If the ship does not have a jump drive, it can only defend the Home system. If that is the case, why build a ship at all, instead of static defense stations?
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Maneuverability. Means it can also defend the outer system / other infrastructure in-system that's not in its immediate gun range.
But arguments for both in that case.
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I think if we do build ships, we should build jump-capable ones. There's no threat that we know of with the ability to reach Home, so as it currently stands, we should use our pilots for ships that can reach other systems. They can deal with potential threats to Home there, before they can get to us.
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How long does a jump vessel last before major maintenance and updates? I think that older vessels could be turned into system monitors.
0t4n1z3r019
Member of the HAFPTG
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[X] OPLAN: Peace Is Our Profession.
WilyMachineKing1
Executive Manager of Limbus Company
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[X] OPLAN: Peace Is Our Profession.
For some reason this feels like this meme:
For some reason this feels like this meme:
I'll once again make an appeal against the Lancer-class. It's designed to have fuel for 3 jumps, that's not enough to keep up with the Deep Space Surveyors that can make four jumps. It's more than the current Interstellar Cruiser, but it doesn't increase mobility since it either relies on refuelling. Alternatively, it jumps 2 hexes forward, but just 1 hex back. The objection levied against the Monitor for wasting fuel is even more valid against the Lancer, since length 3 jumps are going to happen significantly less often than length 1 jumps.
Also, Lancer appeals to rescuing Heimdall survivors. But we can't even locate them or confirm their status despite mentioning that several times in our votes. At this point, there's no one to rescue. Even if there was someone to rescue, why build a dedicated 3000 tonnes expeditionary cruiser instead of 1000 marine assault craft escorted by two Interstellar Cruisers? I feel that Lancer tries to be a bit of everything at once, rather than allowing for proper specialization.
Also, no, peace is not our profession. We're the Navy. War is our profession and the deterrence we provide brings us peace.
Also, Lancer appeals to rescuing Heimdall survivors. But we can't even locate them or confirm their status despite mentioning that several times in our votes. At this point, there's no one to rescue. Even if there was someone to rescue, why build a dedicated 3000 tonnes expeditionary cruiser instead of 1000 marine assault craft escorted by two Interstellar Cruisers? I feel that Lancer tries to be a bit of everything at once, rather than allowing for proper specialization.
Also, no, peace is not our profession. We're the Navy. War is our profession and the deterrence we provide brings us peace.
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- Location
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[X] Four
[X] Two - Taking over three years to complete
[X] A class of modular defence stations that can also be shipped (in parts) to allied systems.
[X] Two - Taking over three years to complete
[X] A class of modular defence stations that can also be shipped (in parts) to allied systems.
A monitor with a jump drive defeats the entire purpose of designing a 'monitor'.
By not having to make room in the design for a jump drive and it's fuel tanks all of that tonnage can instead be devoted to additional weapons and armour, thus punching well above the weight class of an equivalent 6500 warship with a jump drive.
By not having to make room in the design for a jump drive and it's fuel tanks all of that tonnage can instead be devoted to additional weapons and armour, thus punching well above the weight class of an equivalent 6500 warship with a jump drive.
It's perfectly feasible to build jump-less Monitors and dedicated tenders that move them where needed. But, that's a separate craft to design and build, while our tanker is almost out of the yards. I see no reason to complicate things.
That said, fully in-system Monitor is IMO preferable to an expeditionary cruiser.
Coyote Niff
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[X] OPLAN: Peace Is Our Profession.
For some reason this feels like this meme:
That's because my IC does in fact love democracy. She's a horrible little Federation/PMC sympathizer in the middle of the Home Fleet, but she also can't do anything about it besides proposing new ship designs.
I disagree. Compared to our Cruisers, its a bigger and more heavily armed, but slower ship. Such a ship can be very useful as a mobile sefensive strongpoint, allowing us to support an offensive push or defend neighbouring systems. Without a Jump Drive, this large ship can only defend Home, where we never want to fight in the first place if we can avoid it. In the short term, a Monitor with Jump capability would really help defend Deep Hope.
Actually, it might be too late for that, but I'll throw in a new idea.
[X] Write-In: Monitor, 6500 tonnes, no jump drive, AND Companion Jump Sloop, ??? tonnes, with jump drive.
-[X] The Monitor is intended as a defensive warship, prioritizing in-system operations, with primary armament consisting of particle beams. Additional features might include shockwave missiles, mass drivers. While the Monitor does not have a Jump Drive, also design a companion ship which can interface with the Monitor and use its Jump Drive to ferry the larger ship to another system.
