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Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

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ensou said:
And what he says is basically "go see the numbers in this other thread", and then just builds off of that thread. That other thread only has calculations based on aluminum's ultimate tensile strength. Which, I'm going to point out now, is inherently flawed. Tensile strength does not give you the amount of force needed to cut through the layers. Shear strength does, and for aluminum that's 0.6 times the UTS.

The "galaxy" thing came from a throwaway comment of "you'd have to do something like throw a freaking solar system at it in order to do any damage" which then escalated to "it could survive a galaxy getting thrown at it". Which then went to math about figuring out the speed needed to penetrate to Leviathan's core when throwing the equivalent assumed mass of the observable universe with a restricted impact area of 1cm2​ , ending up with a result of about Mach 160 or one one-hundredth of a percent of the speed of light.

All of that has literally nothing to do about how much matter the Endbringers have or are made up of.

So I have no idea why Wildbow jumped from "throwing x amount of matter" to "digging through x amount of matter" in
while explicitly referencing that very thread unless he either a) didn't understand what was going on or b) skimmed when he was responding to the JLA versus argument and accidentally misinterpreted it.

So it shouldn't be "dig through" it should be "throw", with the added caveat of "at sufficient velocities probably approaching a full percent the speed of light", all calculated based on this UTS thing which I've pointed out is already incorrect for something like Armsmaster's special blade.

I hate things like bad WoG quotes.

I've already said how I interpret the Endbringers' existences both in this thread and over in the Zizster thread, which is effective overlay. The Focalpoint shard over there is a decent (simplified) explanation, with the Endbringers' bodies being composed of matter projected from multiple sources through a single concave lens-like point. So the closer to the core/dimensional lens you are, the denser the matter is, even to the point of being physics-breaking, just like light is less spread out (and thus equivalent areas are bright) the closer you are to a concave lens.
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If I remember that WoG correctly, the statement was, paraphrased, "to damage the core you need to throw the equivalent of the solar system at it, but by then you've already dug through a spiral galaxy's worth of mass". The main point I took away from it is that the Wndbringer core is ridiculously fragile compared to the inner layers surrounding the core.
 
EmperorArthur said:
As in, she can easily out blaster Purity right now levels of antimater.
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Since she can safely annihilate Antimatter for energy production purposes i don't see a reason why she couldn't release this energy through some kind of focusing array that results in blasts of energy that fuck up everything in the general direction they are pointed at.
 
ignisami said:
If I remember that WoG correctly, the statement was, paraphrased, "to damage the core you need to throw the equivalent of the solar system at it, but by then you've already dug through a spiral galaxy's worth of mass". The main point I took away from it is that the Wndbringer core is ridiculously fragile compared to the inner layers surrounding the core.
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TheUnicorn said:
Cite.

AFAIK he said you'd need to be able to destroy a galaxy of matter to destroy them by brute force, this along with the durability stupidity gets often misinterpreted as Endbringers have a huge amount of matter/mass but that's not what Wildbow said.
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No, that's quite literally what he said. I added in the actual WoG quote, as well as a link to the post I copied and pasted it from.
 
Starfield said:
Isn't Deathwing and Behemoth kind of comparable enemies in powerlevels and features?
Giant earth/lava based bosses that are very deadly and hard to defeat.
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Hard to say. Deathwing is literally magic, and covered in magical stuff. Whereas Behemoth has ridiculous dynakinesis, which... who knows?

They're very different in powers. Behemoth is probably harder to kill, if nothing else.
 
Candesce said:
It's Saitama.

If "Saitama can kill it with one punch" isn't a true axiom, you're not actually crossing over with his setting.
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I dunno, I'm a tad hesitant to take that approach, since it denies Saitama the one thing he desperately craves forever.

And if the fucking Endbringers aren't tough enough to take even a single punch from Saitama, then nothing ever will be.

And that's a depressing thought for the guy who just wants at least one good fight.
 
Vs debates based on 'space magic' are pretty pointless. Wildbow should have just stuck with space magic is space magic and left it there. XKCD did a nice bit on how if you had a neutron bullet, it would instantly sink to the center of what ever planet/star it is on. Assuming it didn't immediately depressurize and vaporize the atmosphere. So a person made of something that dense would also either instantly conflagrate the planet or sink to the core.

Any who, I wonder just how many groups detected her little test flight, even a small craft breaking escape velocity is sure to draw attention.
 
ensou said:
No, that's quite literally what he said. I added in the actual WoG quote, as well as a link to the post I copied and pasted it from.
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No, that's literally what he didn't say. There are two issues first the word "effectively", i.e you wouldn't actually need to "dig through a spiral galaxy's equivalent of matter" that's just the equivalent effect. Second the regeneration means that you'd need to dig through a lot more matter than the Endbringer's total mass to get to the core.
 
ensou said:
It's bland as fuck, and I can totally see that now, actually.
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As a counterpoint, I actually like it feeling more like a chore than a life-or-death battle. Taylor was having a great day, then this just gets in the way of it. It's just annoying, and I like that vibe. It's probably the best justification for her not finding and murdering them, really.

Plus, this is Leet. Giving him the ability to make something on that level just seems wrong.
 
Swordchucks said:
As a counterpoint, I actually like it feeling more like a chore than a life-or-death battle. Taylor was having a great day, then this just gets in the way of it. It's just annoying, and I like that vibe. It's probably the best justification for her not finding and murdering them, really.

Plus, this is Leet. Giving him the ability to make something on that level just seems wrong.
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Giving the guy who can make anything once something extremely powerful seems wrong.

Well, okay then.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I dunno, I'm a tad hesitant to take that approach, since it denies Saitama the one thing he desperately craves forever.

