Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Aranfan]

Ling Qi certainly didn't have the luxury of being allowed selfishness. No, that impulse must be smacked down as hard as possible, yrsillar must rebuke any identity or person or idea of self outside selflessness and nonself. Obviously readers too must always consider the eternity outside of themselves when voting on FoD, even though that rolling plain extends outward forever. Yrsillar does not allow selfishness in decisionmaking, whether for Ling Qi or for me. What's wrong with selfishness? Persons are more than a set of conscious personal traits. Cultivators cut away personhood to hone the self. So in FoD, under the Bloody Moon's aegis of all places, why can't they make decisions for their self's own sake?

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There is more to the self than greed, or utility maximization, or "self-interest", or whatever you want to call it. Ling Qi's arc thus far has been to reconcile being a greedy girl with wanting to not throw other people under the bus for her own advancement/survival. That was a significant chunk of the first thread. The second bit is as much Ling Qi's "self" as the first bit.

 

[tricholysis]

This? She bailed out on this:

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What's wrong with survival? Ling Qi says she wants to survive. But then for acting in that self-sake yrsillar punishes. Ling Qi has multiple desires at any point in time. What's wrong with survival being the one that wins?

 

[Peter87]

The words, asking that the king instead spare the person she had brought with her, died without ceremony in her throat. Could she really afford to risk herself in the face of this kind of power? Even if she was insulated from death in this dream, mere injury could spell out ruin. She was confident that she could maintain her pace, keep up with her liege and fulfill her goals. Everything seemed to indicate that she was right, her cultivation over the past month had gone smoothly, swiftly pushing her toward the second step of the green realm and mastery of her arts. With this dream things hand pressing down on her shoulder and his nails digging into her skin, it forced her to remember how fragile that position was. Could she really risk that for the sake of someone she was just barely getting to know?

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Fantastic update, also GM was reading Meta discussion in the thread

"The blessing of Fang," she whispered. The words tasted like rot on her tongue, like spoiled food dug out of the trash in hungry desperation. Surely she thought, if this was one of her real friends, the ones who had helped her get through the whole of last year, she wouldn't have hesitated at all. Sure she would, some bitter part of her whispered. Had she really changed at all? Or had she merely been lucky not to have her resolve truly tested.

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What I believe hit Ling Qi hardest wasn't her lack of conviction or violence against civilians it was taking choice between her (potential) friend safeness and her own.

 

[Aranfan]

What's wrong with survival? Ling Qi says she wants to survive. But then for acting in that self-sake yrsillar punishes. Ling Qi has multiple desires at any point in time. What's wrong with survival being the one that wins?

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Because Ling Qi doesn't want to be that person anymore.

That's what's wrong with it. Ling Qi hates the stuff she has done in the name of bare survival, and the kind of person that those circumstances made her be. She has spend the entire previous story arc trying to stop being that kind of person. There is nothing wrong with it in and of itself, but it is wrong to the kind of person Ling Qi wants to be. Thus it is wrong for her.

 

[Katreus]

What's wrong with survival? Ling Qi says she wants to survive. But then for acting in that self-sake yrsillar punishes. Ling Qi has multiple desires at any point in time. What's wrong with survival being the one that wins?

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"The blessing of Fang," she whispered. The words tasted like rot on her tongue, like spoiled food dug out of the trash in hungry desperation. Surely she thought, if this was one of her real friends, the ones who had helped her get through the whole of last year, she wouldn't have hesitated at all. Sure she would, some bitter part of her whispered. Had she really changed at all? Or had she merely been lucky not to have her resolve truly tested.

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Because Ling Qi doesn't like that person and just spent a year trying to claw herself away from being that person.

 

[Timewinders]

Mmm, I would say it wasn't about that.

Rather, the issue here is that Ling Qi didn't do what she desired.

That's what's making her unhappy.

She wasn't actually being tested on friendship and selflessness here either. Rather what got tested in the end was whether or not she actually knew what her desires were and had the conviction to pursue them. Instead she immediately folded at the fear of potential danger.

This? She bailed out on this:

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No, Ling Qi's true first desire is self-preservation, which she acted on because she wants to live. Her only mistake is not being able to accept that truth about herself because she's ashamed of her past and is now over-correcting to the point that she feels bad about protecting herself. Despite being "selfish" in wanting to protect herself, she is still more selfless than most of the characters in this setting. She made a difficult choice but didn't actually do anything wrong, no matter how much anyone tries to gaslight her about it. I hope she doesn't start becoming so altruistic that she's repeatedly risking her life for acquaintances and strangers. There are plenty of ways to do good without risking anyone's life.

I think that's something Ling Qi is going to have to work through, yes. The line at which Ling Qi is willing to risk her life should shift, but maybe not enough to be willing to risk her life in the dream situation, or maybe she talks to someone about how to give herself more options in such a situation. I'm not saying Ling Qi is badwrong for choosing a less risky option, just that she chose in a way that she herself wasn't happy with, that she herself condemned as being the same as something she wanted to move away from. The BM didn't put those thoughts in Qi's head.