[X] Write-In: Monitor, 6500 tonnes, one jump
-[X] Intended as semi-mobile defensive warship, prioritizing in-system operations, with primary armament consisting of particle beams. Additional features might include shockwave missiles, mass drivers, perhaps even fuel drop tanks.
3-2: JUMPFLASH
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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How many Deep Space Surveyors does the Navy plan to build? Two
How many segments of the station will be constructed simultaneously? Two - Taking over three years to complete
What is the Navy's construction plan for the coming years?
- Monitor, 6500 tonnes, one jump. Intended as semi-mobile defensive warship, prioritizing in-system operations, with primary armament consisting of particle beams. Additional features might include shockwave missiles, mass drivers, perhaps even fuel drop tanks.
- Lancer-class expeditionary destroyer, 3000 tons. Built for deploying torpedo and particle firepower and FLF troops anywhere in the local volume.
Split Attention
While the decision making on the surveyors and the space station construction procedures is uncomplicated - Plans being made for two and two being laid down as soon as possible, using two-thousand tons of yard space and delivering increased capabilities over the next few years. This does require the last of the Navy's yard space - with the next free spot becoming available in the start of the fourth year.
The difficulty is, however, in the choice of how to next plan for the future. Almost half of the SWS's committee on war-planning and the construction board consider the need to rebuild Home's defences now that so many patrol ships have been re-allocated as defence stations around the various heavenly bodies. They would argue in favour of a multi-kiloton warship that is as much a statement of intent as it is a fighting vessel. It's primary mission would be defensive, but a limited jump capability would enable it to make transits along the line and potentially even make it capable of operating in some small offensive capacity. With such a massive size it would also be the most offensively capable ship ever built, despite the limitations imposed by its small jump capability.
Others, meanwhile, and a significant proportion of them, argue for a smaller, sleeker ship that is, in many ways, as much a marine assault ship as it is a warship. The 'Lancer' expeditionary destroyer would fit particle weapons and torpedoes, an aggressively offensive armament, while also carrying internal fuel for three interstellar jumps. This would give it the ability to rapidly redeploy within Home controlled space, not needing to pause to refuel, while also giving it some capability to extend beyond Home space for any potentially distant expansionism.
When additional input is sought out from different spheres of the Home governing bodies and beyond, the following understanding is garnered:
- The Citizens Council is pleased with the idea of a massive multi-function warship along the lines of the 6,500 ton Monitor, as this would be ideal for forcing peace in the neighbouring systems. However given that such a vessel could not be laid down until the beginning of year 5 and would take nearly three years to build, this seems more like something that should be laid down once the S'Taxu system is pacified.
- The City Militia is, unsurprisingly, firmly in support of the expeditionary destroyer. The ability to expend the reach of their FLFI forces beyond the Home system would be a welcome force multiplier, and would allow for greater and more significant actions without relying on friendly or allied forces for ground or boarding operations. The combat in S'Taxu has made it clear that FLFI forces should be much more significantly present on future warships.
- Steenbeck Security Industries have no particular interest in which ship is built, so long as it predominantly armed with particle weapons sourced from the primary provider of such weapon systems. Torpedoes are a sham and missiles are ineffective, and even lasers are untrustworthy compared to the confidence and alacrity of the near-C particle accelerator.
- The Mengalists toss their support behind the Monitor - despite the length of time it would take to complete and despite the fact that it would almost fully the yards for three years, they believe it would be the best possible choice for the protection of Home and the defence of our allies.
- The Ciwanan group see no reason to build anything but interstellar cruisers, or perhaps an updated version of the same design. With the support of the FSS, we will be able to transit a cruiser group to much longer ranges than they are currently capable of, an attack fleet par excellence. Perhaps a second one of these ships would be ideal, so long as it is matched with an expansion of the cruiser fleet as well.
The decision makers are split. How would you make each design more appealing to the other side?
The Monitor:
[ ] Reduce the size to 4,000 tons, reducing construction time and saving yard space for other projects.
[ ] Add a marine contingent to the Monitor, allowing it to operate as a landing ship as well.
[ ] Other - write-in.
The Expeditionary Destroyer:
[ ] Reduce the size to 2,000 tons, allowing one to be built in S'Taxu as well as in Home.
[ ] Increase the size to 4,000 tons, allowing the ship to straddle both capabilities.
[ ] Other - write-in.
JUMPFLASH - (03y09m00w)
- Jump Flash detected by Inner System tracking array, 0917. Back Tracking suggests origin point 4 light minutes from network.
- SDD HSWS Zelus coordinates response by HSWS Pallas, HSWS Tohil, 0924.
- HSWS Zelus sends traffic "Stranger Return, Authenticate", 0927
- HSWS Zelus sends traffic "Stranger Return, Squawk Flash. All Friendlies, Stranger is Threat Yellow, repeat, Threat Yellow.", 0951.
