- Location
- United States of America
Stability and consistency would be my guess.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Rigth, the WS may be interested in a cultivation method that doesn't involve sacrificing body parts and then puts you in a count down to replace them
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Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The thing about the whole sacrificing body parts thing is, it's part of their religion, and actively powers their gods. Which is why I didn't bring it up.
Maybe giving untalented people the ability to do more with the imperial method can work though
Maybe giving untalented people the ability to do more with the imperial method can work though
Some of the provinces might be interested in Polar methods, but the Empire? As in the Celestial Peaks? Ahaha no. One of their observer's stated aims is precisely to prevent any cross-cultural business:
"Current mobilization will already do much to clear a buffer zone in the normal mountains," Cao Chun allowed. He had not relaxed, but he was at least listening to them with something more like condescension than outright hostility. "If I may, perhaps you should think about expanding this concept. The Xuan, with their special dispensation, have their foreign quarters. If these barbarians could be contained to a limited number of controlled regions, I believe that would assuage many concerns of contamination."
[...]
"However, this is still a most unusual action. I will have advice as we proceed. If things go well, the people of the south will have their time to recover. If not, this will still buy some time while other matters are cleaned up. I will observe these barbarians and ensure that none of their savagery takes root."
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean the Empire as a whole, so all the provinces.
The WS method opens up a lot of fun questions, like how meridians or geomancy works in thr WS gods, and how the methods of becoming a city can be applied to architecture.
And then, there's the whole having a mantle to embody a god, and how it enables one to change their Way. Depending on how it's done, maybe it can be used for some (imperial) Great Spirits too, or for just normal research into cultivation.
I'm sure even people in the Peaks would be interested. Take Astronomer Wu for example. The more we learn, they'll be interested.
Like, even imperial conservatives understand that barbarians sometimes have good ideas or stuff. They just think they're too stupid to realise it, so they pillage them, take their knowledge, and then spin it as theirs
Shadow of the Lakes
"And why, sister, should I or anyone else be concerned by such trifling complaints?" Bai Suzhen asked. Despite her flippant words, she was curious as to her sister's reasoning. Bai Meilin was a bit strange, but listening to her often led the mind in interesting directions.
It was rare for genuine siblings of their caste to be so close in age, barely five years apart. But, with the great losses inflicted upon them by the Betrayal of the scaleless, Father and Mother had wished to lead by example. It made their childhood somewhat strange. Meilin was slight and small, even for a Lady of the Bai, and her character was soft spoken and untowardly forgiving.
Unlike Father and Mother though, Bai Suzhen had never been able to leave her sister alone. She knew it was wrong of her, that her protection and coddling had likely stunted Meilin's growth, showing in the manner in which their cultivation levels had begun to diverge more and more.
Such were the thoughts passing through her mind as they walked the shores of lake Hei, deep in the morning mist. Beside her Meilin considered her words, silently turning the white parasol in her hands. Meilin was still a small, doll like woman, even now, nearing her centennial. She wore her white hair in wrapped braids, held by silver wire and decorated with little chiming bells. Like Suzhen her features were those of a trueborn white serpent, with a thin face and golden eyes. Her skin bore true scales, a mark of strong blood despite her demeanor.
"Because they are not so trifling," Bai Meilin replied. "It can only do us harm to continue demanding more of the Violet caste. Already their defenses are bare."
"It is not their place to make demands," Bai Suzhen replied. Everything was difficult, in the wake of the betrayal. "Does the hand make demands of the head?"
"Do you ignore a wound to your hand? Do you threaten to strike it off if its grip trembles?" Bai Meilin rejoined, arching a scaled brow. "You O Master of blades, should know better than most the destruction wrought by pushing a recovering body beyond its means. It does naught but waste weeks and months of conditioning."
Bai Suzhen wrinkled her nose, conceding the point. "You superior mastery of metaphor beside, will it not harm us even further to show such weakness, to make concessions on what the lower castes owe?"
