[X] Plan Turn the Flank
The main concern I have here is that while you've given the Left Wing the armoured Liang 1st Levy and Ce Family Irregulars that's only 110 men. Obviously, as armoured units they're the best placed to face a cavalry charge but they're up against at least 150-170 cavalry so they're outright outnumbered and you need numbers and depth in the ranks to hold against a cavalry charge. They need at least another Infantry unit to stop them from simply being encircled or bypassed thereby exposing the crossbow unit behind them.

I'm also not hugely convinced that Zhang Liao needs Mu Shun aiding him compared to the considerably more outnumbered center.
[X] Plan Superior Range
I like this, which I guess is unsurprising as it's the plan I suggested. The only problem is you've not specified what units to put on the Left Flank to counter the cavalry charge.
[X] Plan Baiting the Enemy
This is fine, although it also doesn't take advantage of the fact we can directly specify what units to place on the Left to counter the cavalry, and also references Lu Lingqi's 'cavalry detachment' without actually assigning her one. Unless you're just referring to her Family Guard Unit which is only 15 men...
[X] Plan Firing then Charge
Maybe you've got the right of this and I'm the one who's misunderstood @Gaz but you've got a Left and Right Flank comprised of cavalry which you've said are to be commanded by Liang Shu and Lu Lingqi. But you've also said Zhang Liao is to lead the Left Flank and Gong Su & Mu Shun are to lead right flank? Do you mean to split the Infantry center in three, each section commanded by a different person?


I've also been thinking a bit more about Archer placement which is why I didn't mention it in the above feedback. Plan Turn The Flank has them behind from the start, Plan Superior Range does what I was initially suggesting and places them in front with orders to retreat when the enemy moves.

As I said, it does make sense to put them in front of the Infantry so they can be as accurate as possible and do as much damage as possible, and then pull them back behind when the enemy starts to charge. This should be safe as it's going to take the enemy at least 2 mins to cover the distance.

But I was thinking about it a bit more this morning and if we put the Archers at the front it seems likely they would be targeted by the enemy archers which - even though we outnumber them considerably - probably isn't something we want since our Archers don't have shields and most aren't armoured. Our Infantry, on the other hand, all have shields and so should take less damage from the enemy archers whereas the majority of their infantry don't have shields. So now I'm leaning towards putting the archers to the rear from the beginning.

[] Plan Smash the Right, Hold the Left
-[] [Cavalry] Place them all on your right flank. Have them chase off the enemy horsemen on that side, and expose the bandit left flank/rear to a hammer blow. Place more spearmen on your left flank to deter their cavalry.
--[] [Cavalry] Cavalry only to charge after the enemy has been forced to engage us by our ranged units.
-[] [Infantry] Hold fast and allow the enemy to come to you.
-[] [Ranged] Position them at the very back of your army, and fire over the heads of the rest of your infantry. Crossbows to be placed behind the Left Infantry. Archer Units to be placed behind the Center Infantry.
-[] [Liang Shu] Personally lead your cavalry, as you always have done before.
-[] Sub-Officer Usage
--[] Zhang Liao to command the Left Flank with Gong Su aiding him.
---[] Liang 1st Levy - 80 - Adept - Spears, Swords, Shields and Armour
---[] Ce Family Irregulars - 30 Adept - Halberds and Armour
---[] 1st Infantry Unit - 84 - Trained - Spears and Shields
--[] Zhu Fang to command the center with Mu Shun aiding him.
---[] The Boars Chargers - 75 - Regular - Axes, Armour and Shields
---[] Liang 3rd Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Liang 4th Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Liang 2nd Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Yu Family Levy - 200 - Trained - Spears and Shields
--[] Yu Zhong to command the ranged units with Cao Xing aiding him.
---[] Shangdang Sharpshooters - 100 - Regular - Bows, Swords and Armour
---[] 1st Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
---[] 2nd Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
---[] 3rd Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
--[] Lu Lingqi to aid us.

This means there would be 194 men (110 armoured) plus the 150 Crossbows to deal with the 150 to 170 cavalry on the Left Flank. With 575 Infantry and 260 archers to hold the center.

