Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Karthak Urzak]

What if Shang Tsung had ascended instead of becoming a corpse immortal:

Hm, interesting question
well assuming the rest goes the same he was still dipping into some fairly unpleasant warmaking devices by the end, but it probably wouldn't have gone the same way. As a great spirit he would probably enhance production methods a lot and lock in his special power cores he used for his devices as 'general tech'
sooooo his kid was still kind of a shithead though and even with his dad ascending and granting legitimacy he probably wouldn;t have held things together so things probably go on awhile longer but eventually come to grudging stalemate.Empire stays split in the immediate, but the tech base is now much more favorable to more industrial production so who knows how it goes from there.

Click to shrink...

His rival for the throne:

He was a competant administrator but mainly interested in more hm.... court focused polciy, big fan of delegating powers and focusing on managing his vassals with social-fu and mostly ignoring the lower rungs outside of disasters because lol who cares

Click to shrink...

Considering that most of the Celestial Peaks nobility sided with Shang Tsung that really bit him on the ass, then.

Click to shrink...

He was always more interested in his IMPORTANT vassals yes

Click to shrink...

Why the Lu sided against Shang Tsung:

Well a large part was fuck the Zheng, but also fuck centralization, and the attack on their economy and political power that would be making the Celestial Peaks self sufficient on agricultural products and basic reagents

Click to shrink...

Why the Strife went the way it did:

Bai were in those days supreme at war
Just throwing back their punitive expedition after they came to enthrone his brother turned heads all around the empire and made his soon to be allies actually willing to take a chance on hm
it is possible he could have outright won before things got to where they did but it would have required several good turns of luck

Click to shrink...

Why the Xuan sided against Shang Tsung:

It was mainly to get a chance to bite at the Jing, and because they were not particularly in favor of strong government reform minded emperors

Click to shrink...

Why the Zheng sided with him:

Well if you ask them, because in the beginning Shang was clearly the superior emperor, he had created many great works and great plenty. He was sharp as a knife, brave and honorable.
war tends to strip those things away though.

Click to shrink...

If the other guy really was a Bai puppet or if that was just propaganda:

The answer to that is lost to time. However it is undeniable that Shang Tsung had the backing of the the majority of the Celestial Peaks nobility.

Click to shrink...

What if Shenhua had happened at the beginning of the Strife:

It would depend on where in his timeline he is. He'd be quiet enthused and intrigued at the beginning. If you transplanted current emerald seas to the beginning of the strife, he and she would certainly end up as allies against the Bai and Xuan and GF of those days

Click to shrink...

If you're allowed to argue these days that Shang Tsung was the rightful emperor:

It is now something that can at least be discussed these days in debates between historians
unless there's a bai nearby don't do that
but it was definitely death worthy throughout the second dynasty
its a pretty marginal and unpopular opinion and you won't see it outside of like hardcore academics
like maybe Meng Dan will have witnessed a scholarly slapfight like that in the blue mountain library but nowhere else in the es

Click to shrink...

Putting all of these together I'm inclined to argue that it'd been better for the Empire if Shang Tsung had won decisively early on. He would have strengthened the Empire as an institution and probably ushered in an industrial revolution of sorts if he'd ascended.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Do we actually know the separated limb LQ transported to liminal is anything more than a dead limb . what gave you the idea it will be a threat going forward or the parasite have any control over it

Click to shrink...

I think the parasite is a threat with or without it scavenging the limb we threw into the liminal. We just understand too little about it.

But I also think it definitely elevates the risk and gives it more potential wiggle room that we did throw it there. The limb was described as "dead flesh" when it was moving around, before we separated it, and it was already being controlled then. Why would it be unusable now that it's closer to the parasite?

Ling Qi and Sixiang didn't even do a huge amount of damage to the limb; they disrupted the parasite's control momentarily and flung the limb into the liminal while it was stunned. The parasite can't bring it back into our fight in the physical world, not in a relevant timeframe anyway, but that doesn't mean it can't scavenge or otherwise use it inside of the liminal. Of course it can. Sixiang, liminal expert, even outright suggested the material would be in the parasite's grasp and usable by it if we tossed it into the liminal. Ling Qi countered with saying the parasite can't move matter back and forth, but that's very much not the same thing as the material being lost to or unusable by the parasite.

