of main armament. There are countermeasures for particles beams, there are countermeasures for missiles. Most ships we've seen carry both. Concentrating on one type of offense invalidates half of enemy defenses.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Sounds like we don't need a monitor then.
[X]OPLAN: Peace Coast
You would want to build extra SDDs instead? We could, but that ship is TL-7, I'd rather not build something that's obsolete.
To give an example:
Possible changes to Lancer:
-[ ] Marine Assault Ship, 1K tonnes, 2 jumps, marines & minimal weapons.
-[ ] Long-Range Rescue Ship, 2K tonnes, 4 jumps, includes marines, medical facilities & minimal weapons.
-[ ] Long-Range Warship, 4K tonnes, 4 jumps, based on particle beams, possibly with shockwave torpedoes to clear sand.
Possible changes to Monitor:
-[ ] In-System Monitor, 6.5K tonnes, no jump engine, designed with future jump-tug in mind.
-[ ] Current design, but downscaled to 6K tonnes.
-[ ] ???
Coyote Niff
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Dedicated assault transports are something we'll need when the City Militia becomes invested in longterm power projection-that is to say, when we are holding, attacking, or defending more worlds than our own. The Fleet Landing Forces, being dedicated to ship-to-ship boarding, fleet security, et al, are less analogous to marines, who in the modern day mostly do amphibious assaults, and more to dedicated air assault and airbase security troops-a cross between the RAF Regiment, the Ukrainian VDV, and other special duty troops worldwide. As such, I feel that integrating their duties into a modular design is fitting.
Edit: additional point here! The only reason we haven't seen S'taxi boarding actions/orbital debris combat is because of the two major space borne factions, one is out putative ally and the other is a major military power that our government keeps refusing to either bargain with or engage in combat on behalf of our "friends" in the Chambrestrong Court. We will need the Lancer to deal with Castle and Rock.
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I assume that to make successful boarding actions we'd need to be able to overwhelm the defenders. That means we'd need to assign significant portion of ship tonnage to marine barracks and shuttles or drop-pods or whatever our guys are using. This leaves less room for weapons and armour and that in turn makes the ship not competitive in combat. We don't have the means to build a ship that's good at everything. We can choose to have a ship that's good at fighting, with minimal marines, or we can choose a ship that's good at boarding actions, with minimal weapons. It can't be both. It most certainly can't be both, and long-ranged, and durable.
I repeat the earlier question, what changes would need to be done to the Monitor for it to get your approval? I've stated what I think would make the Lancer work, but what is your opinion on the Monitor?
EDIT:
You want the Lancer to be capable of 4 jumps. S'Taxu is right next to us. Lancer is wasteful for that engagement. In this case it's better to build more Interstellar Cruisers. Heck, it's even better to build the Monitor and use something that out-weights and out-guns these things.
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Honestly, it is something to go from 4WS's last ship builder where 8000 tonnes wasn't huge even at the start of the 20th century, to here where we quibble over it, centuries in advance in tech. A bit amusing.
Coyote Niff
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Frankly, the Monitor, to me, needs to be a spinal design; a big, heavy mass driver or missile housing around which the whole ship is built-we have very little in the way of kinetic strike capability and historical monitors prized that above all. Secondly, I agree it should be a one-jump vessel, but I think also that if it has any particle weapons, they should be PDN systems rather than offensive-the whole point of a monitor is to sit on a spot we want to defend and...defend. Also, emphasis should be placed on "first strike." To use the JUMPFLASH scenario above as an example, a System Monitor should jump into a system, orbit its star to refuel, and all the while be using top-of-the line search and target radar to prevent any kind of bogey or bandit from going undiscovered. Optimally, we want it to be able to C&C for smaller craft as well.
Thank you for the answer. There might be room for some compromise.
Perhaps something akin to the plan presented below would be acceptable? (Notice that I'm not asking what happened to Heimdall, because we could see it being destroyed. Instead, I'm asking what intelligence was leaked.)
[ ] Plan Alpha-Strike Monitor
-[ ] Monitor. Retain the 1 parsec range. Downscale to 6K tonnes. If possible, mount it with spinal particle beam. If not, mount it with the heaviest particle beams available. It might compromise on armoring, but not on active defenses. It ought to have marine guards on board.
-[ ] Question 1: Were you treated well?
-[ ] Question 2: What information have you shared with your captors?
-[ ] Question 3: What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
-[ ] Write-In: Keep the returned POWs in full medical quarantine.
-[ ] Write-In: Send either HSWS Janus or HSWS Culsans to S'Taxu. Their job is to check on our stationed Interstellar Cruisers and get the newest report on the Junta activities.