One unit I'm not sure on is the 1st Mounted Scouting Unit. We could give them to the Left Flank to harass the enemy cavalry and prevent them from being flanked themselves. We could also just lump them in with the rest of the cavalry on the Right.

Additionally, it might be worth handing over command of the Crossbow Unit to Zhang Liao on the Left and just having Yu Zhong and Cao Xing command the Archers in the center. Or even having Yu Zhong command the archers alone and putting Cao Xing under Zhang Liao?

Anyone have any thoughts before I finalise this?
 
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The crossbows have a fairly straightforward job of killing as many cavalry as they can, at least in the opening stage of the fight. I'm ok with subordinating them to Zhang Liao, I trust him to use them effectively when/if the charge against his flank is beaten.
 
The only problem is you've not specified what units to put on the Left Flank to counter the cavalry charge.
That doesn't seem necessary. The cavalry part already said that spearmen will be on our left flank and the ranged part says they will be supported by crossbows. I doubt that Gaz is going to screw us over because we weren't overly specific about which specific unit goes where.
 
Which is the least complicated plan? Since no plan survives contact with the enemy and all that plus i'm a big believer in 'keep it simple, stupid' in this kind of Quests.

Well, as far as I can tell:

The Baiting the Enemy plan has us throw a small portion of our cavalry out as bait to try to tempt the enemy's right-side cavalry into breaking ranks, but is otherwise similar to Superior Range. The Superior Range plan has our archers in front (though not our crossbowmen) until the enemy gets close and then has them retreat behind lines, while the Turn the Flank plan has the archers firing from behind our lines from the very beginning. Aside from that all three plans are pretty similar, (cavalry on right, footmen hold position until the enemy comes to us, reinforce the left flank with spears to repel the rest of their cavalry,) though the Turn the Flank plan does assign certain troops to certain sub-officers while the other two don't.

Oh, and apparently there's another plan (firing then charge) where we split our cavalry between both flanks, though that one hasn't picked up any traction so far.

They all seem pretty simple to me. No big complex plans here, thank goodness.

Edit: Oops, missed Hasty's plan. Um... it's pretty much similar to Turn the Flank in troop make up, though it micromanages exactly where each unit goes.
 
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So the biggest problem I have with the other plans is not trying to get a flank charge on the enemy cav unit. Sure we have the numbers to win a head on charge but it will take longer to break them and we will suffer more casualties.

Forcing them to fast two units of cav that are both the same size gives them no good options, while a single frontal charge would let them go deep and accept not contesting our entire charge while swinging their other cav around back to link up with the reserve and counter the ones that they let through.

If they tried the same thing when Lingqi is off a way and angled then she will just smash into the side of that formation freeing our two cav units up at the same time and quicker then otherwise.

Basically by separating and coming in at different angles we force the cav we are facing into a stretched deployment which makes them quicker to break as more men will be engaged at a time and breaking them quickly to then prepare to charge zuo, his reserve and the other cav if the bring them around or the infantry if they do not is key.
 
Two add my own two cents. On my question about the advantages of the approach Void Stalker uses Gaz made it clear that we can lower or raise the difficulty check through our choices.
The latter, but the difficulty check of each outcome does depend on what your choices are, as ever.
The battle will be won by the cavalry I think on that everyone agrees. The major difference is for some superior quality and numbers is enough, while Void Stalker wants to get a direct tactical advantage by forcing the enemy into having to suffer one flanking attack or stretch their lines so much that they will break easily. This could either make the initial difficulty check higher ,because the attack is more complex while granting a far better result, or just be the superior option overall like the hidden path, because it lowers the enemies capability to fight back and will grant better result. Personally I think it is the latter.

[X] Plan Baiting the Enemy

@Void Stalker I think any force composition needs to be added to the subcommanders or they will not count. One point for that I think you have a little too much on the left flank. The enemy cavalry will only number 160-180 while your composition leaves our centre at under 500. You have 110 armoured polearm troops with another 84 or 100 spear+shield(polearm) infantry. Just one units puts them above the numbers of the cavalry without 150 crossbowmen firing into their ranks. Zhang Liao is a monster ,who would probably beat them even outnumbered I don´t think he needs nearly double their initial numbers.
 
