Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

I wasn't a fan of the fight. As others have pointed out Taylor wasn't showing the same logical efficiency she has previously.

That being said, I loved the father daughter scene. :)
It was cute and heartwarming with a nice side of exposition.
 
I would just like to ask that you please don't delete the original version. Just leave it threadmarked under apocrypha with a note at the top of the post denoting it as non-canon. Its still good to read, after all.
 
I think what you could've done with Bakuda was have her go to ground and commit to guerrilla warfare and terror tactics.

Why?

As far as skillsets go, Taylor has focused on brute force and endurance, two things completely useless for an opponent who isn't there to fight you.

I'm pretty sure Bakuda is the kind of person who would definitely feel smug about making someone who out brute Lung feel demoralized and helpless about being unable to stop her from striking fear into the city.
 
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Honestly @ensou this Taylor feels much more like she should be an ambush striker. She has spent a not inconsoderable time bolstering her body's survival capability because she already knows she isn't invincible. She knows damned well what it's like to be hurt and the whole thing with her spine shows she has few problems planning and making contingencies that other FOG units lack. The very fact that her Klien field gives her a very well defined(to her) metric with which to measure just how much she can face tank forces her to acknowledge that she is very far from invincible.

The only reason why she would be doing the slow terminator walk is for the purposes of intimidation of people that she damned well knows aren't a threat.

Now, the rewrite of the combat scene was significantly better. Both Taylor and Bakuda were significantly more dynamic. But Bakuda should never have been in direct conflict with Taylor. She knows well enough when to withdraw and the moment Taylor face tanked the ice bomb was when she should hav cut and run or brought out more hostages.

All of that said, I am somewhat surprised that Taylor hasn't at any point thought about a method of long range engagement. Yeah, she can close range pretty fast and most long range is going to be fun fire but without an option she is just plain incapable of taking out fliers of which BB is home to a few.

Honestly, I feel that combat in this should be short and sweet. Like a sniper battle. Plenty of plans and set up and then over in seconds.
 
As someone who spends a LOT of time reading fanfiction one thing I've learned is you definitely want to have some breathing room between big fights.

A paragraph or so of a character taking down some mooks in a potentially interesting or funny way is one thing. But when you put big nearly full chapter, or worse multiple chapter, fights back to back it actually gets pretty boring.

Fights work best as a visual spectacle. That's not to say it's impossible to write them in an engaging way, but it IS much harder to do so. From personal experience you'd be surprised how often you can mentally replace whole fight scenes with "Character A punches Character B in the face really hard" and miss surprisingly little as a reader.

A big fight is supposed to be the climax of an interest curve, the peak of a particular arc or sub arc as it were. But if you spend too much time up there that peak turns into a flatline if you pardon the metaphor. You need some of that rising and falling action in between them!
 
I'm going to add myself to the pile of "I'm not reading this for the fight scenes." I'd be just fine if all the fights get glossed over so we can have more of that sweet, sweet character interaction. Fight scenes in literature don't really do all that much for me, especially fights of a more fantastical nature. 10,000-plus words of what amounts to a shonen anime fight or some humongous pulp sci-fi space battle leaves me bored to tears.
 
There are other options...Circus (okay, that might be pushing it).
This actually seems more entertaining and useful for forcing Taylor to think the more I consider it. I mean, think about it. Circus, due to the nature of their powers, absolutely has to fight smart. Which makes them a nice example to Taylor of how to leverage powers creatively. They might not be able to hurt Taylor, but they could probably escape from her at least once. More than once, I suspect, if Taylor doesn't learn from their first encounter.
Yeah, actually this is a pretty good way of putting it. The Bakuda fight part has now been cut out, but I think that was the biggest problem I had with it. Given that Bakuda hired Uber and Leet to mess with Relentless so she can get data on her, the trap she set for Relentless was pretty disappointing as if she didn't use any of that data to make plan at all. And given how disappointing Bakuda's plan was, it should have been a curb stomp especially with the abilities Taylor showed previously. Trying to make it not a curb stomp makes things non-consistent.
Uh...you sure that was Bakuda, and not Coil? Because that seems way more like Coil's MO.
Actually, there's some merit to this. Remember how Vista was able to warp Taylor due to her being non-biological? Circus has Hammerspace as one of their powers. What if they fight and Circus touches her, is told by their power that they can steal what they're touching (thinking it's just the armour) and then steals Taylor wholesale? Do they sell Relentless to the highest bidder? When she gets out, does she swear to destroy Circus or is she terrified of them? How do the heroes and villains react to Relentless being trumped by a petty crook like that? What do the nanomachines in the Graveyard do while Taylor is incommunicado? Etc
Well that just makes it even better. Unfortunately, Circus is more of the 'steal sh*t, GTFO' school of thought. Also, close-range is not their favorite range. They're damn dangerous with throwing knives.
Bakuda has an interesting power set, but it's absolutely terrible for writing big, dramatic fight scenes. The problem is that she's a squishy normal human with powerful attacks but no meaningful defense. So logically, any fight she has with a high-end opponent should be over very fast. Either she catches her enemy with a bomb that one-shots them, or they quickly turn her into a smear on the pavement.