Context matters. The immediate fight isn't the same context as a survival scenario. The limb isn't relevant to the first, but it is relevant to the second.

 

[trebobr]

The main argument seems to he whether or not Piper will be able to deal with the Parasite by itself after we seal the underworld.
The following is an assumption, but I think it's fairly safe to say that the parasite is stronger right now because it has access to the underworld.
Therefore, if we seal the underworld, the parasite should get weaker.

Whether it will become weak enough for us/piper to find and defeat it up to argument.

On the other hand, we know that the parasite is stronger against its target. It was implied in the previous chapter that if we had not stood our ground and defended with everyone, then the parasite would have the purification of piper we did beforehand.

This is evidence that leaving piper to fight the parasite 1v1 will be disadvantageous for piper.
In both the best and worst case, I believe that piper would be damaged in this 1v1.



There's also the argument against the hunt that we do not have the guarantee that we can catch the parasite.
I believe in any realistic scenario this will either let us damage the parasite directly, or force it to expend resources to evade us.

In either case, this makes the parasite vs piper 1v1 more advantageous for piper.

The case where the parasite rests leisurely while we go on a wild goose chase sounds too unlikely to consider.


Therefore, we know that in a 1v1 piper is more likely to lose to the parasite, and we can safely assume that going for the hunt with, at worst, make this 1v1 more favourable to piper.

If the parasite actually retreats before the seal is in place, or if we stay to kill it after the seal, then this is a non-choice.
(The choice is on how much damage the parasite can do before it can die, but with us already freeing piper, that damage should be minimal)

This makes the choice obvious.
We should give Li Suyin more love letting her install the array and invoke Five Great Spirits to defend this place.

"Oh yes, though I can't take credit for those. My own work is only a small part of the Five Temple Impurity Seal Elder Jiao designed."

Click to shrink...

"Bountiful Earth, Celestial Dragon, the Heavenly Pillar, the Dusk sun, the Hidden Moon," Su Ling rattled off. "Five great spirits invoked, and woven into defense.."

Click to shrink...

Suyin will also know how important it is to deal with any parasite that is still on our side, so, even if left alive, we will be prepared to deal with even the worst case scenario.

Much more likely, with the omega array in place, we will be able to deal with any enemies on our side with ease.


But more important than anything above, we would let Suyin show of her specialties and let her be the one to deal with the parasite.

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[adaer]

I think the parasite is a threat with or without it scavenging the limb we threw into the liminal. We just understand too little about it.

But I also think it definitely elevates the risk and gives it more potential wiggle room that we did throw it there. The limb was described as "dead flesh" when it was moving around, before we separated it, and it was already being controlled then. Why would it be unusable now that it's closer to the parasite?

Ling Qi and Sixiang didn't even do a huge amount of damage to the limb; they disrupted the parasite's control momentarily and flung the limb into the liminal while it was stunned. The parasite can't bring it back into our fight in the physical world, not in a relevant timeframe anyway, but that doesn't mean it can't scavenge or otherwise use it inside of the liminal. Of course it can. Sixiang, liminal expert, even outright suggested the material would be in the parasite's grasp and usable by it if we tossed it into the liminal. Ling Qi countered with saying the parasite can't move matter back and forth, but that's very much not the same thing as the material being lost to or unusable by the parasite.

Context matters. The immediate fight isn't the same context as a survival scenario. The limb isn't relevant to the first, but it is relevant to the second.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, I think you're reading too far between the lines here while ignoring the lines themselves. Your interpretation is reasonable enough, but it's only supported by assuming that several things that were directly stated by characters in the chapter are wrong.