That doesn't seem necessary. The cavalry part already said that spearmen will be on our left flank and the ranged part says they will be supported by crossbows.
The problem there is that all our Infantry have spears, but only a couple of units have armour and it's fairly important that those are the units going up against the enemy cavalry.


I worked up this plan, but it's similar enough to @Void Stalker plan that I'm not sure it's needed.
[] Plan Smash the Right, Hold the Left
-[] [Cavalry] Place them all on your right flank. Have them chase off the enemy horsemen on that side, and expose the bandit left flank to a hammer blow. Place more spearmen on your left flank to deter their cavalry.
--[] [Cavalry] Cavalry only to charge after the enemy has been forced to engage us by our ranged units.
--[] [Cavalry] Lu Lingqi to position for a flanking charge after the enemy cavalry is engaged with Shu to break them more quickly.
-[] [Infantry] Hold fast and allow the enemy to come to you.
-[] [Ranged] Position them at the very back of your army, and fire over the heads of the rest of your infantry. Crossbows to be placed behind the Left Infantry. Archer Units to be placed behind the Center Infantry.
-[] [Liang Shu] Personally lead your cavalry, as you always have done before.
--[] 1st Liang Clan Mounted Veterans - 55 - Veteran - Swords(T2), Spears, Armour and Steeds
--[] 2nd Liang Clan Mounted Veterans - 60 - Veteran - Swords(T2), Spears, Armour and Steeds
--[] 1st Mounted Volunteers - 63 - Adept - Swords, Spears, Armour and Steeds
--[] 2nd Mounted Volunteers - 62 - Adept - Swords, Spears, Armour and Steeds
-[] Sub-Officer Usage
--[] Zhang Liao to command the Left Flank with Gong Su aiding him.
---[] Liang 1st Levy - 80 - Adept - Spears, Swords, Shields and Armour
---[] Ce Family Irregulars - 30 Adept - Halberds and Armour
---[] 1st Infantry Unit - 84 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] 1st Crossbow Unit - 150 - Trained - Crossbows, Spears (95) and Bludgeons (55)
---[] 1st Mounted Scouting Unit - 10 - Trained - Bows, Swords and Steeds
--[] Zhu Fang to command the center with Mu Shun aiding him.
---[] The Boars Chargers - 75 - Regular - Axes, Armour and Shields
---[] Liang 3rd Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Liang 4th Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Liang 2nd Levy - 100 - Trained - Spears and Shields
---[] Yu Family Levy - 200 - Trained - Spears and Shields
--[] Yu Zhong to command the Archer units with Cao Xing aiding him.
---[] Shangdang Sharpshooters - 100 - Regular - Bows, Swords and Armour
---[] 1st Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
---[] 2nd Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
---[] 3rd Archer Unit - 50 - Adept - Bows and Bludgeons
--[] Lu Lingqi to aid us.
---[] Lady Ce Xiang's Bodyguards - 20 - Skilled - Swords, Spears, Shields, Armour and Steeds
---[] Lu Family Guard - 15 - Skilled - Swords, Halberds, Armour and Steeds
---[] Liang Mounted Companions - 60 - Adept - Swords, Spears, Armour and Steeds

I will say though that you probably do need to include your unit assignments as part of the plan like @Erzherzog_Karl said.

A couple of other small things; I really think the archers should be behind the infantry from the start, if we put the Archers at the front they will be targeted by the enemy archers which - even though we outnumber them considerably - isn't something we want since our Archers don't have shields and most aren't armoured. Our Infantry, on the other hand, all have shields and so should take considerably less damage from the enemy archers, whereas the majority of their infantry don't have shields.

The second thing is I think you have too many Infantry on the left and the Liang 2nd Levy should be moved to the center. You're got 294 Infantry and 150 Crossbowmen up against 150-180 Cavalry and only 475 Infantry - and 250 archers - in the center up against (probably) more than 2,000 enemy troops.