- Intercept bearings logged for two cruisers. Pallas is nineteen hours from engagement range, Tohil twenty-three hours.
- Jump Flash detected by Inner system tracking array, 1026. Small object inbound towards Home.
- Repeated messages to inbound object receive no response. Tracking indicates non-powered approach, limited Radar/Lidar returns.
- Pallas intercepts object seventeen hours after first Jump Flash. Escape pod recovered aboard ship.
The escape pod - a design similar but not identical to our own types - is brought aboard the HSWS Pallas and transported back to orbit around Home. There, it is taken aboard a FLFI shuttle and painstakingly assessed and scanned over the course of twelve hours. Finally, with the leaders of the fleet watching, the seals are cracked and the pod is opened.
Inside are two overly dishevelled looking people, people who are identified as First Lieutenant Serdar Burakgazi (HSWS Heimdall) and Able Spacehand Ural Solak (HSWS Heimdall). Eighteen months since the loss of the Heimdall, two of the survivors have been returned to us by an unidentified jump capable ship that analysis confirms is sub-500 tons. They are immediately taking for debriefing by the security services.
While I realise that you want to know everything, pick the main questions you would like answered (choose three):
[ ] What was the ship that returned you?
[ ] What happened to the Heimdall?
[ ] Were you treated well?
[ ] What do you know about the strength of the Junta's Navy?
[ ] What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
[ ] Other - Write-in.
We're going to try a lil Moratorium to encourage discussion. Voting opens at 1500BST.
Coyote Niff
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I'm more than happy to modify the design to lose a few tons of ammo or particle turrets in the name of expanding its range; my initial concept was that the Lancer trades range for firepower, not jumping in-system unless requested by Survey captains-that's on me for not explaining in detail. Also, I will re-iterate that I'm writing from the Multispectrum Warfare Office for a reason-I firmly believe that treating spacecraft like a boat and a space fleet like a navy is a bad plan, and our craft should be as aerospace as possible.
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
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@4WheelSword in light of current moratoria, are we still encouraged to draw up OPLANS as part of discussion? Don't want to step on any toes.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Yeah! Please absolutely use this time to plan and discuss options.
What does that mean? I just don't understand what purpose the Lancer would serve. Couldn't we just make an Assault Transport (around 1K tonnes, lots of marines, two jumps) that cooperates with Interstellar Cruisers and Flotilla Support Ships?
That said, the situation changes as we suddenly have our survivors back. I think the first thing I'd to is to send a ship to S'taxu to check what's going on there. Notice we had Interstellar Cruisers on rotation there, but we didn't get an indication that something was up.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think a multi purpose longer range ship that can back up our scouts is a welcome addition to the fleet and believe wholeheartedly in the Lancer class. I am against increasing it's size and would prefer to scrap the monitor plan altogether to focus on it; I am broadly against ballooning the Lancer up.
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The Monitor:
[ ] Reduce the size to 4,000 tons, reducing construction time and saving yard space for other projects.
This would make it consistent with our other 2 system defense destroyers. Still a reasonably large ship.
The Expeditionary Destroyer:
[ ] Reduce the size to 2,000 tons, allowing one to be built in S'Taxu as well as in Home.
This seems potentially valuable if it allows us to build two of these vessels.
[ ] Increase the size to 4,000 tons, allowing the ship to straddle both capabilities.
Or just fully go big and expand on the assault/carrier capabilities.
[ ] Reduce the size to 4,000 tons, reducing construction time and saving yard space for other projects.
This would make it consistent with our other 2 system defense destroyers. Still a reasonably large ship.
The Expeditionary Destroyer:
[ ] Reduce the size to 2,000 tons, allowing one to be built in S'Taxu as well as in Home.
This seems potentially valuable if it allows us to build two of these vessels.
[ ] Increase the size to 4,000 tons, allowing the ship to straddle both capabilities.
Or just fully go big and expand on the assault/carrier capabilities.
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I'd still like to suggest this for the Monitor:
[X] Write-In: Monitor, 6500 tonnes, no jump drive, AND Companion Jump Sloop, ??? tonnes, with jump drive.
-[X] The Monitor is intended as a defensive warship, prioritizing in-system operations, with primary armament consisting of particle beams. Additional features might include shockwave missiles, mass drivers. While the Monitor does not have a Jump Drive, also design a companion ship which can interface with the Monitor and use its Jump Drive to ferry the larger ship to another system.
Keep the size, remove the Jump Drive, and design a companion tug ship. This gives the ship both serious firepower, and lets us to redeploy it outside Home if needed. Initially, we don't even have to build the Jump Drive tugboat, only design it.