I've got no objections to that. @4WheelSword Can we do that within our TL?
If it has a spinal main weapon, then it makes sense for its other weapons to be defensive. If we can't do spinal weapons, then I'd need to be more of a brawler, but I certainly agree on it heaving a healthy dose of defensive weapons.
No objections.
Perhaps something akin to the plan presented below would be acceptable? (Notice that I'm not asking what happened to Heimdall, because we could see it being destroyed. Instead, I'm asking what intelligence was leaked.)
[ ] Plan Alpha-Strike Monitor
-[ ] Monitor. Retain the 1 parsec range. Downscale to 6K tonnes. If possible, mount it with spinal particle beam. If not, mount it with the heaviest particle beams available. It might compromise on armoring, but not on active defenses. It ought to have marine guards on board.
-[ ] Question 1: Were you treated well?
-[ ] Question 2: What information have you shared with your captors?
-[ ] Question 3: What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
-[ ] Write-In: Keep the returned POWs in full medical quarantine.
-[ ] Write-In: Send either HSWS Janus or HSWS Culsans to S'Taxu. Their job is to check on our stationed Interstellar Cruisers and get the newest report on the Junta activities.
Coyote Niff
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I should quantify; I think the Monitor is, for reasons expressed also by @Rat King , not the design we need right now-we have plenty of internal system defenses. However, if and when we build it, the issues I outlined in my reply would be the ones that matter most-as I said, the end goal of any proposal, to me, is to expand our expeditionary and kinetic strike capability.
EDIT: to make my point clear, the exploration via DSS missions and the necessity of having a vessel to engage threats to those missions means OPLAN Peace Coast is still my primary plan.
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Likewise, I think that there is no need for Lancer, because we've just built lots of Interstellar Cruisers and range extension in the form of our Flotilla Support Ship. There's just no need for 4K multi-roles, when smaller specialist craft working in tandem with our existing fleet would do the job. Smaller specialist craft could be build alongside the larger Monitors too.
It seems it's going to be an impasse again. I'll wait and see what other players might want to add.
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[] What was the ship that returned you?
[] What happened to the Heimdall?
[] Other - Why were you returned?
Here's my pitch for questions. I think the third is one of the most important we could ask here. Were they returned as a threat? An assurance of some sort? Proof that someone else can build a jump ship alone? They might not know anything about the situation in S'Taxu, but if they know why they were returned, we might be able to fit it into the puzzle.
[] What happened to the Heimdall?
[] Other - Why were you returned?
Here's my pitch for questions. I think the third is one of the most important we could ask here. Were they returned as a threat? An assurance of some sort? Proof that someone else can build a jump ship alone? They might not know anything about the situation in S'Taxu, but if they know why they were returned, we might be able to fit it into the puzzle.
4WheelSword
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A theoretical spinal particle cannon would mass oh, 5,000 tons.
A prototype mass accelerator with the same role would be, uh, about 9,000 tons.
This one I'll give you for free. Don't worry about spending a question on it.
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Oh, great!
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So yeah spinal mounts is out.
On the topic of defenses we have 3 space stations spread out across the whole ssystem and a hahandful of SDD's, those would all crumple if the Dreadrocks become jump capable. I want the monitors rather than hoping in the last year the Junta hasn't begun reverse engineering anything.
On the topic of jump tugs the Monitors alone will take up a large portion of our dockspace, we won't be able to build a second one if we fill the space with jump tugs given a jump tug would need the tonnage to hold enough fuel for 10% of its own and the Monitor's tonnage. I want to build jump tugs but I'd rather have the Monitors first.
Edit: I think we do need kenetic capacity as well.
On the topic of defenses we have 3 space stations spread out across the whole ssystem and a hahandful of SDD's, those would all crumple if the Dreadrocks become jump capable. I want the monitors rather than hoping in the last year the Junta hasn't begun reverse engineering anything.
On the topic of jump tugs the Monitors alone will take up a large portion of our dockspace, we won't be able to build a second one if we fill the space with jump tugs given a jump tug would need the tonnage to hold enough fuel for 10% of its own and the Monitor's tonnage. I want to build jump tugs but I'd rather have the Monitors first.
Edit: I think we do need kenetic capacity as well.
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The monitor as it looks design wise would be amazing as a defense ship in the FUTURE. We need to stabilize the tri-cluster area first before we can start thinking of putting J-drives on defensive ships. That said, we also do not need landing ships YET. Getting a couple small to learn the doctrinal issues that come with it would be smart, but it should not be something we're actively looking to build just yet.
