Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I imagine that it would be nice when making decisions to be able to see the future and have some representation of what effect taking a choice would be... but people don't work like that. Part of the in universe challenge of cultivation is trying to balance stuff like this and they don't get a nice character sheet filled with numbers that represent their cultivation. Adding numerical outcomes like this is still fundamentally an external thing that shifts more of our understanding of Ling Qi to the character sheet and away from the actual character.

There's still room for making social decisions based on cultivation, or ignoring social expediency for the sake of Ling Qi's way, but having magical prognosticating number deltas is not how Ling Qi would make that decision.

I just don't agree with "Narrative meta gaming" being a thing. I think the character sheet should be a reflection of the character, not the character a reflection of the character sheet.

In my experience, without a significant amount of mechanical scaffolding, characters in stories in this sort of medium become vastly simplified over time. Which is supposed to happen to some degree in-universe, but presumably not to the point of becoming an inhuman caricature within a year. Furthermore character growth, as a slow but constant development, becomes very easy to overlook and this can result in an increasingly static portrayal.

The more control that yrsillar retains the more this can be avoided but that's inherently in tension with this being a quest driven by a hivemind of over a hundred people. He'll probably do a good job regardless but I'd rather not have him have to fight us to do it.
 
Ultimately quests pretty much always operate on some level of in-character roleplay, gameplaying, and meta-narrative interaction. Some votes tend towards more being in-character decisions, others are more about gameplay or puzzle solving, others are just about giving an indication of what kind of story people would be interested in. Many votes are often operating on multiple axes simultaneously. Trying to be purists about this and insisting that a quest only be engaged with in one way is likely to be counterproductive.

My position is that being transparent about rolls is generally always good for communication, as it gets directly to how the risk is actually going to be implemented. Assuming that the qm's subjective interpretation of the risk is always going to align with our interpretation is dangerous, and can easily lead to miscommunication and violated expectations about what a vote actually entailed. Rewards I think are something that, on the other hand, may or may not be useful additions depending on the situation. Sometimes the point of a vote is to communicate a feeling of uncertainty and the unknown. Other times the point of a vote is to present a puzzle for the players to try to solve, in which case you may want the rewards to be hidden because the votes are deliberately unbalanced and the "reward" for the players solving the puzzle is the best outcome. Other times, however, such as this most recent vote the vote is a simple directional indicator, and adding information about the intended direction (such as through highlighting the Concept that will be developed) can be helpful for elaborating on QM intent. Or, of course, sometimes votes are literally just about what reward you want, or what cultivation you want to do.

All of these have to be managed carefully. If all votes are uncertain and unknown, then they lose their impact and people may just feel like voting is pointless because we have no grounds on which to make any of our decisions. Puzzle votes require the player base to be well informed about what they are working with, and what the MC will do as a result of their vote. This often benefits a lot from a more active QM presence in thread to answer questions, and make sure that their intent is clearly communicated. Such votes have often been problematic in Forge because yrs is more hands off as a QM, and we often just know very little about both the world, and indeed what LQ will actually do. Strategy votes have generally been the strongest implementation of this because the one thing we do generally have a very strong grasp on (indeed, due to the time we spend, often stronger than the QM) is what Ling Qi's combat toolkit is, and this gives us a lot to work with.

The most recent vote however wasn't really any of these things. It was really more of an indicator vote about the direction of the next update, which is perfectly valid. One could try to attack it purely from an IC perspective, but this runs into problems with the limitations of the quest format. It is not, say, a vote on LQ's reflections on philosophy and what connclusions she's drawn, or what her position is. Instead it was just a prompt to continue a conversation. A conversation we are not actually carrying out ourselves. Rather, from that initial question yrs develops the rest of the conversation and where it goes throughout the update. Trying to manage it from a purely in-character philosophy pov would be problematic as we don't actually have the control needed to engage with it on those terms! Instead, giving us an indication of where he intends to take the conversation with the Concepts is arguably the best way to communicate what the vote is actually about. A lot of meta-narrative elements in votes do kind of exist due to limitations like this. Trying to simulate all character interaction is deeply problematic for telling a good story, but this does mean that we have to engage with the artificiality of the quest structure to some degree.
 