"There is no weakness that all eyes do not see," Bai Meilin replied. "Think sister. None will say it, but any with eyes to see and ears to hear know what we have suffered. Now is not the time for petty games, you know my thoughts on those who insist that grandfather did nothing wrong."
Bai Suzhen frowned deeply, if any other person had made such implications, she would have cut them down. "Meilin, there are limits."
Her sister turned an eye to look at her as they stopped by the misty shore. "Will you say that you agree with those preening creatures who insist on acting as if nothing has changed?"
Bai Suzhen took a deep breath, her Name pulsed in her chest, at the core of second dantian. White Blade Devil, she who had devoted herself to the championship of their clan, she who would interrogate them for weakness and cut down their foes.
And yet, and yet there were so many who she could only see as saboteurs, perhaps not consciously, but in action. It was a stabbing ache, and one she knew she would have to resolve as she refined her Name, and began to construct the second. "Our pride outgrew our ability," she said, and speaking those words felt like her teeth were being ripped from her gums.
She only dared speak them here, alone on the shore with her sister.
"It is more than that, we have forgotten Great Yao, and the stricture of the healthy body," Bai Meilin said. "We have grown as stiff and brittle as the chitin of the Face Eater, grown so fat on sacrifice. I think, sister, that your metaphor of a body is a good one."
"Rotten, infected," Bai Suzhen said softly. When she had begun to seek the weakness that had infected the clan, Meilin's words were often her guide. But she could not see as her sister saw. Strength was such a terribly complicated thing.
"Abused, ill cared for," Bai Meilin replied, looking out over the black waters. The sacred isle could be seen from here, a bare bump on the horizon. "We have neglected our hands and our feet, the organs of our body, seeing only the mind as having value."
This was how Meilin sometimes let her see. Yao's stricture of the healthy body was core to the physical cultivation of the clan. With it, she had molded her flesh into a weapon. It was… possible for her to picture the whole of Thousand Lakes, the Bai Clan as a Body. It made it possible for her to comprehend the problem, even without her sister's bizarre turns of thought and sympathy for the lesser castes. "What then, do you think should be done?"
"Respect," Bai Meilin replied. "That is first, just a little respect. Appropriate rewards for duty done well. Punishment of those who waste the blood of the Bai on their petty tantrums. Listen when a subordinate says 'can't'. We are fear embodied, imagine what it must take for one to look up at us and say 'I cannot'."
Bai Suzhen's mind went to the most recent flare ups, the beating of one of the Violet Caste Lords sons for some petty insult one of Bai Liezhe's daughters. It was a genuine waste, the boy's cultivation was certainly set back, and the 'insult' had been some absurd nonsense regarding the dimensions of the girl's guest room.
It was… understandable for the violet to be upset over this.
Sometimes the things Meilin made her realize were deeply painful.
"I will talk with Father," Bai Suzhen said slowly. "Though it still seems dangerous to concede to me. What are our lessers to follow us for, if not our unassailable strength?"
"Our ability to bring them victory, I would say," Bai Meilin said, inclining her head. "We-us, the Bai clan has more strength than any can imagine, if only we can come to tap it, to make of the castes something whole and greater. This I know you can do, Sister. You do not share the blindness of so many of our kin, your eyes are as sharp as your blade, my small advice is only on where to look."
Bai Suzhen frowned, and some part of her wondered how true that was. The Bai clan was vast, and the rot… it was rot, despite Meilin's words, ran deep.
Would she truly be able to find its roots alone?
It was rare for genuine siblings of their caste to be so close in age, barely five years apart. But, with the great losses inflicted upon them by the Betrayal of the scaleless, Father and Mother had wished to lead by example. It made their childhood somewhat strange. Meilin was slight and small, even for a Lady of the Bai, and her character was soft spoken and untowardly forgiving.