The last thing is I'm wondering if maybe you should change the distribution of troops between Liang Shu and Lu Lingqi. Give Shu the majority of the cavalry (and all the veterans) and use those for the direct countercharge while Lingqi hits their flanks with a smaller (comparatively) force?
 
I think there's a big failing with Plan Baiting the Enemy. We only have 10 mounted scouts and this is their first time fighting on horseback. They aren't going to be very effective horse archers because effective horse archers need numbers to constantly cycle in and out and training to fire accurately and timely.
The QM already said that our troops will perform just as well for their level of experience no matter what we equip them with.
 
Maybe you've got the right of this and I'm the one who's misunderstood @Gaz but you've got a Left and Right Flank comprised of cavalry which you've said are to be commanded by Liang Shu and Lu Lingqi. But you've also said Zhang Liao is to lead the Left Flank and Gong Su & Mu Shun are to lead right flank? Do you mean to split the Infantry center in three, each section commanded by a different person?

The hawk and hound are both leading the horsemen to counter enemy horsemen, which takes them away from leading the infantry.
 
The even split on cav is because this way we are in a good situation whichever force the bandit cav turns towards as there is no guarantee they will charge Shu. Instead they may charge Lingqi. With both forces being equal to the enemy then the charging unit can hold them for the other to flank charge. I will add the units to the sub commanders vote once I have more free time.

As for the amount on our left, those hot fighting cav will be fighting enemy infantry they are not going to be unengaged short of the enemy doing something stupid st which point the unengaged portion of our left charges the engaged enemy
 
Whatever the plan, you can assume that any unit not under your direct control will be both active and reactive as the battle goes by. For this kind of skirmish you don't have to worry about micromanaging or giving too detailed orders to your officers. Your retainers and unit leaders will act and lead based on their own abilities and personalities and react themselves to the changing battle.
 
As for the amount on our left, those hot fighting cav will be fighting enemy infantry they are not going to be unengaged short of the enemy doing something stupid st which point the unengaged portion of our left charges the engaged enemy
The problem I think HastyGaming and myself have with the deployment is that our centre will already be facing a big numerical disadvantage while on the left we will solely be facing cavalry, which will be outnumbered by your stated troops nearly two to one (160-175 vs 294 inf +150 crossbowmen). I do not doubt that Zhang Liao will shift unused units around so that they will matter but is it not better to reinforce our centre from the beginning instead of having it done midbattle. Our centre has to hold and frankly Zhang Liao is a monster who is more than able to even overturn odds stacked against him so I doubt he will need that big an advantage over the cavalry.
 
The problem I think HastyGaming and myself have with the deployment is that our centre will already be facing a big numerical disadvantage while on the left we will solely be facing cavalry, which will be outnumbered by your stated troops nearly two to one (160-175 vs 294 inf +150 crossbowmen). I do not doubt that Zhang Liao will shift unused units around so that they will matter but is it not better to reinforce our centre from the beginning instead of having it done midbattle.
Yes, basically this. While I'm sure Zhang Liao will move his forces to assist the center after he defeats the cavalry on the Left Flank, it still means we start the battle badly unbalanced and with an overly weakened center despite them already being massively outnumbered.

Their job might only be to hold out until the wings win their battles but there's no reason for us to make their jobs more difficult than they need to be.

Left Wing - 444 vs 150-180
Center - 725 vs 2000+
 
I expect the enemy infantry to hit the right half of our left front as well as the center when I assigned units as I would expect our center and left to be a solid line, maybe with a refused flank and for the enemy cav to focus on hitting the leftmost section of our flank.
 
When we get back home we need to have a private talk with our friend and apologize. Something like this.

...

Bow and apologize for wronging him. We are just a man with little talent and in our inexperience we made a mistake. Not a fatal one but a mistake none the less.

We had been so worried about the potential of bandits attacking at home that we never thought about the odds of that actually becoming a reality. By the time we had realized what had been done it was too late to turn back.

