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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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So, here are two things I want to note:

From a math perspective, we can really use the isolation XP because we currently have access to precisely 0 project that gives Isolation, while we have a very consistent source of Ending Xp in FFS. As a reminder, we're at Isolation IV (5/8) and at Ending II (1/3) and we'll get to Ending III this turn with the 2 XP from Ice and Dust. At this point, I'm afraid Power will end up overtaking Isolation, which might be bad, cause Isolation and Ending are the foundation of everything offensive we do, not Power.

More subjectively, I find the lesson we're taking from the isolation vote more... attached to our actual notion of what Isolation is than the Ending option, though I'll admit that our initial Insight about small endings and the final End make it hard to fit for this kind of vote. But if you read this and remember who Ling Qi used to be... The isolation description is basically Ling Qi in the streets of Tonghou.
 
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[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of nihilism, of belief in nothing. A selfishness so complete that it would devour itself and think itself genius in the doing. (+1 Endings XP)
 
Unrelated to the vote but I hope one day we come back and think over these conversations again. I think it will be useful when we try to build a shared vision of the ES. Because their blood has been spent like water, but the Bai are hated and the Shao are loved. I think it is partly the difference in the narrative behind things. The Bai wanted them to die for the Bai's gain while Shao wanted them to die to create a better world, or right wrongs or something less demeaning. Who knows maybe we will even be heretical enough to ask if this is any different than what the diviner did.

[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
olamide said:
Unrelated to the vote but I hope one day we come back and think over these conversations again. I think it will be useful when we try to build a shared vision of the ES. Because their blood has been spent like water, but the Bai are hated and the Shao are loved. I think it is partly the difference in the narrative behind things. The Bai wanted them to die for the Bai's gain while Shao wanted them to die to create a better world, or right wrongs or something less demeaning. Who knows maybe we will even be heretical enough to ask if this is any different than what the diviner did.
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The difference is consent, in many ways. They had no choice but to serve the Bai or die horribly. Sun Shao made them an offer and they went with him willingly. That simple fact makes all the difference in the world.

He also actually treats them better. Sun Shao will sacrifice anything for his goals, but he also only sacrifices things when he believes it achieves something. His soldiers need never fear they will be sent to die for no purpose (or no purpose but a noble's pride), as they often did under the Bai.

Sun Shao is a monster, but his essential lie to them aside, he's still objectively a much better boss than the Bai ever were to them.
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of nihilism, of belief in nothing. A selfishness so complete that it would devour itself and think itself genius in the doing. (+1 Endings XP)
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on May 24, 2023 at 4:41 AM, finished with 75 posts and 56 votes.
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I do think that while nihilism can be an apt description of Sun Shao... We know precisley jack shit about Shao. We have no idea what he did. What we do know are the answers of people of Western Territories, and they sure as hell didn't come across as nihilists. It makes more sense to me to go for the Isolation option here.
Plus, we do lack obvious isolation sources, so we probably should take them when we get them.
 
Aliya said:
I do think that while nihilism can be an apt description of Sun Shao... We know precisley jack shit about Shao. We have no idea what he did. What we do know are the answers of people of Western Territories, and they sure as hell didn't come across as nihilists. It makes more sense to me to go for the Isolation option here.
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I mean, as yrsillar notes by saying the wording of the story is determined by the vote, this is not strictly a choice made in-character by Ling Qi, so this argument doesn't really hold a lot of water, I don't think. Like, we the voters are determining what lessons she learns from the Art here, Ling Qi is not necessarily making that choice, so her knowledge or lack thereof of specific factors isn't really a major thing determining what happens.