You've found ways that it's plausible for them to have made mistakes, but the jump from could to is in your training is largely unsupported outside just gesturing at the fact that you think it's possible. And even then you're assuming that these potential mistakes would be so impactful that the risk of them should dictate what we choose right now

 

[Imugi]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[promethus]

Context matters. The immediate fight isn't the same context as a survival scenario. The limb isn't relevant to the first, but it is relevant to the second.

Click to shrink...

the limb is relevant in the second under a very specific reading of the in-text narrative that you proposed. It has a possibility of being true but it is not the only possible reading.

 

[AbeoLogos]

I'm not highlighting mistakes. I'm comparing the consequences of different assumptions the characters could make.

The main argument seems to he whether or not Piper will be able to deal with the Parasite by itself after we seal the underworld.
The following is an assumption, but I think it's fairly safe to say that the parasite is stronger right now because it has access to the underworld.
Therefore, if we seal the underworld, the parasite should get weaker.

Whether it will become weak enough for us/piper to find and defeat it up to argument.

On the other hand, we know that the parasite is stronger against its target. It was implied in the previous chapter that if we had not stood our ground and defended with everyone, then the parasite would have the purification of piper we did beforehand.

This is evidence that leaving piper to fight the parasite 1v1 will be disadvantageous for piper.
In both the best and worst case, I believe that piper would be damaged in this 1v1.



There's also the argument against the hunt that we do not have the guarantee that we can catch the parasite.
I believe in any realistic scenario this will either let us damage the parasite directly, or force it to expend resources to evade us.

In either case, this makes the parasite vs piper 1v1 more advantageous for piper.

The case where the parasite rests leisurely while we go on a wild goose chase sounds too unlikely to consider.


Therefore, we know that in a 1v1 piper is more likely to lose to the parasite, and we can safely assume that going for the hunt with, at worst, make this 1v1 more favourable to piper.

If the parasite actually retreats before the seal is in place, or if we stay to kill it after the seal, then this is a non-choice.
(The choice is on how much damage the parasite can do before it can die, but with us already freeing piper, that damage should be minimal)

This makes the choice obvious.
We should give Li Suyin more love letting her install the array and invoke Five Great Spirits to defend this place.





Suyin will also know how important it is to deal with any parasite that is still on our side, so, even if left alive, we will be prepared to deal with even the worst case scenario.

Much more likely, with the omega array in place, we will be able to deal with any enemies on our side with ease.


But more important than anything above, we would let Suyin show of her specialties and let her be the one to deal with the parasite.

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

Click to shrink...

Respectfully, this is a misreading of the options.

[ ] Hunt the parasite down, you have wounded it awfully, best to finish it and then go for the seal.
[ ] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

Both options explicitly do the sealing. There isn't a "yes seal" and a "no seal" option. We don't have an option to not seal the breach; the reason we're here is to seal the breach. The breach will be sealed.

Second point, there is no additional plan to "deal with the parasite" in the second vote option, where we perform the sealing first. The choice declares that the parasite is not a threat, full stop. And if you look at what Li Suyin says about it, it's not that it'll be easier to catch or dispose of, it's that the Piper will be (probably) be able to keep itself clear of further corruption with the breach closed, even with the parasite roaming around.

But we don't know that for a fact. It's supposition. From a medical and impurity expert, yes, but one who understands both the Piper and this specific parasite less well than Ling Qi does, who barely understands either. The seal is not a guarantee at neutralizing the parasite. And the second option holds 0 hint at any intention to go track the parasite down after the sealing, because it's based on the premise that the sealing will neuter the parasite. This creates a pretty unfortunate end case if that guess is mistaken. Under option 2, we're not doing any followup on the parasite, we're assuming it's dealt with.

Fortunately, we do have a way around this. It's choosing to make sure the brain behind this infection is actually dead, by deliberately hunting it down.

the limb is relevant in the second under a very specific reading of the in-text narrative that you proposed. It has a possibility of being true but it is not the only possible reading.

Click to shrink...

Relevant in the sense that the parasite can access and can manipulate it where it is in the liminal. This is simply observably true, supported by in-character claims by Sixiang, and isn't refuted by anything in the text. Whether the parasite could actually subsist long enough to figure out how to cause further problems is an open question, but that's kind of the crux of my point. It's an ambiguity, one we don't want, and the mere possibility is enough reason to make sure it's impossible.