I'm not sure if Li Suyin is from that Li; although it would be fantastic and make the whole road problem much easier to solve if she was. We're the "South Emerald Seas Ling Clan" because there are other Ling Clans out there somewhere, I assume it's the same kind of thing going on here.
no, see. Remember in Forge when Li Suyin was all anxious about telling us about forbidden Arts she'd inherited from the grandfather on her mom's side?

Her Dad's side is a Li Clan. Her mother's side had an ancestor who had his Dantian shattered as punishment for a crime, and the flesh sculpting Arts that Li Suyin had with her were Li Clan Arts. Like. It's really convenient, because her Dad (and her direct family) are an unrelated Li clan.

but yeah. She told us about Li Clan Arts and our response was "yo that seems powerful, if a bit out of grasp right now. Seems like you'll be able to make use of them later c:"
without judging about the whole, you know, flesh sculpting thing
 
Turn 13:Arc 8-3
Mist curled among the reeds among the muddy waters.The sound of chirping crickets and buzzing insects filled the fen, and two cultivators faced off across the sluggishly flowing waters. The simulated environment of the match seemed pulled from the northwest of the province. A slight advantage for Xio Fen, Ling Qi mused.

Truly, the sect was still forced to play a careful balancing game, with so many interests in the tournament. Below, Xiao Fen proffered a polite and formal bow to her opponents, the loose black silk of her gown rustling in the wind. No words were traded, naturally. Between the quiet viper and the mute tiger, what words needed to be spoken.

"Feeling poetic huh," Sixiang chuckled.

Han Fang returned the bow, and shrugged off the sand colored tunic he wore, bearing a muscular chest. The air shimmered, and the jade head of a warhammer slapped into his palm. Han Fang grinned fiercely, challenge clear in his stance.

Xiao Fen was not so obvious, but Ling Qi caught a small smile playing about her lips as she took a combat stance, hands held as stiff and straight as blades.

"Xiao Fen is very expressive," Lao Keung commented idly.

"Something I have encouraged in her," Bai Meizhen replied, offering no explanation.

Han Fang's chest swelled with a deep breath, and a roar shattered the stillness of the fen, wood shattered, mud flew, water was blown away in expanding circle some ten meters wide, and Xiao Fen leapt back, allowing the wind to carry her away from the blast wave. She landed atop the roots of a young banyan tree, crouched and ready.

Han Fang was gone.

In the audience, Ling Qi caught a flash of his movement among the tree tops, using the branches to avoid the muck and water below. He twisted the wind like a cloak around himself, deflecting light to become nigh invisible. She saw too the shadow slipping away from him stepping shadow and vanishing. How familiar.

Xiao Fen paused only a moment on the roots of the tree before leaping gracefully back down to a sandbar which emerged from the churning waters. Her hands wove through a brief kata as black flames bloomed on her gown, burning upward, into a eight pointed crown. Eight golden lights bloomed in the darkness.

"The Vermin Extermination Stance?" Xia Anxi mused.

"She asked which branch of family arts she should pursue. I intend for her to remain at my side," Bai Meizhen said. "Appropriate that she took a bodyguards art."
"A blunt name for an art. Aren't they usually a bit more poetic?" Ling Qi wondered.

The Bai men shared an unsure look. Meizhen answered, smiling. "The great Yao was a straightforward man. It is said he invented this art during Grandmother Serpent's trials, when she set him the duty of preventing her sleep from being disturbed by parasites."

"Ah," Ling Qi said, having nothing further to say.

Trails of dark fire followed Xiao Fen's hands as she slowly turned, Ling Qi could feel pulses of qi rippling out from each of the 'eyes', brushing over the environment, likely forminga detailed map in the girls mind's eye. Ling Qi could feel the ember that clung on to every living thing it touched, from the smallest fly to the largest tree.

The air broke with thunder as a jade blur whipped through the air. Xiao fen's hand snapped out, shattering the hammer mid spin into motes of green qi. The blast of impact ruffled her hair and tore at her gown. A second hammer flew, and a third, and a fourth. Xiao Fen's arms blurred.

The fen shook, and the light and sound was such that Ling Qi almost missed the zig zagging shadow slipping among the reeds.

There was a tremendous crack, and a roar.

When the debris cleared, she saw Xiao Fen, having spun around. She saw the black tiger, caught mid pounce, with Xiao Fen's slim hands grasping the beast's front legs. An ugly scorch march burned away part of her dress, exposing a shoulder badly bruised by the impact of a hammer. The tiger's fangs hovered just millimeters from Xiao Fen's blank face.