Really, what made the fight scene so weak was the fact that Taylor basically just stood there and let Bakuda rain attacks down on her. If they'd been trading blows the fight would have been over in a couple of paragraphs.
Not necessarily. Not if she's had time to trap the area. If the fight's on her own turf, she's a lot more dangerous, and the fight's going to be a bit longer than that. Especially with her teleportation grenades. She might be squishy, and her power might be utter garbage for close-range fighting, but she's still actually a pretty big threat, and she has options even at close-range. Not amazing options, but options.

I've outlined several methods by which she could actually end up as a challenge or threat to Relentless. If her WFA is out of commission, suddenly this fight becomes a hell of a lot more interesting. If there are captives, it would also be a lot more interesting.
I think what you could've done with Bakuda was have her go to ground and commit to guerrilla warfare and terror tactics.

Why?

As far as skillsets go, Taylor has focused on brute force and endurance, two things completely useless for an opponent who isn't there to fight you.

I'm pretty sure Bakuda is the kind of person who would definitely feel smug about making someone who out brute Lung feel demoralized and helpless about being unable to stop her from striking fear into the city.
Yep. Landmines and booby-traps are much better than a face-to-face encounter, for Bakuda.
Honestly, I feel that combat in this should be short and sweet. Like a sniper battle. Plenty of plans and set up and then over in seconds.
Define 'plans and set up'. I think something more like hide-and-seek would be a better metaphor. Only with more explosions and drones. Both sides trying to ambush the other.

On the plus side, you reminded me of my days as a medic in Planetside 2 (a sci-fi MMOFPS), reviving dead snipers who got counter-sniped. While either behind cover myself, or dancing back and forth to keep the enemy sniper(s) from drawing a bead on me (it's rather like the Medic gun in TF2, where there's a limit on the range from which you can heal/revive, so sometimes I had to be out in the open). I was fairly good at not getting hit, or so I like to think. Of course, ocassionally my 'patients' would immediately eat another bullet, but them's the breaks. And it was more exp for me, so I didn't mind.
 
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So yeah. I might pull some weird shit. Twei and I talked about what might have happened had Taylor not known Bakuda looked for her at the Graveyard, and the Protectorate got to her before Taylor did. Like, wouldn't that have been different? Wouldn't it have been interesting? Instead of Taylor doing things on her own, she might start to realized that, hey, maybe unlike her experiences in high school, the authorities aren't always incompetent.

No matter what you decide, I'll be here enjoying your writing.

Spoiler'd due to me not wanting to be presumptuous, but being unable to keep my fingers from typing. Hell, you could have Relentless about to charge the building only to get Vista'd a few blocks over. Cue an out of breath Vista warning relentless about Bakuda's dead man switch(es), and the fact that most of the explosions in the city had been people. Or something like that. Or tattletale intervention. Or any number of things.
 
Uh...you sure that was Bakuda, and not Coil? Because that seems way more like Coil's MO.
It might have gotten edited out, but I'm fairly certain I remember the author putting in an author's note that Uber and Leet were hired by Bakuda like in canon and she did it so she can get data on Relentless. Not that it matters now that the Bakuda vs. Relentless fight isn't going to happen now.

Erm, @ensou, I can no longer find the deathwing fight.
It's been mentioned a few times that it's being re-written. Hopefully it's going to be epic because I liked the fight as it was.
 
