Time of the Gods: Into the Amber Age

The point being that a wonder-type shrine extension built in Saiga's village is not ideal at present, since that basically moves the center of our worship to his place.

The Holy Place does not NEED a cap, but it has the Moon Sphere, which can count towards the quality of a shrine built there.
That's, not something either plan is doing?? That would require building a shrine on top of Teeth of the Sea. The people are nor sufficiently advanced enough to make the attemp. I do have shrine extensions in my plan though.
@Powerofmind
IS there any difficulty putting the shrine there at the Holy Place? I got the impression theres enough high rocky ground there to plug the Moon Sphere into, so there's enough to put a shrine below that.

I think I could chip together 10 DE for that purpose if I wanted.
 
Now that I'm caught up, how did you guys (and anyone else saying similar things, I'm sure I didn't catch everything) not realise that the Saiga interlude took place in the past? You're all usually fairly with it.

Huh? I qualify for that grouping?! Im honestly flattered but still... o_O

Personally I had a bit of doublethink. I realized it was probably in the past and that gaerig was a blindspot but that didn't connect to my actual conclusion(that we made him unable to notice via trickery).

Blindspots are actually kind of a blind spot for me.
 
Wow. That is totally anemic. A net of 2 on the sacrifices and -3 on the growth.

We might need to look into some better way of churning DE.
We got an average of 1.65 and 1.29 successes on our rolls (2.05 and 1.65 if we get skill mods), it was pretty bad. Average rolls would give us more than 2.5 average. We got 1.5x returns on our 2.5 average rolls last turn (3 avg successes if we get skill mods), so on average it should be a good DE churn.
Also, presumably growth blessings have a lower return anyway, since they theoretically boost pop mod
That's how fear works. I sort of said this before... On the up-side, items you've previously despised crowd out possible new gains and are significantly less expensive, so you can really only cycle two or three components on the table before you have to eventually roll a shrine.
Hmm...is there any way to like, super-despise a trait? Like, get rid of it without it being more likely to pick up again?
This is the penalty for the Yahweh Lite. You want all the traits? Have fun spending all the DE trying to use half of them.
Is that a challenge? :V :p
Yes. I should have auto-X'd but I spaced that particular detail.
So we have to do that demand, and we're basically already using 15 DE for our budgets?

Some key questions from the update, so they're not hidden in the annotated update:

Blessings:
-Do we get a skill mod on these?
-Did we not get any pop mod progress from the growth blessings? the fluff suggests that the fertility boost cancelled it out, but i'd also believe either that we rolled too poorly or that you forgot with all the things you had to keep track of.
-If sacrifices give ~1.5x return on average, then how much DE return would growth blessings do, since they also boost pop?

For income:
1. you miscalculated the vehemence income, i think. 13*5.6 = 72.8, not 70.
2. We had 2 omakes since last turn, iirc--the poem you linked in the amberpedia, and the Saiga omake by... @Swimmingly i think? that i linked you last night
3. If Participation Bonus still can go over our DE limit, then you handled that wrong too; with the income you listed, we should have had 128 - 5 (holy place) = 123 DE, with a cap of 120 and PB of 4, which shouldn't have condensed.

For upgrades:
What tier is Seas? It cost about as much as a T1 at the start, but unlocked a T3 and is seemingly a T2 trait after water...but we're getting +3 cost to T1 and +1 cost to T2 upgrades, between Moon/Water/Seas/Waves.

Edit: Remembered a question: how did our Calm seas affect the turn? I assume it increased vehemence, since that also covers "doing great things to help", but did that vehemence contribute to the pop mod decrease? Because i'm pretty sure we did that hoping to help our people, so if it backfired thats important to know

Edit 2: Realized i forgot one of hte main questions i wrote this for. For the shrine extensions, you said we unlock 3 extensions and can get highertier extensions every even level of Fear, right? Shouldn't we have 6 unlocked then, since we have Fear 4?
 
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@Powerofmind what does "Formless" mean,
Have we just lost avatar entirely?
We are completely unable to form an avatar until our traits < trait cap.