There were three ugly cracks in the space of a second as Xiao Fen drove forward and slammed her forehead into the bewildered tigers snout, before a narrow knee rammed into the beasts open belly and triggered a yowl of pain as black fire lanced out of the beasts back.

"...Pragmatic, yes. Mighty Yao was most pragmatic," Xia Anxi muttered.

The banyan trees shook, branches whipping and leaves tearing off as a rain of spinning green lights crashed down where they stood. The crown of jewel like eyes on Xiao Fen's head flashed brightly.

When the debris cleared, the tiger was gone, slipped away back into the grass, and the sandbar Xiao fen had stood on was gone, leaving her standing atop the choppy waters. The sleeves of her gown were shredded and her hands lightly scorched, her fingers bruised. She was otherwise unharmed. Xiao Fen began to walk toward the copse of trees, her steps slow and deliberate.

Ling Qi's eyes found Han Fang in the trees, a grimace on his face. She could tell that whatever art allowed him to produce those explosive copies of his talisman it did not come cheap on qi. He was spending more than Xiao Fen was, and the damage she had taken wasn't slowing her down at all. His tiger she found hidden among a root system, guts churning with toxic fire qi, looking much worse for the wear. They were on a timer now.

"Han Fang is superior in power, but the efficiency of his techniques still lacks somewhat," Cai Renxiang said thoughtfully. "And his reserves are below average. It seems something had to give in his cultivation."

"Time is the greatest enemy, as well as the last one," Lao Keung chuckled.

"Whatever else might be said, our Black Vipers are efficient souls," Bai Meizhen said without inflection.

Ling Qi saw the moment Han Fang made his decision, in silent communication with his beast. She felt his grip on the wind loosen and tighten all at once, whirling cutting wind garbing his body and limbs like a fine robe. His skin reddened, droplets of moisture and embers of fire forming hissing steam around his hands and hammer.

He had taken the argent arts quite far it seemed.

The tree he stood on shattered as did the three others that lay between him and Xiao Fen. At the last moment, the girl spun her hands stabbing forward to meet the trailing edge of the blast wave… and split it apart.

They met there amidst the trees, dozens of blows traded in a moment, they danced around one another with intricate footwork that tore the ground and spit up dust with every step. Twirling hammer met flame shrouded hands countless times.

Ling Qi saw moments of impact, Xiao Fen's arm bending unnaturally before snapping back into place with a flex of muscle, a bloom of blood on her gown as ribs broke under impact. But the girl never cried out, her expression never even changed, and every blow Han Fang struck left him out of position as a hand struck out, fingers stabbing into flesh, an elbow smashing his nose, a hard kick twisting his knee and breaking his stance. Every strike leaving a burning cyst of toxic fire qi under his skin.

From the scrub around them there was a roar, and the black tiger joined the dance, visibly slowed by poison, but with two against one, for a minute it seemed as if Xiao Fen would be overwhelmed. Ling Qi saw Bai Meizhen wince out of the corner of her eye as Xiao Fen's whole body tensed, and her eyes went black.

"Vermin Annihilating Breath. Honestly. It is just a tournament," Meizhen said, sighing.

"Even a Xiao has their pride it seems," Lao Keung said.

Ling Qi squinted and felt the change in the younger girls qi. The moment when every one of her meridians flooded with toxic black qi and even the breath in her lungs turned to something sickly and poisonous.Xiao Fen exhaled, and the world around her withered. The tiger yowled in rage and pain pulling back as the fur on its outstretched paws crisped and burned off razor sharp claws crumbling like chalk, and Han Fang leapt back as black flames began to lick his skin.

Xiao Fen blurred.

Ling Qi counted thirty two strikes before the match ending gong sounded.

She leaned back in her seat as the arena deactivated and Xiao Fen fell to one knee, blood trickling from her nose. She'd have to tease the girl for straining herself like that. She knew the girl appreciated it, even if she pretended not too.

"Pfft, that's what you choose to lie to yourself about?" Sixiang snorted.

***​

They parted ways with the Bai delegation as usual following the closing of the tournament. Ling Qi's afternoon was free, though this evening she and Cai Renxiang were going to attend another gathering of the Duchess, this time gan Guangli would be allowed to attend. She thought that boded well for him.