We can say that it was because you were here that we can March forward with no worries but that doesn't change the dishonor I caused to you and to myself.

We noticed that you wished to speak when I announced my plan yet stayed silent. You are as close to me as a brother, family, if you cannot give me counselor then who here cam dare to do so?

I humblely beg for your forgiveness. Should you see me err then please speak. I'm not under any delusion that I cannot do wrong and shall listen to your counsel as I do all my retainers.

...

If possible the one who made the plan should write an omake as atonement. lol.
 
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I expect the enemy infantry to hit the right half of our left front as well as the center when I assigned units as I would expect our center and left to be a solid line, maybe with a refused flank and for the enemy cav to focus on hitting the leftmost section of our flank.
Due to the way the battle has been set up, and the mechanical nature of a quest (and especially rolls) I don't think will play out like that. More likely each flank will be rolling against its opposite and your deployment leaves the center undermanned and at risk.
When we get back home we need to have a private talk with our friend and apologize. Something like this.
Except that's not at all what happened, and isn't even the reason we left him behind. This wasn't a mistake we made, we knew he was going to be upset but did it anyway because the decisions we make aren't just based on what our Retainers want. He wanted to be part of the campaign immediately, we needed him to be at the Estate for the first month of spring before he joined us and ultimately we're the Lord and sometimes we need our retainers to do things they'd rather not to achieve a larger objective.

We can apologise for the necessity of it, say we're sorry he had to miss the first month of the campaign. But we shouldn't be apologising for doing it, because it was done for an important reason.

@Gaz how long are you planning to leave the vote open?
 
Except that's not at all what happened, and isn't even the reason we left him behind. This wasn't a mistake we made, we knew he was going to be upset but did it anyway because the decisions we make aren't just based on what our Retainers want. He wanted to be part of the campaign immediately, we needed him to be at the Estate for the first month of spring before he joined us and ultimately we're the Lord and sometimes we need our retainers to do things they'd rather not to achieve a larger objective.

We can apologise for the necessity of it, say we're sorry he had to miss the first month of the campaign. But we shouldn't be apologising for doing it, because it was done for an important reason.
@HastyGaming Is it not rather OOC to believe that the campaign is going to last more than a month, since IC they likely believe this battle is going to be final battle against the bandits in the county, because they do not know Chu Yan is going to show up?
 
@HastyGaming Is it not rather OOC to believe that the campaign is going to last more than a month, since IC they likely believe this battle is going to be final battle against the bandits in the county, because they do not know Chu Yan is going to show up?
No, not really. Though it would be if I was referring only to this bandit, and given how I worded it I'm not surprised that's what you thought. That's my mistake.

The 'campaign' against this bandit force might not last more than a month, or even a battle, but the entire country is at war. When we finish up with Zuo Zizhangba we're not done - even ignoring Chu Yan who we don't know of yet - we're going to be going after the Yellow Turbans, or heading north to fight the barbarians under Lu Bu and Bing Yuan. This is nothing more than an opening skirmish in the grand scheme of things. When I say campaign I mean the ongoing military campaign against various forces that has a good chance of lasting this entire year.
 
No, not really. Though it would be if I was referring only to this bandit, and given how I worded it I'm not surprised that's what you thought. That's my mistake.

The 'campaign' against this bandit force might not last more than a month, or even a battle, but the entire country is at war. When we finish up with Zuo Zizhangba we're not done - even ignoring Chu Yan who we don't know of yet - we're going to be going after the Yellow Turbans, or heading north to fight the barbarians under Lu Bu and Bing Yuan. This is nothing more than an opening skirmish in the grand scheme of things. When I say campaign I mean the ongoing military campaign against various forces that has a good chance of lasting this entire year.
We are most likely going to against either the Yellow Turbans or other bandits or barbarians, so I guess one might call it one long campaign, though personally I would consider it different campaigns.
 
I hope anons vote to be independent in the future, we've already had two quests as officers, the time of the Ruler has come. The only one who I will accept serving is Papa Dong, though.
 
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