It might have gotten edited out, but I'm fairly certain I remember the author putting in an author's note that Uber and Leet were hired by Bakuda like in canon and she did it so she can get data on Relentless. Not that it matters now that the Bakuda vs. Relentless fight isn't going to happen now.
Huh. Seems a tad out of character for how she's described, but I suppose it makes sense with the precedent in canon.

Though, come to think of it, should Coil decide he wanted to get an idea of Relentless' skill, he'd end the timeline, so as not to tip her off. Also, it would save him from having to pay Uber and Leet. So it would be a less-than-optimal choice on his end to keep the timeline.
 
Though, come to think of it, should Coil decide he wanted to get an idea of Relentless' skill, he'd end the timeline, so as not to tip her off. Also, it would save him from having to pay Uber and Leet. So it would be a less-than-optimal choice on his end to keep the timeline.
Hm, maybe, but then again keeping the timeline also means L33t has used up his "build a giant animatronic dragon" and "build a private pocket dimension" gadget plans, and can't use them to mess up soon-to-be-Director Calvert's endgame. For someone as risk-averse as Coil that would in itself be a big benefit when it comes to personalities as erratic as the Gamer Goons.

The WoG is indeed that it was Bakuda who hired them, though, so baring rewrites in that respect as well he just gets it as a freebie.
 
But, IIRC Taylor hardly ever freezes up in Worm, I struggle to remember a time that she does. I mean, you'd think she'd freeze up against Lung but uh, only at first when he finds her IIRC, and then it's all panic fueled thinking out ways how to get out of the situation.

Taylor when faced with failure in Worm usually starts thinking up and testing out ways to succeed both in that situation, and in similar future ones.

Canon Taylor has to be extremely creative and utilize her power in unexpected ways to win or even survive. Up until now, this Taylor has just used Leroy Jenkins tactics, because that's all she's needed. This Taylor has been doing most of her thinking about non-combat issues.
 
So last night I was talking a little with @Twei about both the chapter content and the story overall.

And I came to the conclusion I wasn't happy with it.

Which raises the question: If I'm not happy with it, if the audience isn't satisfied (not happy, because god knows that shit can hit you hard but still feel right), and most importantly, if the characters are not consistent in their actions and voice and such inconsistencies are not intended, then why does it exist?

One person brought up a very good point: characterization is based on precedent, that is, the fact that the characters have acted the same -or at least similarly if there is continuing progressive development- over a number of instances. A character is established, and any deviation from that establishment should have a cause that, while some may not agree with the direction, is still understandable.

I won't deny that my thoughts were at least in part influenced by the response. It was. But there were problems with the second half of the chapter long before that. It wasn't easy or fun for me to write, and that's generally a sign there's something wrong.

I'll be honest: I'm tired of fights. They're hard. They're complex. They require a lot of narration and justification, and those things can change whether it's a well-written fight or a poor one. And they're really easy to fuck up.

I do not like having to force myself to write fights. It's been proven to me three times now, for AFHB 1.3, Deathwing, and now Bakuda here, that when I force myself to write a confrontations and fights, they suck.

So I've learned my lesson, and I'm not going to do it anymore. I know vaguely where this story is going. I've got plans for things happening in the long-run. I know what's going to happen with the Arpeggioverse. I have things planned for that.

But I'm not forcing myself to write any more fights.

Edit: I'm not saying I won't write fights at all, but rather I won't write fights where it doesn't feel natural, and I'm not excited or emotionally invested in writing it.

The funny thing is that I really should have learned this from Diatonic 1.3. Twice, I tried starting that chapter with a fight (just like I said there was going to be at the end of 1.2), to the point that I had almost three thousand words written, and it still didn't feel right.

So I didn't have a fight, and I instead had Taylor disappointed that she couldn't find one.

And that worked.

So yeah. I might pull some weird shit. Twei and I talked about what might have happened had Taylor not known Bakuda looked for her at the Graveyard, and the Protectorate got to her before Taylor did. Like, wouldn't that have been different? Wouldn't it have been interesting? Instead of Taylor doing things on her own, she might start to realized that, hey, maybe unlike her experiences in high school, the authorities aren't always incompetent.

I understand that fights are a part of Worm. However, Taylor doesn't have the intense drive for conflict that excuses so many other fights, even if she does have a drive to prove herself. She shouldn't necessarily be diving head-first into fight that she's already considered she might need help with. She had the capacity for thinking things through (or at least a degree of it, because teenagers) and taking a breath before charging forwards. Perhaps due to this, Taylor introduces an odd element into the generally predictable cape fights?

