Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Since the Xuan where integrated through diplomacy, and currently trade with foreigners, the current situation isn't actually that unique. It's just the Sun specifically that are oriented around violently expanding borders, since that is how they got their province. So Option 3 is a direct challenge to the Sun and their methods more than anything.
Not just the Xuan. The Sage got the Zheng and Bai on-board through diplomacy back in the beginning.

[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
...So ummmm.... what happens when the White Sky envoys hear about this idea that this whole thing is about diplomatically absorbing them into the Empire?

What? You don't think that's a reading of "there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire".
 
[X] Settling the wall with the aim of ending the raiding that has killed so many of her people since time immemorial. That is the frontmost goal.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
Looking at them closely, all of these options nod to Emerald Seas national identity in one way or another, which is fun.

[ ] Settling the wall with the aim of ending the raiding that has killed so many of her people since time immemorial. That is the frontmost goal.

This statement is not untrue. And not unsympathetic for a Sun audience, even if they're liable to view ES conditions as soft as far as barbarian raiding goes. Adopting the peoples of the Emerald Seas as her people is a nice touch. As a stance, it's kind of unimaginative though? In the manner of the Xi.

Actual reality is more complicated, of course. She's not actually saying anything about who gets to be her people and how settlement goes down. This vision of the future isn't even a little incompatible with a mutually syncretic cultural fusion with the Cloud Tribes, even. A less bloody and heavy-handed version of the Sun's own bilateral assimilation would not contradict the mission statement. Which is funny.

Still, it's pretty flat in the immediate social context. It's not like Ling Qi doesn't believe in it, but her deeper beliefs are, well, deeper. Seems like a low chance of mutual cultivation sparks or similar nonsense.

[ ] Showing that the Wall could be tamed and that the Emerald Sea could pacify its own borders, and conduct itself as a province of the Empire no less than any other.

I find this one interesting because it leans most heavily into defining a distinct/autonomous Emerald Sea's political identity and it strongly echoes the politics of the Diao when it comes to themselves. Going with this stance would probably be agreeable with basically all factions of the Diao, even if they don't agree with the project as a whole. It's also a way to maybe loop them into our Emerald Seas identity cultural project, while creating openings to launder fun Weilu things into the mix.

More presently, this position mirrors a lot of what the Sun and Western Territory are trying to do themselves. Seize legitimacy as an independent and rightful province of the empire, equal to any other, and afforded the same (existential) rights and guarantees as the rest are. Given that similarity, I can see a moment of higher communication crossing between Ling Qi and Sun Liling as the latter digests our stated priorities.

[ ] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.

Here's where we more boldly stand by the value of diplomatic efforts, while leaving the door concerningly open to more. Maybe. It's ambiguous, and that's the way we like it. This approach ruffles feathers and raises concerned eyebrows, but it doesn't technically directly offer any explicit ammunition. Which is, of course, grounds for complaint on its own.

It's sort of Fun™️ in terms of the Sun, though. Because, as much as he's the Butcher King, Sun Shao has definitely been pursuing means besides 'sword and fire' to build his extension of the Empire. Sun Liling herself is evidence of that. The full reach of our willingness to experiment contained in this statement is potentially very useful to the Sun. For similar reasons to the above option, I can see this sparking an elevated exchange between Sun Liling and Ling Qi.


[X] Showing that the Wall could be tamed and that the Emerald Sea could pacify its own borders, and conduct itself as a province of the Empire no less than any other.

I'm going with this one because I think the domestic political implications are more interesting. I'd rather have a rhetorical carrot we can play around with some of our local ideological critics with. It just feels more overall engaging than an, admittedly badass, one-off mission statement. Hmm, put another way, option 3 has some pretty plot threads, but I worry it strings them up a bit beyond our grasp. There's nothing wrong with aspiring to those heights, but I prefer something with more concrete tactile feedback in the interim.
 
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[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither
 
As my vote indicates, I'm all for the third option, but even if Yrs didn't indicate it, I expect it'll have consequences on the MoI's mood as well as our reputation. In the other hand, it's also a stance the MoI can't criticize Renxiang and her retainers alone on, since Shenhua already applied it by subjugating the other ith city under Xiangmen, and that will end up mattering imo. The MoI might react more badly to 2, even, because exacerbating provincial nationalism should ring more alarms for them than divergent policies.


Edit: Also, let's not forget that we have this: " +2 to highest Social Trait when in debate with opposing concepts."
I don't see Liling actually winning this argument, and it's going to be fun.
 
