Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I continue to think the monitor a boondoggle.
Also, what makes you think the guys on the opposite side are going to want to come to the home system on home ships after we bombed them from orbit with ortillery? It casts the peace talks more as surrender negotiations and gives it the feel of "Home dictating terms". It'd be better to put it in any kind of neutral territory in S'Taxu or even deep space.
The current plan feels like it's going to scuttle peace talks before they start.
Like why are we inviting Xyri? Just as some kind of neutral third party? They don't know anything about this as far as I'm aware.
Also, what makes you think the guys on the opposite side are going to want to come to the home system on home ships after we bombed them from orbit with ortillery? It casts the peace talks more as surrender negotiations and gives it the feel of "Home dictating terms". It'd be better to put it in any kind of neutral territory in S'Taxu or even deep space.
The current plan feels like it's going to scuttle peace talks before they start.
Like why are we inviting Xyri? Just as some kind of neutral third party? They don't know anything about this as far as I'm aware.
Last edited:
Presumably specifically because they have nothing to do with this.
The monitor might be a boondoggle but it's also a great big brick in the face that can't be ignored. It's honestly probably better as an offensive linebreaker than a defensive ship though. Doesn't matter too much if it's short-legged if it's only deployed abroad as part of planned actions.
Another issue with drop tanks: they don't play well with range-extending tenders. If you're keeping the tanks attached so that you can use them later in a remote sector, you'll be burning extra fuel. Another 18% or so for two jumps worth?
might be interesting if they could be used to "cheat" construction tonnage though. Or for something like a semi-mobile space station with a jump drive but no on-board fuel, using external tanks instead. Though perhaps that's what jump tugs are for.
The monitor might be a boondoggle but it's also a great big brick in the face that can't be ignored. It's honestly probably better as an offensive linebreaker than a defensive ship though. Doesn't matter too much if it's short-legged if it's only deployed abroad as part of planned actions.
Another issue with drop tanks: they don't play well with range-extending tenders. If you're keeping the tanks attached so that you can use them later in a remote sector, you'll be burning extra fuel. Another 18% or so for two jumps worth?
might be interesting if they could be used to "cheat" construction tonnage though. Or for something like a semi-mobile space station with a jump drive but no on-board fuel, using external tanks instead. Though perhaps that's what jump tugs are for.
Last edited:
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
[X] Inclusive Peace Talks
-[X] On a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by an equal number (1 each or other agreeable split) of Home and Junta vessels.
-[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
-[X] The People's Military Council
-[X] The Democratic Republic of Cassalon
-[X] The Xyphon Freedom League
-[X] The Democratic Peoples Council of Xyphon
-[X] Freedom! Strength! Unity! (a third split-off group of Xyphon Federation survivors)
-[X] Daughters of the People
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
-[X] On a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by an equal number (1 each or other agreeable split) of Home and Junta vessels.
-[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
-[X] The People's Military Council
-[X] The Democratic Republic of Cassalon
-[X] The Xyphon Freedom League
-[X] The Democratic Peoples Council of Xyphon
-[X] Freedom! Strength! Unity! (a third split-off group of Xyphon Federation survivors)
-[X] Daughters of the People
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
Last edited:
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
- Location
- Misery!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Fully behind this plan-it's exactly what I was hoping for
[X] Inclusive Peace Talks
The current plan seems... unwise to me.
For one, we're demanding the Junta come to our home system, which makes it feel like we're dictating terms. Given that we are the party that escalated this from a cold war equilibrium to the massive bloodbath that it's been, we cannot consider ourselves a neutral party; in public perception on S'Taxu we're probably considered more aggressive than the unpopular royals.
Inviting the Junta but nobody else also isn't a plan for lasting peace. The monarchy was unpopular before the allied with a bunch of aliens who started a bombing campaign that's led to the destruction of cities by our allies (if not directly by us); if we don't let the rebels negotiate terms there'll be endless resentment against the rulers and we'll just have a guerrilla war spring up in a few years that also considers us fair game.