If you filter out Ling Qi and Sixiang and look at just what the BM herself says, she presents her case neutrally and without judgment. She doesn't say that humans produce meaning as if the meaning humans attribute is fake, she says that it's human duty to produce meaning which is an entirely different reading. She doesn't revel in the slaughter like Ling Qi all but accuses her of, she just neutrally claims that vengeance alone is life for life and can be no greater than that. I really don't see any case for the bloody moon to have wronged Ling Qi in some way. If anything, the Bloody Moon just passed judgment on the slaughter itself. Separating that from Qi's visceral reaction is necessary to understand what the BM is saying.

The real villain is the old king of the forest and the old traditions of the land that encourage wanton slaughter disguised as appropriate retribution.

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It's not Bloody Moon's judgement alone that makes her the villain, it's that it occurs in the context of her forcing Ling Qi to make a sadistic choice and then judging her on the results. The king is at fault too but he's probably dead by now. This was BM's simulation so it's not like the king, who is not real, can be at fault.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

You aren't pretending this is a success tho. Or that it is anything but a failure.

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Oh I do think this is a success. From the perspective of what I want, why I voted, and what I'm aiming towards, it was a success. I'm saying that other voters have their own metrics by which this outcome is also a success.

This approach *really* bugs me. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to vote that way, because you are, but it still bugs me.

It may sound strange coming from me - after all, just last update I was saying that I was hoping LQ would fail. But there is a difference between hoping for something as a reader and voting for it as a player - and the idea of voting for something with the intent of it harming our protag feels like ash in my mouth, even if the outcome would be interesting or entertaining.

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That is more than fair, and from an intellectual point I can even understand it.

I can't remember the exact quote, and I can't find my copy of the text, but a line from early on in Ender's Game has always stuck with me. Hyruff Gram, the Drill Sergeant Nasty of the book, explains to one of his co-workers that he doesn't like breaking the Battle School kids down, but he does it so that he can see them build themselves back up. That's what got me into writing, and when it comes to situations like the one we had here, I try to look forward and ask 'how will the character build themself up from this?'

Still, my sympathy and I can tell you right now you are justified to taste that ash.

 

[065tdsa]

The real problem here is that Ling Qi was actually honestly afraid, as though this was all real. She needs a serious class on how dream stuff works because getting caught out like that must never happen again, if some up-jumped illusion can make her lose track of what is and isn't real then she's going to actually lose to a real foe due to that (a real Green can easily beat you if you only have eyes for the fake White in the room). Sixiang will hopefully provide that along with some other help.

 

[Kai Merah]

The real problem here is that Ling Qi was actually honestly afraid, as though this was all real. She needs a serious class on how dream stuff works because getting caught out like that must never happen again, if some up-jumped illusion can make her lose track of what is and isn't real then she's going to actually lose to a real foe due to that (a real Green can easily beat you if you only have eyes for the fake White in the room). Sixiang will hopefully provide that along with some other help.

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Arguably, that's the problem. Voters were treating this like a simulation, but Ling Qi was getting slammed for her choices like they were real.

I don't think the solution is "teach Ling Qi not to be affected by simulations". Rather, it's us the voters that should be treating all simulations as real.

 

[Aranfan]

The real problem here is that Ling Qi was actually honestly afraid, as though this was all real. She needs a serious class on how dream stuff works because getting caught out like that must never happen again, if some up-jumped illusion can make her lose track of what is and isn't real then she's going to actually lose to a real foe due to that (a real Green can easily beat you if you only have eyes for the fake White in the room). Sixiang will hopefully provide that along with some other help.

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Sixiang themself is a dream figment. I don't think they'll fall on the side of the argument you want them to.

 

[065tdsa]

Arguably, that's the problem. Voters were treating this like a simulation, but Ling Qi was getting slammed for her choices like they were real.

I don't think the solution is "teach Ling Qi not to be affected by simulations". Rather, it's us the voters that should be treating all simulations as real.

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Except simulations are not real. Sixiang in particular is a dream spirit so they'd dispute that, but they still would ultimately admit that simulations have limits and, for example, the King of the Forest was never going to kill us, even as a simulated White. Even if he'd killed us in the dream we wouldn't have died because of the limitations of the thing itself.

Ling Qi needs to learn not to be as afraid of simulations as of the real thing or a cultivator that uses simulations will pelt her with figments of real beings and thoroughly take advantage of her misconception.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

It's not Bloody Moon's judgement alone that makes her the villain, it's that it occurs in the context of her forcing Ling Qi to make a sadistic choice and then judging her on the results.

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There wasn't a judgment, man. At least, none other than "okay you aren't suited to follow me". I said the BM looked at things neutrally, and I stand by that. Let's look at what was actually said.

"You are not one of mine."