Unlike Father and Mother though, Bai Suzhen had never been able to leave her sister alone. She knew it was wrong of her, that her protection and coddling had likely stunted Meilin's growth, showing in the manner in which their cultivation levels had begun to diverge more and more.
Such were the thoughts passing through her mind as they walked the shores of lake Hei, deep in the morning mist. Beside her Meilin considered her words, silently turning the white parasol in her hands. Meilin was still a small, doll like woman, even now, nearing her centennial. She wore her white hair in wrapped braids, held by silver wire and decorated with little chiming bells. Like Suzhen her features were those of a trueborn white serpent, with a thin face and golden eyes. Her skin bore true scales, a mark of strong blood despite her demeanor.
"Because they are not so trifling," Bai Meilin replied. "It can only do us harm to continue demanding more of the Violet caste. Already their defenses are bare."
"It is not their place to make demands," Bai Suzhen replied. Everything was difficult, in the wake of the betrayal. "Does the hand make demands of the head?"
"Do you ignore a wound to your hand? Do you threaten to strike it off if its grip trembles?" Bai Meilin rejoined, arching a scaled brow. "You O Master of blades, should know better than most the destruction wrought by pushing a recovering body beyond its means. It does naught but waste weeks and months of conditioning."
Bai Suzhen wrinkled her nose, conceding the point. "You superior mastery of metaphor beside, will it not harm us even further to show such weakness, to make concessions on what the lower castes owe?"
"There is no weakness that all eyes do not see," Bai Meilin replied. "Think sister. None will say it, but any with eyes to see and ears to hear know what we have suffered. Now is not the time for petty games, you know my thoughts on those who insist that grandfather did nothing wrong."
Bai Suzhen frowned deeply, if any other person had made such implications, she would have cut them down. "Meilin, there are limits."
Her sister turned an eye to look at her as they stopped by the misty shore. "Will you say that you agree with those preening creatures who insist on acting as if nothing has changed?"
Bai Suzhen took a deep breath, her Name pulsed in her chest, at the core of second dantian. White Blade Devil, she who had devoted herself to the championship of their clan, she who would interrogate them for weakness and cut down their foes.
And yet, and yet there were so many who she could only see as saboteurs, perhaps not consciously, but in action. It was a stabbing ache, and one she knew she would have to resolve as she refined her Name, and began to construct the second. "Our pride outgrew our ability," she said, and speaking those words felt like her teeth were being ripped from her gums.
She only dared speak them here, alone on the shore with her sister.
"It is more than that, we have forgotten Great Yao, and the stricture of the healthy body," Bai Meilin said. "We have grown as stiff and brittle as the chitin of the Face Eater, grown so fat on sacrifice. I think, sister, that your metaphor of a body is a good one."
"Rotten, infected," Bai Suzhen said softly. When she had begun to seek the weakness that had infected the clan, Meilin's words were often her guide. But she could not see as her sister saw. Strength was such a terribly complicated thing.
"Abused, ill cared for," Bai Meilin replied, looking out over the black waters. The sacred isle could be seen from here, a bare bump on the horizon. "We have neglected our hands and our feet, the organs of our body, seeing only the mind as having value."
This was how Meilin sometimes let her see. Yao's stricture of the healthy body was core to the physical cultivation of the clan. With it, she had molded her flesh into a weapon. It was… possible for her to picture the whole of Thousand Lakes, the Bai Clan as a Body. It made it possible for her to comprehend the problem, even without her sister's bizarre turns of thought and sympathy for the lesser castes. "What then, do you think should be done?"
"Respect," Bai Meilin replied. "That is first, just a little respect. Appropriate rewards for duty done well. Punishment of those who waste the blood of the Bai on their petty tantrums. Listen when a subordinate says 'can't'. We are fear embodied, imagine what it must take for one to look up at us and say 'I cannot'."