For now though, she was free, and she found her way back to the crafters tourney, where she had promised to meet Suyin.

She found the girl sitting in the back rows, together with Su Ling, and surprisingly, Bao Qingling. More surprisingly,it was Su Ling and Bao Qingling who were in conversation.

"So you're sayin this is a something that's actually been studied? Like I can have a place to start?" She heard Su Ling say as she approached.

"I said it is a subject which has been proposed. Even with the current climate any public studies have been stamped out," Bao Qingling replied. The usually tense girl seemed relaxed, at least for her, which was roughly normal behavior for anyone else. "I would suggest you keep any such project to yourself."

"Ugh, fine," Su ling grumbled. Her ears twitched and she noticed Ling Qi."Done schmoozing already huh?"

"You're never done schmoozing," Ling Qi said primly. "You'll learn soon."

Su Ling huffed irritably, Bao Qingling snorted. Li Suyin covered her mouth with her hand. Ling Qi took up a seat on the other side of Su Ling, frowning as she noticed something missing.

"Oh, Suyin, your eye!" Ling Qi exclaimed, swiftly lowering her voice. "When…?"

Her friend turned to face her smiling. For the first time in over a year, she met Ling Qi's gaze with both of her eyes. There was still some faint scarring around the one which had been ruined, but save for a slight metallic gleam in the iris, it looked wholly natural.

"Just before the tournament," Li Suyin said happily.

"You were ready a month ago, you were dithering," Bao Qingling said bluntly, crossing her arms.

Li Suyin looked sheepish. "...Maybe."

"I'm just happy you were able to do it," Ling Qi said. It felt good to see one of her friends overcome something that had hurt them for so long."So, what were we talking about?"

"Was looking into some self surgery methods," Su Ling said. "Been feeling an itch lately."

She glanced down at the twin brown tails wrapped awkwardly around her waist. Ling Qi took a moment to realize what she was talking about. Su Ling must have felt she was going to grow another tail soon.

"Removing spirit blood is a controversial subject, which I was advising this junior sister of," Bao Qingling drawled.

Li Suyin looked a little troubled. "I don't think it's necessary, Su Ling. You've carved out your own path already, haven't you?"

"Hmph, letting the accidents of birth hold you back is wrong. We are cultivators. Cut away what you do not want or need," Bao Qingling said with a shrug.

Ling Qi frowned.

[] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?

[] If Su Ling truly desired to rid herself of her mother's traits, so be it. She hoped Su Ling would be careful and seek advice and help if she was going to undertake such a project though.
 
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Li Suyin looked a little troubled. "I don't think it's necessary, Su Ling. You've carved out your own path already, haven't you?"

"Hmph, letting the accidents of birth hold you back is wrong. We are cultivators. Cut away what you do not want or need," Bao Qingling said with a shrug.

Ling Qi frowned.
Oooh. :o

Yeah, that... that-ness.

I... kinda feel like the choice I would have been happiest with is "pay more attention to Su Ling before it came to this point."

But people should be able to choose what they are.

This is probably a subject the Cai have some familiarity with, thinking about it. Which means Ling Qi is probably gating that help and advice.
 
[X] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?
 
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That was a pretty cool fight.

[] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?

Inclined towards this one tbh. I feel it's more in line with ours and LQ's attitudes, and if Su Ling disagrees... well, honestly many of our best and most insightful conversations with Su Ling have been her disagreeing with us? Kind of a plus if anything.
 
[] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?

Definitely voting this.
I think Su Ling is too harsh on her spirit blood.
 
[] If Su Ling truly desired to rid herself of her mother's traits, so be it. She hoped Su Ling would be careful and seek advice and help if she was going to undertake such a project though.

Personally as a trans woman, I find it hard to judge a girl for wanting a bit of surgery.
 
The issue is complex.

But ultimately it's up to Su Ling.

She's not exactly looking for a sanity-check here, we're just volunteering a judgement on her plans?
 
Yeah I'm definitely leaning option one. Though I wonder if Su Ling believes that her mom can use that connection against her.

Either way this is about Qi giving advice so I think it's more in character for her to go option 1, but I don't fault Su Ling for having body dysmorphia and wanting to fix that for herself.

Anyways the XF HF fight was really cool she really had to strain herself. Close match.
 