-Did we not get any pop mod progress from the growth blessings? the fluff suggests that the fertility boost cancelled it out, but i'd also believe either that we rolled too poorly or that you forgot with all the things you had to keep track of.
Pretty sure we just rolled poorly. Fear Spirits have a lot of difficulty with Growth Progress, particularly when you're doing it by boosting food gain. Our best bet is triggering another orgy really.
 
We are completely unable to form an avatar until our traits < trait cap.


Pretty sure we just rolled poorly. Fear Spirits have a lot of difficulty with Growth Progress, particularly when you're doing it by boosting food gain. Our best bet is triggering another orgy really.
We only got +1 net from that, though
 
So if I am tracking what Veekie has been saying correctly, to get second magic we need some sort of art, some sort of perform, omen reading, mysticism, and THEN second magic? If I am understanding that correctly it honestly isn't something I think we should actually be going out of our way to work towards. Picking up that many skills would make us incredibly mono-focused, even if we increase our avatar level somewhat we will still have to drop most non-magic oriented skills.

There is a serious opportunity cost to going for this, and I for one am not sure it is actually worth it. Not yet at least. As it is we can do the offensive side of magic with traits and we are doing pretty well at building up our attributes without rituals at all. Our attributes are skyrocketing, admittedly with some setbacks, but how many rituals do people really think we are going to do for attributes? There is no real need to fall into the Harzivan trap of trying to max (and then break the cap) on all the attributes. We can just try to ascend instead.
Agree!

Also, IIRC, Second Magic really isn't meant for Spirits, but for Gods, but Spirits could unlock it anyway with prohibitive costs.
 
Agree!

Also, IIRC, Second Magic really isn't meant for Spirits, but for Gods, but Spirits could unlock it anyway with prohibitive costs.
Not really? Both times it was accidental. All you need to do is to invent mirrors to be able to start experimenting with it. Control requires an understanding of colors after all, and THAT is a natural discovery for any Sun or Moon spirits(you can hardly avoid it).

EDIT: Put in shrine construction, swapping out 5 Blessings and an Inspiration. The Shrine should add more DE as well and put our Influence at cap so it has a better chance to improve.
 
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Not really? Both times it was accidental. All you need to do is to invent mirrors to be able to start experimenting with it. Control requires an understanding of colors after all, and THAT is a natural discovery for any Sun or Moon spirits(you can hardly avoid it).
In the sense of using Second Magic consistently.

I mean we could well get the traits and skills for it, it's just that we need so many it's.. painful, at least at this tier.

In any event, I have to say that the Formless boosts are actually quite neat; High DE and Ambroisa cap, Near-Immunity to Awe Domination. They'd actually work out pretty well for a Pure Elemental Spirit, Fear, most likely. Provided you can find someplace to keep nuking, you're pretty much unstoppable. Also decent for growth Faith spirits, who can.. grow their pop even faster than they normally can with growth blessings.

The penalties, of course, wreck any character using Avatar crushingly, as well as Social-Fu, Crafting-Fu and Combat-Fu characters.
 
Alright, which plan has us despising waves.

We need human to create intelligent and/or humanoid monsters.
 
In the sense of using Second Magic consistently.

I mean we could well get the traits and skills for it, it's just that we need so many it's.. painful, at least at this tier.
Maybe. You don't need that many traits however, and it's become apparent that the skill cap is a lot less tight than it seems:
-A trait for mirror source.
--A transmutation metal affinity(Golden Sun->Gold, Silver Moon->Silver, possibly Copper, Glass and Gems are all options, and since they are elemental affinities you can drop the predecessor traits after getting there) is the option for landbound spirits.
--And for us, we started with a perfect observatory to directly tap it, so we don't need to care.

-A means to control the color of the light
--Sun traits give colored light access
--Moon traits give colored light access
--Water traits give colored light access(whether Rain->Rainbow or waterfalls)
--Fire traits give colored light access
--Pigments CAN give colored light access(Ochre or Ash for instance)
--Gems and metals can give colored light access

-Mysticism to know what the hell you're doing in broad terms. Amongst these are Attribute raising rituals at least, since we stepped into one.