 

[Tylonius]

And the second option holds 0 hint at any intention to go track the parasite down after the sealing, because it's based on the premise that the sealing will neuter the parasite.

Click to shrink...

Of course. Because the characters are, after all, idiots.

If we're concerned about the ability of the Parasite to drag material back out of the liminal, then that is a concern in both paths. It's just as likely to try and recover it's lost mass if it's being hunted down directly as it will if it's at risk of being sealed. Both are the sort of risks that demand all out reactions from the enemy. The difference between the two is that if we're hunting it, we need to fully deal with it before we can seal the breach, while if we're sealing it we can try and seal it mid defense to weaken it's full out attack. And then we'll have the Piper to aid us in finishing it off.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Of course. Because the characters are, after all, idiots.

If we're concerned about the ability of the Parasite to drag material back out of the liminal, then that is a concern in both paths. It's just as likely to try and recover it's lost mass if it's being hunted down directly as it will if it's at risk of being sealed. Both are the sort of risks that demand all out reactions from the enemy. The difference between the two is that if we're hunting it, we need to fully deal with it before we can seal the breach, while if we're sealing it we can try and seal it mid defense to weaken it's full out attack. And then we'll have the Piper to aid us in finishing it off.

Click to shrink...

I'm not concerned about the parasite's ability to drag material back out of the liminal! The concern that I have stated is that there's a big slab of impurity material that we threw into the liminal, which means the parasite is not immediately starved to death if the breach gets sealed. If it responds to the seal going up by grabbing that limb and hiding somewhere in the liminal it may, as in possibly, survive long enough to figure out some other vector of parasitizing or otherwise causing trouble than what it had been using. And the option which does the seal first would not respond to this, because it is premised on making the judgement that the parasite won't present a real danger.

That's not a judgement I think is safe or responsible to make. This isn't about characters being "idiots". This would simply be making a wrong call. If it's wrong! I don't know what's true or not, what's possible or not; that's why I prefer the course of action that kills the question of the possibility by killing the parasite.

And yes, if we hunt it, there's every possibility it's already grabbed the discarded arm by the time we track it down and we have a harder fight on our hands neutralizing it. That's the consequence of our previous choice of strategies. On the other hand, we also maximized the security of the Water node, which means we're not operating on a strict time limit like we may be otherwise.

edit: tl;dr: I have zero concerns about kicking this thing's ass. I have many concerns about it deciding to bail and continuing its trend of adaptability and learning to decide to hide when the fight is clearly lost. And yes Ling Qi's stunt with tossing the arm into the liminal reduces the immediate benefits from sealing the breach in countering this.

edit2: A really big problem for me is that there's a really high chance of simply not knowing what the parasite decided to do at the end. If we do the sealing first, Ling Qi will have her hands full protecting Li Suyin while she's installing the seal. She will not be able to monitor what the parasite itself is doing, or even where it is. By the time the seal goes up, the parasite is very likely to already be gone- this follows the pattern we've seen in it's behaviour. But crucially, we won't know where it's gone to. It could flee out through the breach, or it could flee inside the liminal on our side of the seal, and we just won't know which it picked. And we won't try to find out, because the option makes the judgement that it can't cause any harm anyway.

I don't like that.

 

[Kirr]

[X] Hunt the parasite down, you have wounded it awfully, best to finish it and then go for the seal.

 

[Glau]

The seal is not a guarantee at neutralizing the parasite.

Click to shrink...

And hunting is not a guarantee of catching.

You made a lot of good points about how hard this thing is going to be to hunt down. I don't think you can assume the hunt will be a success but the sealing might not be.

 

[Doramas]

Second point, there is no additional plan to "deal with the parasite" in the second vote option, where we perform the sealing first. The choice declares that the parasite is not a threat, full stop.

Click to shrink...