Bai Suzhen's mind went to the most recent flare ups, the beating of one of the Violet Caste Lords sons for some petty insult one of Bai Liezhe's daughters. It was a genuine waste, the boy's cultivation was certainly set back, and the 'insult' had been some absurd nonsense regarding the dimensions of the girl's guest room.
It was… understandable for the violet to be upset over this.
Sometimes the things Meilin made her realize were deeply painful.
"I will talk with Father," Bai Suzhen said slowly. "Though it still seems dangerous to concede to me. What are our lessers to follow us for, if not our unassailable strength?"
"Our ability to bring them victory, I would say," Bai Meilin said, inclining her head. "We-us, the Bai clan has more strength than any can imagine, if only we can come to tap it, to make of the castes something whole and greater. This I know you can do, Sister. You do not share the blindness of so many of our kin, your eyes are as sharp as your blade, my small advice is only on where to look."
Bai Suzhen frowned, and some part of her wondered how true that was. The Bai clan was vast, and the rot… it was rot, despite Meilin's words, ran deep.
Would she truly be able to find its roots alone?
I am in awe. Both of the, well, everything "waves hands about wildly" about the White Serpents that this chapter shows us, and that Meilin was somehow able to break free from the madness.
To not even be able to conceive of a way other than "obey or die." No matter what he became later, I am 100% supportive of Sun Shao rebelling and obliterating the Bai leadership. To call them toxic (pun not intended) would be a massive understatement.
Hell, they were, dare I say it...as bad as the Hui.
- Location
- scrabbling
This type of awareness of Hobbesian Leviathan historically came from the old structures becoming calcified and abused. It's not any group 'being bad', it's humans being bad at comprehending the scale of the drift between what should be and what is, the human mind being bad at avoiding shortcuts.
We simplify because we cannot cope otherwise, and those simplifications introduce error, unless reformulated often. And that reformulation is uncomfortable, because it demands we take in the whole scope, and the ability to do that is rare and needs to take a high place within the hierarchy of simplification in order for the one with that ability to reform effectively.
We simplify because we cannot cope otherwise, and those simplifications introduce error, unless reformulated often. And that reformulation is uncomfortable, because it demands we take in the whole scope, and the ability to do that is rare and needs to take a high place within the hierarchy of simplification in order for the one with that ability to reform effectively.
From a certain point of view, Sun Shao saved the Bai from a future where they weaken themselves enough with infighting that someone manages to sweep them away entirely. Thousand years in the future that would probably e a hotly debated opinion among scholars
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's hard to say at this degree of removal, we haven't really seen enough of either. I think the Hui were probably slightly worse because they basically hurt people for fun, while the Bai generally did so only if they were challenged in any way. Like, keeping your head down actually usually worked with the Bai, whereas it was unreliable at best with the Hui since they might just decide to hurt you for fun (I'm sure that happened under the Bai as well, but less often).
But the Bai under Fuxi were, at the very least, a real close second in how awful they were (at least recently...let's not talk about the Sage Emperor himself).
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You could say he...burned out the bad.
I'm going to hell for this.
Almost all their vassals preferred to do a Conquer Or Die, No Going Back run on the Hell-Jungle rather than stay under the thumb of the Bai any longer. And recall how Meizhen really didn't want Qi to become a Bai vassal.
I'm not sure keeping your head down was a way to survive unscathed at all. The White Serpents are cruel. Look at what happened to that Violet boy over something utterly trivial.
Wow, we have heard so much about Meizhen's mother and now we finally have the chance to see her in person. Both Suzhen and Hou Zhang held her in so high regard, I can only say it's completely warranted. The Bai trully suffered a heavy loss when she was framed for that Prince's murder (We never learnt who was behind that, did we? It happened 10-15 years ago which is really recent).
Hou Zhang had said that Meilin's understanding of Bai's psicology was much more visceral that his. Here we see what he meant.