The Fog are very single-minded. Until very recently (as in, less than a year), they approached everything with overwhelming brute force. Outside of Blue Steel and the Scarlet Fleet, this is still how things are done: just look at Kongou's fight in the manga. She doesn't have enough firepower to deal with them, so what does she do? She brings in more ships. And the I-401 still manages to outmaneuver them.

Now, there's also the fact that Taylor is inexperienced (and a teenager). She has, through a twist of fate, ended up with an overwhelmingly powerful tool in the shape of a nanomaterial-composed hammer. And as we know, when you've got a hammer that works, everything looks like a nail.

Skitter was pushed to improvise, even before she went out. Her power itself didn't protect her, so she had to figure out how she would protect herself in creative ways (beetle-shell chitin armor plates?). She was forced to adapt and create in order to survive, whereas Relentless has not been.

Relentless' strategy for every fight thus far has been "let me hit it enough times, eventually it'll stop moving". Even with Deathwing, where in the rewrite she is being forced to strategize, the entire premise of the encounter was that with enough direct-ish damage, she would win. She's never been forced to out-think her opponent the way Skitter had to. Skitter may have become a paragon of situational adaptation and strategy, but Relentless is not. At least not yet.

She needs to learn that brute force does not solve everything, and that, yes, she does have limits. She may be smart, but she's not The Best Thinker Ever (cough Contessa cough). She may know a lot and have access to a great deal, but she's no Einstein or Hawking or Sun Tzu or Alexander of Macedon. She may be inhuman, but paradoxically, she is very human, by nature of being a Mental Model, which is all about having limitations.

Taylor is still a fifteen year-old teenage girl, and I don't know about you, but when I was a fifteen year-old teenage girl, I would have floundered and failed all over the place were I in Taylor's position. It's part of the reason (and I'm going to speak heresy here) Worm pushes my suspension of disbelief really hard. If there's one thing I've learned going through puberty and then watching my five-years-younger-than-me sister go through it, it's that teenagers who grow up in a developed society, are -by the exceedingly vast majority- illogical, make absolutely zero flippin' sense, and the exact opposite of mature. When I write Taylor, I tend to write her as twenty-ish mentally, simply because that's the level of voice she has in canon.

Yes, being Fog helps mitigate all that somewhat, but it doesn't give her a free pass to automatically succeed at everything. Being Fog does not preclude her from being an idiot(ic teenager).

Now, back to the Bakuda fight.

I'm removing it. Cut. Completely. Unlike Deathwing, it's not going to get rewritten. There will be a 2.2.2 that acts as the second half of the latest chapter. The arc has gotten re-outlined (to a degree), as plans that I had for the end of the arc have changed completely. Will Taylor still have to deal with Bakuda in a chapter-ish? Maybe. Maybe not. More than likely 'yes', but very differently. Taylor will still need to experience and learn from the lessons I've talked about, and that definitely happens best under pressure, when failure fucks you up hard.

I appreciate feedback. I like to think I'm generally very receptive and take criticism well, not as a personal attack, but something to learn from and get better with. This is a forum, and that's all about discussion and opinions, both positive and negative.

Something you might look into is working with another writer who likes writing fight scenes, and is good at it. You outline the scene, loosely, and let them write it. Then back-and-forth it a few times till it fits.

This will also give you the benefit of being able to pick the brain of a person who writes good fight scenes.
 
I don't understand why Worm authors feel obligated to include fight scenes. Yes, Worm had fight scenes, but that doesn't mean that the fanfics have to. I feel like other fandoms are at least slightly better about feeling free to go off in weird directions, but I haven't made a thorough analysis or anything so I might not be correct there.

Anyway, I'm glad that you're going in this direction and remember: even if a fight has to happen, if you can't write it well or you just don't want to write it, there are plenty of narratively satisfying ways to handle a fight off-screen.
 
Huh. Seems a tad out of character for how she's described, but I suppose it makes sense with the precedent in canon.