"Not a threat" in the sense that it will be easier to deal with it after sealing the breach. Not that LQ and Suyin would just say good work and go back home without finishing it off! That's nonsensical.

Where are you even getting that idea? The vote is about deciding the order of action: Sealing then Hunting, or Hunting then Sealing.
The options aren't only Sealing or Hunting and Sealing. That's disingenous.

And you keep overinflating the importance of the junk thrown in the liminal, as if it was a massive power source and hiding place for the parasite.
That dead meat is dissolving in the liminal as we speak, because that's what the liminal does.
Unless both LQ and the Piper approved of tactic that would actually enormously benefit the parasite but are entirely oblivious to it.

Your main concern is that, after sealing the breach, the parasite will flawlessly hide in the deep liminal and LQ will be powerless to stop it.
If it was capable of that, how is the Hunt even going to succeed. At any moment it feels cornered the parasite can launch all the impurity that it still has available, while drawing more from the breach, and take that chance to escape into the liminal as well.

And we won't try to find out, because the option makes the judgement that it can't cause any harm anyway.

Click to shrink...

This is absolute bullshit and you know it.

 

[trebobr]

Respectfully, this is a misreading of the options

Click to shrink...

Both options explicitly do the sealing. There isn't a "yes seal" and a "no seal" option. We don't have an option to not seal the breach; the reason we're here is to seal the breach. The breach will be sealed

Click to shrink...

Please don't misunderstand, I am well aware that we will eventually seal the underworld regardless of choice.
I also agree that there is some danger in letting go of chances to deal more damage to the parasite.

Despite that, I find it more satisfying to trust in Suyin's assessment and letting her seal the breach before all known enemies on our side are defeated.

 

[Bitterman]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[Yun]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[AbeoLogos]

And hunting is not a guarantee of catching.

You made a lot of good points about how hard this thing is going to be to hunt down. I don't think you can assume the hunt will be a success but the sealing might not be.

Click to shrink...

This is a false comparison. The sealing will be successful... at sealing the breach. The second order effect of starving out the parasite is NOT the sealing itself. At no point did I suggest the sealing wouldn't be unsuccessful, and I'm pretty annoyed at how you're mischaracterizing my... everything I've said, practically.

The reason it's feasible to hunt it now, but won't be later, is because it still has an interest to defend in the form of the breach. That lends its behaviour a degree of predictability. If it's in full flight mode -which it's NOT currently- we're not going to find it.

"Not a threat" in the sense that it will be easier to deal with it after sealing the breach. Not that LQ and Suyin would just say good work and go back home without finishing it off! That's nonsensical.

Where are you even getting that idea? The vote is about deciding the order of action: Sealing then Hunting, or Hunting then Sealing.
The options aren't only Sealing or Hunting and Sealing. That's disingenous.

And you keep overinflating the importance of the junk thrown in the liminal, as if it was a massive power source and hiding place for the parasite.
That dead meat is dissolving in the liminal as we speak, because that's what the liminal does.
Unless both LQ and the Piper approved of tactic that would actually enormously benefit the parasite but are entirely oblivious to it.

Your main concern is that, after sealing the breach, the parasite will flawlessly hide in the deep liminal and LQ will be powerless to stop it.
If it was capable of that, how is the Hunt even going to succeed. At any moment it feels cornered the parasite can launch all the impurity that it still has available, while drawing more from the breach, and take that chance to escape into the liminal as well.



This is absolute bullshit and you know it.

Click to shrink...

No, I disagree with you. Show me in the text where it says, or even suggests, Ling Qi will attempt to hunt down the parasite after the sealing. It's not there.

@yrsillar I know you're busy and may not even see this until it's no longer relevant, which is fine -life's gonna life-, but this is the kind of character intention detail it would be good to have clarified.

 

[Karthak Urzak]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[yrsillar]

You aren't planning to leave immediately after the sealing, but there is definitely to the parasite making an escape or lodging itself somewhere hard to find if you don't hunt it down.

 

[Frost5]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[Koguyra]

[X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

 

[Kanue Tomkin]

So if we don't go after the parasite then its getting away scott free. Potentially with intel, and knowledge of where to hit.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Thanks for the clarification.