After Sun's revolt, so many White Serpents just doubled down in their methods, all to pretend that the "betrayal" hadn't affected them. How could it, if they were so mighty? They completely refused to grow and learn, to face reality
Then they took it out with the other castes. They committed the same mistake of mistreating their subjects, all because it's "their place" to sacrifice themselves for the White's sake and serve them. This still continues. When GG's soldiers withdrew from the tournament, Lao Keung was surprised they didn't resent him while Xia Anxi thought it was just natural.
The Whites couldn't undertand something so simple as rewarding a successful vassal or commend their services. To not make unreasonable demands of them and to not punish them unduely.
The idea that the other castes may feel wronged and unrespected didn't even occur to them. And even if they were unsatisfied, why did it matter? They will still always obey, because that's their place... rigth?
This is the danger of the absolute certainty of your superiority and dominion in the world. A place you haven't earned but simply have because it's your birthright, how it's meant to be.
The Bai truly were like the Hui.
Suzhen has a long way to go still with her reforms.
Hou Zhang had said that Meilin's understanding of Bai's psicology was much more visceral that his. Here we see what he meant.
After Sun's revolt, so many White Serpents just doubled down in their methods, all to pretend that the "betrayal" hadn't affected them. How could it, if they were so mighty? They completely refused to grow and learn, to face reality
Then they took it out with the other castes. They committed the same mistake of mistreating their subjects, all because it's "their place" to sacrifice themselves for the White's sake and serve them. This still continues. When GG's soldiers withdrew from the tournament, Lao Keung was surprised they didn't resent him while Xia Anxi thought it was just natural.
The Whites couldn't undertand something so simple as rewarding a successful vassal or commend their services. To not make unreasonable demands of them and to not punish them unduely.
The idea that the other castes may feel wronged and unrespected didn't even occur to them. And even if they were unsatisfied, why did it matter? They will still always obey, because that's their place... rigth?
This is the danger of the absolute certainty of your superiority and dominion in the world. A place you haven't earned but simply have because it's your birthright, how it's meant to be.
The Bai truly were like the Hui.
Suzhen has a long way to go still with her reforms.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Some of that was loyalty to Sun Shao who, whatever else you can say about him, definitely didn't keep his head down. I also think Ling Qi's ability to keep her head down verges on the nonexistent and Meizhen is aware of that fact. So neither of those really present a compelling argument against keeping one's head down working.
Now, as I edited in almost immediately after posting, I do think that some Bai probably do torture their subordinates for entertainment, and keeping one's head down is certainly not an absolute defense, but I think that sort of thing was significantly more common among the Hui. The Bai are cruel in their punishment of even the smallest defiance, the Hui plucked the wings off flies for the hell of it, and there's a distinction there, even if both are incredibly awful.
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Sun Shao did exactly as his Lord ordered him to, without complaint or shirk. He didn't even play any retaliatory fuck-fuck games with the people who messed with him:
And for doing his job, his family was skinned alive.
If faithfully following orders doesn't protect you from abuse, then shit's fucked. Shao's head was pulled up by Fuxi, he didn't do it himself.
Meilin appears to have been the Bai version of Machiavelli (and fittingly was more like how the man comes across in his other works) and slowly building up good rhetoric on why the White Serpent caste don't deserve to be unquestioned.
So I am convinced that Meilin was framed for the murder by another faction within the White Serpent caste, because she was attacking their rhetoric to abuse those below them.
So I am convinced that Meilin was framed for the murder by another faction within the White Serpent caste, because she was attacking their rhetoric to abuse those below them.
I just realised something. Qi's unholy Grinning/Dreaming/Hidden combo patronage is really good for ferreting out secrets others would rather not have come to light, correct?
So what would be a better wedding gift to Best Snek when she marries Qingling (when everyone's around Indigo, maybe?) than incontrovertible proof that Meizhen's mother was framed for the prince's murder, as well as the identity of the real killers? Proof so public and iron-clad even the Imperial Clan would have no choice but to posthumously exonerate Meilin and offer an apology to Meizhen.