Overall? We started halfway there already, and all the parts ARE valuable to us on their own too.
Alright, which plan has us despising waves.

We need human to create intelligent and/or humanoid monsters.
Originally just mine.

Now both plans do it.
 
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--[X] At your Holy Place
---[X] If not possible, rebuild the shrine in Apostate Village

Veekie I have to Protest this, I do not agree with build a shrine in our holy place, since that defeats the idea of a holy place

And I also feel that this is a significant change of your plan and one that I think that Not everyone would agree to

So for the sake of Fairness I would like for you to put off said action until next turn or Adress all of your voters first and Inform them of your changes since I doubt many will revisit the plans or even just the thread until the next update rolls around
 
I seem to recall a discussion from before about building a Shrine ar out holy place. It boiled down to the GM saying: Yes, it can be done, but your neolithic people who mostly use skins and wood as a building material would be very hard pressed to raise anything long-term on a bunch of rocks which are frequently underwater. Or do I remember incorrectly?
 
I seem to recall a discussion from before about building a Shrine ar out holy place. It boiled down to the GM saying: Yes, it can be done, but your neolithic people who mostly use skins and wood as a building material would be very hard pressed to raise anything long-term on a bunch of rocks which are frequently underwater. Or do I remember incorrectly?
Veekie I have to Protest this, I do not agree with build a shrine in our holy place, since that defeats the idea of a holy place
But uh, it doesn't. The Holy Place doesn't NEED a shrine. But a shrine at the Holy Place has a massive quality modifier from the giant silver orb artifact mounted there, enough to count at a much higher quality tier and thus allow better shrine extensions.

Hell, the main discussion before the update was how to put a shrine at Saiga's place AND the Holy Place without using the Apostate village as a transition point(like the discussion specifically involved building a shrine there, building a shrine at Saiga's demolishing the shrine at the Apostate village and building one at the Holy Place). Which Saiga, good man, solved for us by paying the Ambrosia cost to skip the hop.

Anyway, theres a good 14+ hours to vote close, so plenty of time to raise issues. I'll remove it if there is significant protest by the time I wake up. Which would be intensely odd, considering most people were in favor of it last check.
For now I'll go to bed.
 
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I have to agree with sidetory on this. But since making a permanent shrine there would unfeasible for the locals, or maybe only extremely hard, I don't think making a shrine there should be considered an actual option.

Ah, and, btw, i forgot to vote for your plan. Let me amend that.

[X] Plan Towards getting a body again
 
alright.

Can you link me to it, so that I can see the rest of it?

also about that "Painted Stars" expansion.... I'm really tempted to get it.

also new divine symbol for Gaerig.

Mine does that too!
Moratorium Lifted

[X] Plan Yahweh Lite
-[X] Bless Petitioner for Sacrifices - Expend some of your DE to empower those who come to your shrine or pray to you in exahange for more offerings. Current Skills that can be blessed: Astrology, Navigation, Perform (Trickery), Fishing, Leadership, Innovation.
--[X] Expend 10 DE on petitioners for Perform(Trickery)
--[X] Expend 20 DE on petitioners for Innovation
--[X] Expend 10 DE on petitioners for Astrology
-[X] Bless Petitioner for Growth - Expend some of your DE to empower those who come to your shrine or pray to you, granting them a bounty of life-giving things. Current Skills that can be blessed: Navigation, Fishing.
--[X] Expend 21 DE on petitioners for Navigation
-[X] Control Waters*** - You bend the waves to your command, directing them to rise or quiet at your leisure, to punish your enemies, or reward your friends. Costs: 4 DE
--[X] Calm Seas.
---[X] x3
-[X] Improve a Shrine - Invest a great deal of materials and ornaments to make a shrine grander. Costs: 10 DE.
--[X] Expand the Painted Stars (T1): A map of stars will be painted upon the skins inside a single shrine, granting ???.
-[X] Moonlight* - The moon shines bright this night, revealing things that hide in the dark. Can cause Weird, also empowers a number of relevant actions (Astrology, Perform (Trickery), Water-element Influence Actions, etc.). Costs: 15 DE
--[X] In your territory.
[X] Despise Trait - You do not like how the mortals view you and your powers. Remind them what you truly represent and how you truly are! Costs: (Must reserve no destructive acts associated with the forgotten trait)
-[X] Despise Ocean Affinity - Waves
-[X] Issue Decree - You condense into a roiling mass just barely capable of overwhelming, booming speech in order to address those beneath you and issue a decree about the right way to live and how to worship you correctly. Costs: 15 DE. Maximum Decrees: 0/4
--[X] LOCKED: Decree that families who send one of their beautiful members to attend your shrines for a time will be spared your wrath. Costs: 15 DE
Perform(sing) would be one aspect of Whales away and with (hopefully) Shrine 3 get to keep both Octopus and Whale to make monsters with~
 