And if the fucking Endbringers aren't tough enough to take even a single punch from Saitama, then nothing ever will be.

And that's a depressing thought for the guy who just wants at least one good fight.
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I think it was mentioned somewhere that he can in fact throw a punch powerful enough to destroy a universe.. don't quote me on that though
 
Swordchucks said:
As a counterpoint, I actually like it feeling more like a chore than a life-or-death battle. Taylor was having a great day, then this just gets in the way of it. It's just annoying, and I like that vibe. It's probably the best justification for her not finding and murdering them, really.

Plus, this is Leet. Giving him the ability to make something on that level just seems wrong.
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He can build anything, barring something he's made before/something close to what he's made before. A pocket dimension doodad that functions differently from any other ones he's built, a giant mechanical dragon, and a device that makes stuff in said pocket dimension aren't all that far fetched.
 
PAGDTenno said:
Giving the guy who can make anything once something extremely powerful seems wrong.

Well, okay then.
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He managed to make a stable pocket dimension with a giant-ass dragon in it. That's pretty impressive in and of itself. Having that dragon be arguably on the level of an Endbringer IS a bit much. Just because he isn't restricted in the same way as other tinkers by category doesn't mean he can just break the power curve entirely. More than that, it's not necessary to what he's trying to do. He intentionally doesn't want to kill her, just delay her. Having a big dragon that's powerful and stupidly tough is more in his interests than a world-ending threat.

Thematically, I like the vibe better if it's "this shit again" and not "oh, no, I'm going to die!!1!!!". If this did get revised, I'd actually like to see the time aspect and frustration factor played up a little. Give Taylor somewhere to be and make the detour keep her from that. Play up how long it takes to kill the thing. Give her that frustration rather than the "near death experience" one. It'd be amusing if it took her twice as long to kill it by stubbornly hacking than it would have been if she'd just attacked the weak points like she was supposed to.
 
Deus said:
Hm... Ok, but what about the Klein Field due to body nanomaterial shortage?
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Not actually that big a tradeoff, given the near-invulnerability the materials have. The biggest thing you can say is that there's a reduced capacity to redirect energy. Which can be solved by using interdimensional Klein Fields to have however much nanomaterial as you feel like generating the field. Which isn't that far-fetched.
 
Swordchucks said:
He managed to make a stable pocket dimension with a giant-ass dragon in it. That's pretty impressive in and of itself. Having that dragon be arguably on the level of an Endbringer IS a bit much. Just because he isn't restricted in the same way as other tinkers by category doesn't mean he can just break the power curve entirely. More than that, it's not necessary to what he's trying to do. He intentionally doesn't want to kill her, just delay her. Having a big dragon that's powerful and stupidly tough is more in his interests than a world-ending threat.
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It is not really on the level of an Endbringer though. It may have been as big as an Endbringer, but so is an A380, which was one of the things Taylor compared it to. It may have been tough, but once the armor defeated it went down pretty quickly.

Honestly this was a pretty good show, and feels like a classical moment for these two villains. They put in all that time and effort to set it up and grab their target, and then their chosen target tears it to pieces and leaves them unable to replicate that setup. If they had not taken the contract to go after Relentless they could have taken out most or all the members of any other gang or group in the city, or at the very least tied them up for a good long while. For U&L it was a sound tactical victory and a spectacular strategic thrashing, which seems to be how they roll anyway.

Keep in mind that most Endbringer fights involve more participants than there are capes in the entirety of Brockton Bay. And this thing got taken out in less than half an hour by one, albeit quite capable*, combatant.

*Not that I expect it would have done much better against some of the other regular participants in Endbringer battles either.

For Relentless the situation was a tactical defeat and a strategic victory. She looses tactically, in that U&L complete all of their immediate objectives and make a clean get away and she just made a very public display of a portion of her powers. However, she did not reveal much of what her full range is. While how strong she is physically, her ability to modify equipment on the fly, and how tough she and her shield are is now known, this only applies to her present form. Her full power lies in bringing a full size battlewagon to the party. What U&L have done is provide a lovely piece of propaganda for Relentless. Next time she steps up to stop a criminal operation at least a few of her opponents are going to break on the spot and either surrender or flee. In strategic terms this was a considerable victory for her.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I dunno, I'm a tad hesitant to take that approach, since it denies Saitama the one thing he desperately craves forever.

And if the fucking Endbringers aren't tough enough to take even a single punch from Saitama, then nothing ever will be.

And that's a depressing thought for the guy who just wants at least one good fight.
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Did you somehow miss the fact that denying that one thing from Saitama is the entire point of One Punch Man ? :p
 
Deathwings said:
Did you somehow miss the fact that denying that one thing from Saitama is the entire point of One Punch Man ? :p
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All six Endbringers vs. Saitama. Leviathan has his Nanothorn upgrade, Simurgh has access to all the tinker powers and can upgrade her siblings as the fight progresses. Barring tinker BS, they'll still probably get one-shot, but, with the possible exception of Bohu (or Tohu, I can't keep the two straight (the tower Endbringer)), they all should be able to dodge or redirect his attacks while still managing to land theirs. That should be interesting.
 
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Firebird Zoom said:
All six Endbringers vs. Saitama. Leviathan has his Nanothorn upgrade, Simurgh has access to all the tinker powers and can upgrade her siblings as the fight progresses. Barring tinker BS, they'll still probably get one-shot, but, with the possibkle exception of Bohu (or Tohu, I can't keep the two straight (the tower Endbringer)), they all should be able to dodge or redirect his attacks while still managing to land theirs. That should be interesting.
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Tohu is the hairy power-copier, Bohu is the tower.
 
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