[X] Write-In: Monitor, 6500 tonnes, no jump drive, AND Companion Jump Sloop, ??? tonnes, with jump drive.
-[X] The Monitor is intended as a defensive warship, prioritizing in-system operations, with primary armament consisting of particle beams. Additional features might include shockwave missiles, mass drivers. While the Monitor does not have a Jump Drive, also design a companion ship which can interface with the Monitor and use its Jump Drive to ferry the larger ship to another system.
Keep the size, remove the Jump Drive, and design a companion tug ship. This gives the ship both serious firepower, and lets us to redeploy it outside Home if needed. Initially, we don't even have to build the Jump Drive tugboat, only design it.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Question-wise, I'm a fan of these three:
[ ] What was the ship that returned you?
[ ] What happened to the Heimdall?
[ ] Were you treated well?
I will continue to advocate against getting involved in a shooting war with the junta (and was against the orbital bombardment operation as well).
[ ] What was the ship that returned you?
[ ] What happened to the Heimdall?
[ ] Were you treated well?
I will continue to advocate against getting involved in a shooting war with the junta (and was against the orbital bombardment operation as well).
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
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uh oh the Corpos...my IC likes weird pork barrel defense spending only slightly more than she cares for the sides we picked on S'taxu 
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.[X]OPLAN: Peace Coast
-[X] Write-in: Increase the Lancer's size to whatever tonnage necessary for a four-jump drive stack, allowing the ship to escort DSS missions at any range.
-[X] Write-in: use remaining increased size due to jump range boost to add additional weapons space for both new Type-20 torpedoes and SSI's best particle barbettes.
-[X] What was the ship that returned you?
-[X] What happened to the Heimdall?
-[X] What do you know about the situation in S'Taxu?
-[X] Doctrinal Write-in: keep the returned POWs in full medical quarantine; make sure their "rescuers" haven't left behind any CBRN threats as a ploy.
The Multispectrum Warfare Office remains deeply gratified by the interest of the Council, Militia, and Fleet Command in our latest design, carrying as it does the lineage of multiple earlier programs that remain the pride and joy of its staff. Based upon the critiques levied against the new Lancer-class design, we propose increasing the hull mass proposed from 3000 tons to whatever scale is necessary to add jump capability that paces the Deep Space Surveyors the Lancer is partially intended to escort. While corporate interests in the defense field have expressed suspicion and derision of the new Type 20 standoff torpedo, we are more than willing to add to this new mode of firepower by reserving some of our weapons decks for the latest in particle barbettes for point defense and ship-to-ship "knife fights"-hopefully quieting these mercenary-minded protests.
Like all our comrades in the Fleet and, indeed, all the People's Daughters, this office is overjoyed to hear of the safe return of two of our POWs from the lost Heimdall. It is crucial that, above all, we learn the fate of our craft and its crew, especially the location and status of those potentially still held by the S'taxi People's Military Council. Additionally, we must ascertain the current situation in S'taxu from the perspective of these survivors; they offer an unprecedented, if limited, opportunity to see the "inner workings" of the democratic factions on S'taxu, the primary "threat" to our erstwhile allies in the Dynast camp-it is entirely too likely that the information they can provide will change our conduct in the conflict. Finally, we must know all we can of their "rescuers"-who they are, their military capabilities, why and how our POWs were released, and if this same faction who has such power in S'taxu is prepared to return more of the remaining Heimdall crew, or even the remains of our honored dead. Crucially, we must keep the POWs isolated until they have been medically cleared for travel-contact with "alien" factions outside of Home carries all the same risks of first contact spread of disease, even during a rescue mission.
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As for the questions, it seems to me:
[ ] What happened to the Heimdall? – We know the answer to that. It's better to ask what happened to them after Heimdall was destroyed and whether sensitive information was revealed.
[ ] What happened to the Heimdall? – We know the answer to that. It's better to ask what happened to them after Heimdall was destroyed and whether sensitive information was revealed.
We already can back up our scouts. We can support missions 2 parsec away with the ships we've got. Why isn't that good enough? Why wouldn't building additional troop carrier be enough to supplement those capabilities?
Monitor has already been reduced from 8K to 6,5K. If we reduce it to 4K we're basically building an SDD. We've got those.
Seriously... In my eyes building it bigger makes it worse, not better. Why would we devote 4K tonnes to long-range warship where we don't have enough in-system ships to fulfil our 70/30 doctrine? It's much more aggressive than the Monitor, but it's championed by a pro-democratic pacifist? What is wrong with a 1K, two-jump marine assault craft? How can the Monitor be changed to fit your desires?
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