[X] Plan Yahweh Lite.

but I'm pretty sure being formless means people cant attend us.
 
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(Also, no pop mod gain. Not sure if we just rolled too low or what...)
It was below my success threshold for +2.
(What, no weirding roll on this? :p)
You can't weird a roll that's meant to determine how powerful a weird is (though it did make it especially silly).
(Blue moon is secrets)
Are you sure about that? vvv
moon to rise is strangely purple


(...Wait. 13 * 5.6 = 72.8, we should have 2 more DE (actually 3 if it rounds like in the past))
I could have swore... Nevermind, I guess I can fix that?
(So no bonus from growth blessings...unless that is the natural growth, which seems unlikely.)
You got a really poor set of bless checks (combined with natural Fear weakness in growth blessings) after a series of major exhaustions (all Vehemence damages Pop Mod by exhausting the people mentally/spiritually, violent vehemence just gives you more at once, so it damages it faster).
(i think PoM said that this means we have to take this this turn; presumably Gaerig is compelled to do so since we've done so a lot. So 15 DE less to our budget)
No, you have to take it because it's part of your deal with Saiga. Hasn't even been two days and you guys have already forgotten that condition.
(...Wait. We should have 6 available, if we unlock 3 every even focus level. We have Fear 4...)
You unlock a choice of 3 every focus level, and you only get to unlock the next tier when you have built the one before.
(Wait...isn't Seas T2?)
Yes. You got waves and seas backwards. Waves is a T1.
IS there any difficulty putting the shrine there at the Holy Place? I got the impression theres enough high rocky ground there to plug the Moon Sphere into, so there's enough to put a shrine below that.
It is especially difficult. Even with your intervention, you don't have so much control over the waters of your holy place that you can perpetually prevent them from riling up or splashing around, and the locals are still using skins, ice, and untreated, unpainted wood for their large-scale construction efforts, none of which last very long when exposed to both air and tidal seawater. The moonsphere gets a fair amount of time in-water, actually, due to the tides, it's just protected due to it's metaphysical weight.
Hmm...is there any way to like, super-despise a trait? Like, get rid of it without it being more likely to pick up again?
Despising a trait repeatedly or deliberately not performing it's attached action types when it comes up for rebuy can reduce and eventually drop it from the pool, and despising traits when under-capped doesn't recycle them as heavily.
-Do we get a skill mod on these?
-Did we not get any pop mod progress from the growth blessings? the fluff suggests that the fertility boost cancelled it out, but i'd also believe either that we rolled too poorly or that you forgot with all the things you had to keep track of.
-If sacrifices give ~1.5x return on average, then how much DE return would growth blessings do, since they also boost pop?
Yes, you get a partial skill mod on these two types of blessings (half). There are means to make blessings less bad.
1. you miscalculated the vehemence income, i think. 13*5.6 = 72.8, not 70.
Yes, I'm working on that.
how did our Calm seas affect the turn? I assume it increased vehemence, since that also covers "doing great things to help", but did that vehemence contribute to the pop mod decrease?
It did. All vehemence contributes to pop mod penalty, but turns with non-violent acts contribute less than half as much towards it.
For the shrine extensions, you said we unlock 3 extensions and can get highertier extensions every even level of Fear, right? Shouldn't we have 6 unlocked then, since we have Fear 4?
See above.

I probably missed something, I have to go fix DE now.
 
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