Though, come to think of it, should Coil decide he wanted to get an idea of Relentless' skill, he'd end the timeline, so as not to tip her off. Also, it would save him from having to pay Uber and Leet. So it would be a less-than-optimal choice on his end to keep the timeline.
Hm, maybe, but then again keeping the timeline also means L33t has used up his "build a giant animatronic dragon" and "build a private pocket dimension" gadget plans, and can't use them to mess up soon-to-be-Director Calvert's endgame. For someone as risk-averse as Coil that would in itself be a big benefit when it comes to personalities as erratic as the Gamer Goons.

The WoG is indeed that it was Bakuda who hired them, though, so baring rewrites in that respect as well he just gets it as a freebie.

That would be a really expensive project for Coil. Leet building stuff takes time and he if he is doing it as a commissioned order he'd have received the instruction first. This means that for Coil to do this he'd likely have his power tied up for days. Those are days he isn't manipulating stocks, days he isn't micromanaging his mercenaries, days he isn't sending out the Undersiders on phantom missions and so on.

As for depleting Leet's abilities... U&L work for Coil. Sabotaging them for no good reason is kinda counterproductive.

I don't understand why Worm authors feel obligated to include fight scenes. Yes, Worm had fight scenes, but that doesn't mean that the fanfics have to. I feel like other fandoms are at least slightly better about feeling free to go off in weird directions, but I haven't made a thorough analysis or anything so I might not be correct there.

Anyway, I'm glad that you're going in this direction and remember: even if a fight has to happen, if you can't write it well or you just don't want to write it, there are plenty of narratively satisfying ways to handle a fight off-screen.

Well, the setting kinda runs on conflict... I mean between shards, Endbringers and the whole villain vs villains vs heroes thing there is a lot of fighting going on. You need to break from canon immensely to have a Worm fanfic without fights. You could do it with an oddball story like the little Zizter one where the focus has been shifted a lot. But in a fanfic where the entire point is that Taylor now is a powerful brute and able to build a giant battleship body what point is there if you never show those powers? And showing powers like that means fight scenes.
 
I'm hoping Bakuda shows up again, since she's one of the few people that could actually stand a chance of killing Taylor.
 
Not necessarily. Not if she's had time to trap the area. If the fight's on her own turf, she's a lot more dangerous, and the fight's going to be a bit longer than that. Especially with her teleportation grenades. She might be squishy, and her power might be utter garbage for close-range fighting, but she's still actually a pretty big threat, and she has options even at close-range. Not amazing options, but options.

I've outlined several methods by which she could actually end up as a challenge or threat to Relentless. If her WFA is out of commission, suddenly this fight becomes a hell of a lot more interesting. If there are captives, it would also be a lot more interesting.


You're responding to a claim I didn't make. I didn't say Bakuda isn't a threat. I said that fight scenes involving her should tend to be very short, because you can't get the traditional give and take of each side attacking and defending while they try various stratagems. Instead Bakuda's first attack kills 99% of possible opponents, but the few that survive are the sort of powerhouse that can casually one-shot her with their first counterattack. Dragging things out into a long fight generally requires one side or the other to be blindly stupid (i.e. a Brute stomping through a minefield she set up, setting off bomb after bomb until they hit one that works), or else turns it into a different kind of scene (i.e. Bakuda calls her enemy and tries to trick them into range of a trap she's left somewhere).
 
Well, the setting kinda runs on conflict... I mean between shards, Endbringers and the whole villain vs villains vs heroes thing there is a lot of fighting going on. You need to break from canon immensely to have a Worm fanfic without fights. You could do it with an oddball story like the little Zizter one where the focus has been shifted a lot. But in a fanfic where the entire point is that Taylor now is a powerful brute and able to build a giant battleship body what point is there if you never show those powers? And showing powers like that means fight scenes.

Even if fights have to occur, though, they can happen offscreen. It just seems like there are a lot (relatively speaking) of authors who feel obligated to write fight scenes in Worm fanfic when they'd really prefer not to.
 
Great, now I have the plot bunny of canon Taylor running around looking for fights... and always showing up a minute late. Eh, sounds like it end up like a bad Burn Up.
 
Even if fights have to occur, though, they can happen offscreen. It just seems like there are a lot (relatively speaking) of authors who feel obligated to write fight scenes in Worm fanfic when they'd really prefer not to.

It depends on why the person is writing. if they are trying to get better at writing, including fight scenes, they have to write them. Practice makes perfect. If they never write them, they'll never get better at them. might make for some bad writing at first, but most people can see what they did wrong or what others point out they did wrong and correct it.
 
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