Something else worth noting is that if the seal goes up and the parasite decides to bail, strictly speaking there's nothing really forcing it to stay inside of the Piper. Everywhere is a hostile environment at that point, so it's plausible it goes further afield. Back when we scouted the ith settlement, we saw them dumping rotten surface creatures, including but not limited to humans, into their impurity river.

Something like the parasite could quite possibly survive on the surface by scavenging carrion. It helps a lot that it's in the liminal instead of physical space. There seems to be less conflict between the opposed natures on that slice of reality. It'd still want to shelter during the day and avoid open air or flowing water, but it's doable from what little we've seen of the critter.

Come to think of it, it'd be kind of funny if it eventually, we're talking years, worked its way up to taking over that grumpy moose or something.

So if we don't go after the parasite then its getting away scott free. Potentially with intel, and knowledge of where to hit.

Click to shrink...

Technically speaking, it could decide to fight us to the last. We can't really solidly anticipate its reactions thanks to just how little of it we've actually managed to see. It's unpredictable.

I just don't really see the reason to take the risk in it getting away.

 

[PowerLeca]

Probably my favorite bit from this update.
Get her, Suyin!

She felt a wet slap across her masked face and a paper talisman inscribed with impurity wards seized hold across her face.

"So. I may have earned that."

"You definitely earned that, what a ridiculous plan," Li Suyin huffed, as the crust of oily gunk boiled away from Qiyi, drawn into the sealing formation.

Click to shrink...

Although LQ's strategy vs the parasite limb is very climactic "Agent K taunts Edgar The Bug" or even "El vs the Maw-mouth" it is just as horkably gross as either of them.

 

[duDave]

[X] Hunt the parasite down, you have wounded it awfully, best to finish it and then go for the seal.

 

[Frost5]

Adhoc vote count started by Frost5 on Jul 16, 2024 at 7:46 PM, finished with 144 posts and 95 votes.

• ---

  51 people have voted

  [X] Perform the sealing first, without the connection to the underworld ecosystem, the parasite will not be a threat.

  • SassyAsses
  • Alzabo
  • TheCount
  • ActionKermit
  • Doramas
  • edofthesquid
  • Aehs
  • thebluebadger
  • CuriousRaptor
  • Glau
  • o11c
  • Jimmy040
  • reignonyrparade
  • LucidProp
  • TimEd
  • Jiven
  • veekie
  • Valmond
  • ThreeWater
  • shadowoflight
  • zamin
  • KarmaA
  • BagFullOfLizards
  • Mr.Error
  • Mr. Prokosch
  • Catwings
  • Kai Merah
  • pakn1ne
  • NotteBoy97
  • Tylonius
  • wabbitking
  • DrNutella
  • Varder
  • Inferno Vulpix
  • Solar Saiyan
  • Winged One
  • Neptune
  • D.Rockstar
  • acidified
  • wingstrike96

  ... and 11 more.

  44 people have voted

  [X] Hunt the parasite down, you have wounded it awfully, best to finish it and then go for the seal.

  • GreenReveal
  • NoxOfUmbra
  • ReignTorrential
  • Hellbobr
  • Oliver_Twister
  • DeadmanwalkingXI
  • Pride
  • Kanue Tomkin
  • Haku93200
  • Synthesizer
  • ThreeThird
  • Alectai
  • Aliya
  • MrRageQuit
  • CommunismWillWin
  • weeblypanda
  • Raising Kittens
  • CoatRackRanger
  • ElizatronicWarfa
  • Zithinoth
  • AbeoLogos
  • PowerLeca
  • qazcdewsx
  • tenchifew
  • Mr.Kittens
  • olamide
  • 7ime1ock
  • barty
  • ShiroiYuki
  • Killer_Whale
  • abhisrkckl
  • Kelenas
  • farsuk
  • Orbmorb
  • Candesce
  • Vhalin
  • TedBear
  • HeiTian
  • adaer
  • Arkeus

  ... and 4 more.