Probably make a whole lot of Peakies Big Mad, but eh, fuck 'em.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Being promoted over your social superiors after having proved them incompetent is not 'keeping your head down'. It's something extremely notable and attention getting. In a well-run organization, it would be so in a good way...but it sure isn't keeping your head down.
My point is not to defend Bai Fuxi, who was a waste of skin, or to say that the Bai's rule was just under him (it was not), it was to make a point about the distinction. From what we've seen Random Farmer #3 (or Random Courtier #3) who works hard to be nondescript and has never defied his superiors was a lot less likely to get randomly abused or tortured to death purely for existing by the Bai than by the Hui, which makes them marginally less awful.
'Less awful than the Hui' however, may be the most 'damning with faint praise' I have ever indulged in. Bai Fuxi was a worthless leader and the Bai under him deserved everything they got from Sun Shao, and I never said otherwise.
Well he's got a point there Ling Qi.
What happened with all that horrifically exhausting physical cultivation you had to do in Forge? Where you pushed your body to to complete shutdown under the auspices of Zhou?
Now it's all meditation, drugs, philosophy and dream trekking.
Need to return to our roots and hit the gym, miss noodle arms.
Keep in mind it's not really to our benefit to facilitate broad scale exchanges outside our grasp. It's actually best for us to monopolize any swaps as much as feasible.
We're definitely held back by our lacking clan base and juvenile infrastructure holdings, so compromise on this is inevitable. However, something like mutual exchange at a great sect is just bleeding personal advantage, and I'm not sure it'd really significantly better things over all. The narrative would be completely out of our control or ability to influence, and the Empire's full of jerks.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
No, but that's ok. That's what she has her beloved sister Meilin to help her with.
Together, they can bring about something greater. And possibly, something better.
- Location
- Canada
Nobody and nothing we've seen are as bad as the Hui
Yrs literally designed the Hui to be The Worst (TM)
In his own words
Yrsillar—05/20/2020
like man fuck the Hui, they sucked
Yrsillar—08/19/2021
cowards, the words your looking for is cowards
the fundamental flaw of the Hui was always the refusal to accept even the possibility of personal loss
they're the preening palace nobles insistent that the howling mob in the streets can't reach them
they're manipulators of perceptions 100% assured that the leopard will never eat their face
they're the spider sitting in their web, never making a move until their pray is utterly helpless
Yrsillar—08/19/2021
they wouldn't call it cowardice no
they would see it as knowing that their own value is so high that its loss is incalculable
Yrsillar—08/19/2021
one of my literary inspirations for them is literally the Celestial Dragons of One Piece.
They are The Worst
Not to say the Bai haven't knotted their governance into its own toxic snake pit, they absolutely have and things are bad
But the Hui are like, cartoon supervillain evil played horrifyingly straight
If a Bai goes around killing mortals because one of them spilled wine on his shoes he's still seen as a psychopath
Whereas the Hui can and do choose to do that because they're so solipsistic that the concept of other people mattering is foreign to them
The Bai are what they are because they just... never lost before, so they've never had to adapt, so their systems calcified and rotted
They have a rigid caste system, they're highly xenophobic, they rely on ruling through fear and aren't accustomed to compromise, they're a bit of a mess of political infighting and backstabbing
They're an overly prideful group of calcified isolationists with zero self awareness
They're pretty awful as a group yeah
But they're still not as bad as the Hui because to their credit they do actually care about their role as governors and caretakers, and specifically don't have a history of abusing mortals (if only because that kind of behaviour is regarded as way beneath them)
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Inb4 Ling Qi gets herself assassinated because she meddled in the affairs of the Imperial Family.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Wow yeah I love her so much, and now I need to know the exact circumstances that got her executed.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
Yeah, it's very easy to see why people wanted her dead. Hopefully her daughter can carry on her legacy of peace, growth, and understanding.