Inviting Xyri is also a mistake. They've got their own power struggle going on, and getting them involved in this is a strong statement that we're leaving open to their interpretation. It may be viewed by some of the people on Xyri that they need to crash-build their defences against orbital bombardment and shoot down any Home ship that shows up in their sky because we are very willing to stick our dick into their local politics in order to back our preferred side by bombing cities. Alternatively, the people on Xyri who reached out to us about a coup might be upset that we didn't support them and hold a grudge when we seemingly rub it in their faces like this.
For one, we're demanding the Junta come to our home system, which makes it feel like we're dictating terms. Given that we are the party that escalated this from a cold war equilibrium to the massive bloodbath that it's been, we cannot consider ourselves a neutral party; in public perception on S'Taxu we're probably considered more aggressive than the unpopular royals.
Inviting the Junta but nobody else also isn't a plan for lasting peace. The monarchy was unpopular before the allied with a bunch of aliens who started a bombing campaign that's led to the destruction of cities by our allies (if not directly by us); if we don't let the rebels negotiate terms there'll be endless resentment against the rulers and we'll just have a guerrilla war spring up in a few years that also considers us fair game.
Inviting Xyri is also a mistake. They've got their own power struggle going on, and getting them involved in this is a strong statement that we're leaving open to their interpretation. It may be viewed by some of the people on Xyri that they need to crash-build their defences against orbital bombardment and shoot down any Home ship that shows up in their sky because we are very willing to stick our dick into their local politics in order to back our preferred side by bombing cities. Alternatively, the people on Xyri who reached out to us about a coup might be upset that we didn't support them and hold a grudge when we seemingly rub it in their faces like this.
always_confused
Perpetually unwanted
- Location
- SEA
I welcome dictating terms to our future slaves.
That's a valid point, but remember that the biggest hurdle is going to be convincing our own Council to go along with our plan.
In contrast, if we do invite everyone as the Inclusive Peace Talks plan suggests, we'll end up with the Dynasts feeling crowded out and rejecting the demands, same as before. At the very least, the democratic factions ought to appear as one delegation.
Inviting Xyri is more of an attempt at producing some wider deal that includes all three systems. Their presence is not imperative, but we might benefit from it if we play our cards right.
BTW, the Inclusive Peace Talks also invites Daughters of the People. Yes, it's in character for Coyote's character, but it's a sure way for our politicians to scoff at the suggestion and torpedo our credibility in the talks. Also, we know nothing about Freedom! Strength! Unity!, but their name sounds rather radical to me.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Well, they wouldn't exist if we hadn't bombed everything and forced the splintering of the two main groups that used to exist. So we are dealing with the consequences of our actions.
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
- Location
- Misery!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*Takes off my "Coyote 💖s Freedom, Strength, Unity" hat with a miserable expression*
If we invite the fractured Democratic forces, I think it's perfectly reasonable to "show our own belly" and invite the Daughters-it shows more of our culture to our recent enemies than the part they've seen so far-a monolithic military that sits in orbit, pops their city-domes like blisters, and kills their friends from thermobaric shock when a particle beam cracks atmo. Not that we've actually done that first part, but based on POW testimony, some people believe that about us.
Also, I like radicals in fiction! Either they'll be weird pseudo-democrat fashies that nobody else likes, or goofy space reds, or something even better!
I would assume that due to their unified role as pro-dems, we'd see the Xyphoni resistance pop up as one delegation-but not inviting all of them is a sure way to make things break down once we have a peace that's only partially recognized and a faction who doesn't like it starts putting steel drums full of RDX underneath major railways or something. Also, the Dynasts are sticks in the mud anyway, so maybe they need the "tough love" of a compromise deal-with our SWB at their back, they aren't nearly so crowded out.
We need to push back against the government's stupidity at some point instead of just encouraging its excesses. S'Taxu has shown they have jump drive tech, meaning they are now an existential threat to our survival - the Junta can, if they so choose, wipe a Home city off the map with a surprise nuclear strike we cannot block. Lasting victory is almost impossible when the populace is in opposition to the genocidal royals and their alien backers. FSU's potential radicalism is a consequence of our own actions.