Re: Junta Jumper. Without asking any questions, we learned 2 things already. 1)they figured out J-drives, and 2) they're able to at the bare minimum refit if not build sub 500 ton ships. They just went up in priority.
I don't think the dreadrocks will be jump capable any time soon. A jump-drive big enough to move those things is nearly the size of a ship on its own. That said they could be rushing it.
Re: Junta Jumper. Without asking any questions, we learned 2 things already. 1)they figured out J-drives, and 2) they're able to at the bare minimum refit if not build sub 500 ton ships. They just went up in priority.
I don't think the dreadrocks will be jump capable any time soon. A jump-drive big enough to move those things is nearly the size of a ship on its own. That said they could be rushing it.
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To be honest if I was them I'd threaten to jump an asteroid with boosters on it within Home's gravity well
There's uh, a lot wrong with trying to use an asteroid as a KKV against a planet. Especially if you're gonna jump it in first.
OK, in that case, what should we be building right now? More Interstellar Cruisers in anticipation of recovering losses from Junta skirmishes? I wouldn't be opposed to that, since we've go a bonus to constructing designs we're already familiar with. BTW, notice that a Monitor would arrive at Year 8, that's relatively far in the future.
Alas. I've removed them from the current draft:
[ ] Plan Alpha-Strike Monitor
-[ ] Monitor. Retain the 1 parsec range. Downscale to 6K tonnes. Mount the heaviest particle beams optimized for alpha strikes. Use state-of-the-art sensors and targeting systems as well as Shockwave Missiles to support the particle beams. Compromise on armouring, but not on active defences. Station marine guards on board.
-[ ] Question 1: Were you treated well?
-[ ] Question 2: What information have you shared with your captors?
-[ ] Question 3: What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
-[ ] Write-In: Keep the returned POWs in full medical quarantine.
-[ ] Write-In: Send either HSWS Janus or HSWS Culsans to S'Taxu. Their job is to check on our stationed Interstellar Cruisers and get the newest report on the Junta activities.
I like the idea of an expeditionary / assault warship, however I think this is perhaps trying to be too much of a jack-of-all trades / master-of-none. If we are going to pursue this ship I think it could do with being more specialised as a marine assault ship with a mostly defensive armament and perhaps some space-to-ground weapons to support contested planetary landings.
I think we also need to keep the above in mind. We are limited on how many Pilots we have. Larger ship designs that can replace several smaller ships are going to be more 'efficient' when it comes to Pilot usage.
As much as monopolising our yards for a long time is going to be painful, it will eventually allow us to have more tonnage per Pilot.
Here's my suggestion for a plan, drawing from several of the suggestions already put forward:
[X] Plan: Specialisation and Compromise
-[X] Monitor. Retain the 1 parsec range. Downscale to 6K tonnes. Mount the heaviest particle beams optimized for alpha strikes. Use state-of-the-art sensors and targeting systems as well as Shockwave Missiles to support the particle beams. Compromise on armouring, but not on active defences. Station marine guards on board.
-[X] Expeditionary: Reduce the size to 2,000 tons, allowing one to be built in S'Taxu as well as in Home. Specialise the design to have a minimal offensive armament, with a predominantly defensive armament and space-to-ground weapons to support planetary landings. A rapid-deployment hangar allows the deployment of FLFI forces for boarding, landing, or CSAR operations.
-[X] What was the ship that returned you?
-[X] What information have you shared with your captors?
-[X] What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
-[X] Write-In: Keep the returned POWs in full medical quarantine.
-[X] Write-In: Send either HSWS Janus or HSWS Culsans to S'Taxu. Their job is to check on our stationed Interstellar Cruisers and get the newest report on the Junta activities.
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I like this
Edit: A side note about the company trying to sell us on missiles being useless, so far all our losses and damage has been done by missiles and our point defense being unable to counter them. I wonder if we'll be able to unlock more powerful pd systems.
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I'm cool with it as well.
I'm still not sure whether we should be asking about the fate of the Heimdall. What new information are we expecting to learn? "We jumped in, trigged an automatic defense, failed to implement Nightgale Protocol. Both ourselves and debris from Heimdall was picked up by the Junta."
I wonder whether there's any way to learn the size of Junta Yards? Can we afford to let the civil war develop on its own pace, or are we suddenly on the clock and need to attack with 8 Intestellar Cruisers and 4 new Dynast Escorts?
4WheelSword
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There's 8k tons of yards in S'Taxu. 2k tons is available to the Monarchy.