The mechanical argument is entirely separate, and I'll only say that while we lack Isolation Projects at the moment, Isolation choices on votes like this come up a lot. So it's not predictable when we'll get them, but they aren't really that rare.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The mechanical argument is entirely separate, and I'll only say that while we lack Isolation Projects at the moment, Isolation choices on votes like this come up a lot. So it's not predictable when we'll get them, but they aren't really that rare.
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Well, it may come up often, but I've gone back all the way to turn 14, and we haven't voted for it once since then, at least. We only ever got the isolation Xp from the art upgrade since then. Someone on discord keeps count of those things, it's pretty handy :p
 
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barty said:
Well, it may come up often, but I've gone back all the way to turn 14, and we haven't voted for it once since then, at least. We only ever got the isolation Xp from the art upgrade since then.
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That's fair, just noting the distinction. Like, not voting for this is obviously choosing mot to pursue Isolation right now, and if we continue to not do that we obviously won't ever advance Isolation, but it's not missing a rare opportunity to raise it either.
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
That's fair, just noting the distinction. Like, not voting for this is obviously choosing not to pursue Isolation right now, and if we continue to not do that we obviously won't ever advance Isolation, but it's not missing a rare opportunity to raise it either.
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To continue on the mechanics, this is our second opportunity for isolation XP this turn (the other one was Liling's scars, we got community instead, the third option was Power)

In turn 17, we had 1 opportunity, in conversation with Elder Ying, we got Power

in turn 16, we had 1 opportunity, discussing the motives of Yan Renshu's betrayal, we got Community. Also, stretching things further, while building FFS we chose the version based on Ending, renewal and Cycle themes. One version was more about Isolation and Want and Ending

In turn 15, we had 2 opportunities, in the BKSD act, we chose community (I personally think it was by far the better choice, the isolation version would have even more infuriated the conservatives) and when given a choice of art we chose the Eyes of grudge (detection) that gave us persistence and Ending, the other choices were Isolation/want stealth art and Motion/freedom movement art.

In turn 14, we had the option to buy a gift for someone to unlock a personal action the following turn, the options were Xuan Shi for isolation, Bao Qian for Expression, and Li Suyin for Creation, we chose the latter.

In turn 13, had opportunities: we could choose whether we saw a Wife (Want), a Matriarch (Community) or a Killer (Isolation) in Diao Linqin (we made the (Gay) right choice), we had to choose whether to team with Xuan Shi (isolation) or Luo Zhong (Community) in a spar, and while selling the Ith dagger to Xia Lushen, we had the options to get 200 green stones, reagents for our 4th ascension elixir, a quick lesson giving us 1 XP to Ending and Isolation or soil studies. We got the latter.


In conclusion, it appears that we haven't voted for an Isolation option since the second tournament/ turn 13 at least (that's the summer of 2021), and I think it's time to break the pattern.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The difference is consent, in many ways. They had no choice but to serve the Bai or die horribly. Sun Shao made them an offer and they went with him willingly. That simple fact makes all the difference in the world.

He also actually treats them better. Sun Shao will sacrifice anything for his goals, but he also only sacrifices things when he believes it achieves something. His soldiers need never fear they will be sent to die for no purpose (or no purpose but a noble's pride), as they often did under the Bai.

Sun Shao is a monster, but his essential lie to them aside, he's still objectively a much better boss than the Bai ever were to them.
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I generally agree with your points. The Shao are better rulers, excluding some fairly serious lies, than the Bai, and he did give most people a chance initially, though now they really don't have one.

But I am mostly interested in thinking about the Shao vs the diviner vs the Cai. Have the Cai created a story for the ES? There was the whole anti-Hui bit, but one quick genocide later and that is done. So what's uniting the ES now? The diviner left something but it didn't seem to last. In some ways the Butcher is leaving more of a legacy than the Cai. Anyway, I just think it is neat.
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
Adhoc vote count started by Aliya on May 24, 2023 at 9:12 AM, finished with 88 posts and 62 votes.
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A tally, for people's convenience.
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of personal emptiness, of isolation in multitude. A thousand devouring mouths that acknowledged only themselves. (+1 Isolation XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of nihilism, of belief in nothing. A selfishness so complete that it would devour itself and think itself genius in the doing. (+1 Endings XP)
 
[X] The Vermin God is the Power of nihilism, of belief in nothing. A selfishness so complete that it would devour itself and think itself genius in the doing. (+1 Endings XP)
 
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