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[] If Su Ling truly desired to rid herself of her mother's traits, so be it. She hoped Su Ling would be careful and seek advice and help if she was going to undertake such a project though.

We've had it laid out quite plainly by a prism. Cultivation is as much about what you cut away as it is about what you keep. With her spirit blood she's going to keep growing closer to something she despises as a core and fundamental part of her being. Being a cultivator is about deciding who you are, and clearly Su Ling wants absolutely no part of her blood. Better to cut it away now than integrate it into unsteady foundations.

Fostering hesitation and doubt here does no favors to our friend, and it's fundamentally her choice not something anyone is pushing her into.
 
[] If Su Ling truly desired to rid herself of her mother's traits, so be it. She hoped Su Ling would be careful and seek advice and help if she was going to undertake such a project though.

This too is freedom, choosing your blood. The Cai could almost certainly help with this, given what we've seen of the Tailor.
 
[] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?

Would rather not have Su Ling continue with the same mindset that had her hurting herself during her yellow breakthrough, as this is a choice that is driven by the same hatred for her mother. She is letting her mothers action rule her own in this case.
 
This discussion is going to be interesting. LQ ran away from her mother because she didn't feel safe there, but later reconnected with her; Su Ling was abandoned by her mother and wants to kill her; Bao Qingling could never connect to her family and doesn't care about them; and Li Suyin actually has a good relationship with her family and wants them to be happy.

This is going to be the widest array of advice that Su Ling could get on the subject without calling in scholars who study the effects of spirit blood.
 
Mmm, looking at the other option... like, while LQ understands trauma, she uses it to drive herself towards more power instead. We integrated FVM for a reason there. I think that you could make a case for it through the lens of her being pro "doing what makes you happy". But, she also sees happiness as being based on having as much power as needed to achieve your goals. Sacrificing power is somewhat questionable...

Though we did just do a little bit of that in Hanyi's arc...



There's also potential connections to Shenhua's whole "Be yourself" thing and her experiences meeting Lin Hai etc., though I'm not sure how much she's thought on those.

I just thought of another angle here however that could change up everything. @yrsillar: how has Su Ling's fox blood been affecting her cultivation here? I know she was running into some problems last year with element mismatch... but she is also getting good use out of her divination arts. How much benefit is she getting from her spiritblood at this point? Could removing it be a positive or a negative from a cultivation standpoint? Could LQ be convinced that this is #Optimal?
 
The way I would like Ling Qi to advise her on it would be something along these lines.

"Do you hate it because of it's link to your Mother, or do you hate it because it's wrong for you."

"Because letting someone else define how you take your cultivation is a good way to find yourself being miserable, I wouldn't throw it out entirely unless I hated it for itself, and not because of its connection to something you do hate."

But I'm not Ling Qi.
 
[] Su Ling was doing well already, she had already turned her blood to her own purposes. Why waste something you had already stolen? Wasn't it a better revenge to use your enemy's tools against them?

I'm going to vote for this option. I feel like she can get more for her buck by using what she already has then spending time trying to get rid of it.
 
[] If Su Ling truly desired to rid herself of her mother's traits, so be it. She hoped Su Ling would be careful and seek advice and help if she was going to undertake such a project though.

bleh don't like this but she's had long enough and as a cultivator its important to be true to who you want to be. If she's really going to remove this part of her at least let it be done safely.
 
Su Ling huffed irritably, Bao Qingling snorted. Li Suyin covered her mouth with her hand. Ling Qi took up a seat on the other side of Su Ling, frowning as she noticed something missing.

"Oh, Suyin, your eye!" Ling Qi exclaimed, swiftly lowering her voice. "When…?"

Her friend turned to face her smiling. For the first time in over a year, she met Ling Qi's gaze with both of her eyes. There was still some faint scarring around the one which had been ruined, but save for a slight metallic gleam in the iris, it looked wholly natural.

"Just before the tournament," Li Suyin said happily.

"You were ready a month ago, you were dithering," Bao Qingling said bluntly, crossing her arms.

Li Suyin looked sheepish. "...Maybe."

"I'm just happy you were able to do it," Ling Qi said. It felt good to see one of her friends overcome something that had hurt them for so long."So, what were we talking about?"
Everyone else is discussing Su Ling's decision to remove fox spirit blood. Meanwhile I'm here overjoyed at Suyin getting her eye back :D
 
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