[X] Inclusive Peace Talks
Last edited:
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@4WheelSword is this vote for "who gets invited" or "who we suggest inviting, with the Council having final say"?
Naturally, but I'd rather keep our political capital for when we discuss terms.
BTW, notice that Junta explicitly wants us to be the power brokers in this deal. That's one more reason to hold the talks at Home and don't dilute it too much.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
The latter, though the navy has some ability to dictate affairs by, uh... having jump ships.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think hosting it in S'Taxu in cooperation with the Junta sends a stronger message about changing political priorities and potentially about how willing we are to eat crow for past transgressions.
But we're not changing the priorities. That's the Council's job. We're only selling them on the idea that our goals are better achieved by brokering an agreement.
MordredRaal
Agitating
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] Inclusive Peace Talks
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
We should be changing priorities and pivoting from sticking our oar into other people's civil war and make our opinion on that clear to the government; they cannot execute or pursue war without us on board.
Like, we could have slow-walked involvement in the war beyond token supplies until we had a better idea of stuff. We did not do that. So we should course correct (or attempt to do so) if we can.
[X] Inclusive Peace Talks
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
I think the only thing the Gargant Moniteur has for it is that it uses the same number of pilots.
Speaking off - @4WheelSword, could you please tell what is the Home's pilot situation? How close the Navy is to pilot shortage?
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
I think the only thing the Gargant Moniteur has for it is that it uses the same number of pilots.
Speaking off - @4WheelSword, could you please tell what is the Home's pilot situation? How close the Navy is to pilot shortage?
Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
We're starting to develop a history of going off half-cocked. My desire in getting spies to infiltrate the Dynasts was so that we could have something in hand that we could show to the government as evidence that our alliance was ill-considered.
Right now, my fear is that we'll seem inconsistent and unable to stick to a given policy, and come off as all the more untrustworthy for it.
[X] Plan Ceasefire
-[X] On a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by an equal number (1 each or other agreeable split) of Home and Junta vessels.
-[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
-[X] The People's Military Council
-[X] The Democratic Republic of Cassalon
-[X] The Xyphon Freedom League
-[X] The Democratic Peoples Council of Xyphon
I think something like this is the best of bad options: inviting the Daughters of the People seems like a horrible idea (everyone we're trying to negotiate with already doesn't like us, we don't need to add the people in charge of appropriations to that list.)
Right now, my fear is that we'll seem inconsistent and unable to stick to a given policy, and come off as all the more untrustworthy for it.
[X] Plan Ceasefire
-[X] On a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by an equal number (1 each or other agreeable split) of Home and Junta vessels.
-[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
-[X] The People's Military Council
-[X] The Democratic Republic of Cassalon
-[X] The Xyphon Freedom League
-[X] The Democratic Peoples Council of Xyphon
I think something like this is the best of bad options: inviting the Daughters of the People seems like a horrible idea (everyone we're trying to negotiate with already doesn't like us, we don't need to add the people in charge of appropriations to that list.)
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
If we can get the Dynasty and the Military Council on the same page then getting everyone else to fall in line by hook or crook will be a lot simpler, and having only two delegations hashing it out is simpler as well. It also covers our interests if things stall there because nobody else has direct space access.
[X] One a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by Home ships.
[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
[X] The People's Military Council
(I'll also note I'm skeptical of the Dynasty as partners given that their grand military offensive we aided seems to have resolved very little.)
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
[X] One a neutral planet or asteroid in the S'Taxu system, guarded by Home ships.
[X] The Chambrestrong Dynasty
[X] The People's Military Council
(I'll also note I'm skeptical of the Dynasty as partners given that their grand military offensive we aided seems to have resolved very little.)
[X] The 3,000 ton multi-mission vehicle
Last edited:
If that's the case, I advise to make at least some revisions to Plan Inclusive Peace Talks. There's no reason for our Council to go with it. From their perspective we are winning and either dragging our feet or behaving inconsistently. At the very least do not invite the Daughters. It's the surest way burn all our goodwill at the beginning. Daughters are not involved in this affair and are trouble-makers in the eyes of the Council.