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Speaking of, with the "more methods, more tools" option, I wonder if Ling Qi could work in a comment about Sun Liling sprouting extra arms to wield all of hers, so they're maybe not too far off from being of the same mind after all.

Though, the possibility remains that they're actually not. Which would be funny, imo.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
[X] Settling the wall with the aim of ending the raiding that has killed so many of her people since time immemorial. That is the frontmost goal.

i like the other option. But being true to myself this is what I want the most. An end to the border war.
 
[X] Showing that the Wall could be tamed and that the Emerald Sea could pacify its own borders, and conduct itself as a province of the Empire no less than any other.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
 
"Feh, you've got bad taste princess, those Jin have been warming their throne as long as we've been gathering moss, and they still act like a bunch of newbies," Zheng Fu scoffed. "The Cai and the Guo are already a league or two ahead on attitude alone."
Kek. The Jin have been Dukes for 6100 years, but apparently they still act like insecure new money.
 
Kek. The Jin have been Dukes for 6100 years, but apparently they still act like insecure new money.

To be fair, 6000 years is only about twenty or thirty generations by immortal standards. And to be fairer, many Jins spend their formative years as glorified corsairs, which is already a euphemism for "state-sponsored pirate". Pirates are not known for their taste, even if they're nobles. Especially if they're nobles. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a "At Least I Admit It" attitude in that clan, arguing that many imperial cultivators are corrupt and violent, so why should they be singled out? At least their worst excesses happen outside the Empire.
 
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I'm pretty sure the standard for "proper" Ducal clans being used here is comfort with dissenting from the imperial throne. They're elbowing the Jin for perceived obedience to an external entity.
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.

Option 3 is closest to Cai Renxiang and Ling Qi's intentions, and CRX has been given a lot of influence over the summit, so their opinions do matter. The Duchess and her ministers would probably give a different answer, but 1) Ling Qi is the one answering the question and 2) the other two options probably leave out some parts of their plans we are not privy to (there's always another secret).
 
[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.

The most accurate and honest answer. Sure it'll piss a lot of people off but we need to draw that line in the sand.
 
So, looking back at what Jiao and Xin told us last turn...
Ling Qi frowned. He was similar to Cai Renxiang. Or… no that was a disservice to her liege. They approached similar conclusions from different directions. Renxiang saw clearly defined law and systemic solutions as the best means to reach her end. It seemed that Cao Chun saw such a hard system as an end unto itself. "It seems like it will be impossible to fully sway him then. Our goals are misaligned."

"Quick, that's good, not bothering to waste time agonizing over the idea that you can't be everyone's friend. You've grown, a little, better than I expected with what I can see you cultivating," Elder Jiao said.

Ling Qi remained silent for a moment. "I am going to be condescended too a lot, aren't I? I want to understand. I want to be understood. There is nothing about that which precludes me from recognizing an enemy, and opposing them."

He met her eyes, and she did not lower her head or look away. Let him see the truth of her conviction.

"You will be," Elder Jiao said bluntly. "Understanding, as you put it, is something which most will see as inherently weak and compromising. It most often is, after all. The domain of mush mouthed courtiers seeking to slide between arguments and differing positions while never once committing to anything."

That wasn't fair. But she already knew the lie of fairness.

"Hm, my husband is being too negative again. Show your own convictions, show that you have positions, and such thrown mud will slide off of you, when you speak in person, lingering only in rumor," Xin said.

I think option 3 works best.

[X] To establish that there were more methods, more tools that could be used to build the Empire out than sword and fire, even as they showed the Emerald Seas was lacking in neither.
However, even though all options speak of building the Empire in some way, this would probably resonate with Cao Chun the most if he hears it....

She was probably overthinking things, it was true. "We have already begun an idea, something like the Xuan's foreign quarter. Presenting a working blueprint of that, stripped down to the mechanical aspects. Do you think that would be something he could be sold on."

"If you frame it correctly. SOme see the Xuan as barely better than barbarians themselves, with the distance they keep. Cao Chun is not one of them, even if he might be influenced by that rhetoric."

"Wayward, and not foreign," Xin finished. "If I might add a suggestion, some implication that Imperial ways might spread will help you. That man's pride does not lie in himself but institutions, and he truly believes imperial ways and means bring the greatest safety and happiness."

so I'm approval voting!
[X] Showing that the Wall could be tamed and that the Emerald Sea could pacify its own borders, and conduct itself as a province of the Empire no less than any other.
 
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