Ling Qi's head snapped up at the sound of another voice, cold and dispassionate. In the shadow of a shattered doorway stood a figure, shrouded in black. She was unassuming, in stature, little more than a scrap of shadow amidst the graveyard. Her long black hair, matted and tangled, hung to her knees and shrouded her face, and yet, when the figure lifted her head, Ling Qi glimpsed only white bone and a burning red light in an empty eye socket.

Ling QI let out a strangled laugh that was more of a sob. It was crazy that she could recognize what this was so easily. The fear that had shackled her against the king was worn to tatters now "Why? What was this supposed to teach," she snarled at the Bloody Moon, rising to her knees as she shouted at the spirit, her restraint long fled. "What was the point?!"

"There isn't one," She heard Sixiang mutter bitterly in her ear. "Sorry Ling Qi." To her surprise, she felt their slender arms wrap around her shoulders. Were they still in a dream then? "I failed, I didn't see this bitch's fingerprints all over this until too late."

For her part, the Bloody Moon was unperturbed by the rudeness either of them had showed. "You have been coddled child, if you imagine that all or even most things hold a native purpose. It is the duty of humankind to forge meaning from the blind mechanics of the world."

Ling Qi shuddered in impotent anger. She could still taste blood in her mouth, see the faces of the dying in her mind. She could still see the terrible viridian light shining forth from the keep as an horned corpse had been flung from the broken battlements while greenery consumed the survivors. Roots and flowers and crawler vines erupting from everywhere, tearing and….

She took a shaking breath to control herself, resting a hand on Sixiang's. "Please, no cryptic speech," she began clenching her teeth. "What do you want?"

The burning red light in the spirit's eye socket flickered, and she raised a hand, wet and red with blood to cup her jaw. "I wished to inform you that there would be no further offers. You are not one of mine."

"I'm glad," Ling Qi spat, before she could even think about it. "If this is yours." The graveyard looked back at her, empty and stinking of rot.

The Bloody Moon stared at her, but Ling Qi was too exhausted to feel fear at the ominous weight that her gaze held. She could feel Sixiang's arms tighten around her shoulders.

"Vengeance is blood washed away with blood," the spirit replied, skull vanishing behind black tresses as she turned away. "This is its true form, the only ending it can ever bring. Vengeance is the claw lashing out in pain, the bloodied fist crushing a foes skull to paste in the throes of grief, before its owner is slain in turn."

Yet as the great spirit stepped into the shadows, she looked back, and beneath her tangled tresses, Ling Qi saw not a skull, but the face of a steely eyed matron of stern and unforgiving countenance. "Justice is something only humans can define. If you disapprove, then do not merely complain. It is such a troublesome mantle your kind have saddled me with."

Ling Qi closed her eyes, she just… didn't have the energy to decipher what the spirit was trying to say right now.

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So to translate a bit:

Most things don't have an innate purpose.
Humankind has a duty to derive meaning from the purposeless world.
There will be no further offers.
The end result of vengeance is always pain and death.
The mantle humans have given her is retributive justice, but in order for pain and death to be justified humans must define what is just.


At no point here does the BM find Ling Qi's actions or beliefs wanting. The closest she comes is a flat statement that she won't be offering her mantle, which makes sense as Ling Qi doesn't seem suited to it, but we already knew that. She just calmly explains that the events of the dream were pure vengeance, life for a life. She doesn't approve of the slaughter, in fact, she implies that if Ling Qi believes it to be unjust or wrong, it would be okay to give it that meaning. I just don't see how she's cast as a villain if you look at her own words.

 

[Erebeal]

Arguably, that's the problem. Voters were treating this like a simulation, but Ling Qi was getting slammed for her choices like they were real.

I don't think the solution is "teach Ling Qi not to be affected by simulations". Rather, it's us the voters that should be treating all simulations as real.

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Eh, I would say the issue really came down to us Hidden Mooning the Bloody Moon.

We/Ling Qi were going in there to find out interesting secrets and get cool loot.

Instead things got super dark and real and Ling Qi ended up somewhere she didn't really want to be.

And to make things worse when she get to the end and find out the final secret (the purpose) BM is all "yeah, that's really up to you. Life has no inherent meaning".

 

[Timewinders]

There wasn't a judgment, man. At least, none other than "okay you aren't suited to follow me". I said the BM looked at things neutrally, and I stand by that. Let's look at what was actually said.


So to translate a bit:

Most things don't have an innate purpose.
Humankind has a duty to derive meaning from the purposeless world.
There will be no further offers.
The end result of vengeance is always pain and death.
The mantle humans have given her is retributive justice, but in order for pain and death to be justified humans must define what is just.


At no point here does the BM find Ling Qi's actions or beliefs wanting. The closest she comes is a flat statement that she won't be offering her mantle, which makes sense as Ling Qi doesn't seem suited to it, but we already knew that. She just calmly explains that the events of the dream were pure vengeance, life for a life. She doesn't approve of the slaughter, in fact, she implies that if Ling Qi believes it to be unjust or wrong, it would be okay to give it that meaning. I just don't see how she's cast as a villain if you look at her own words.

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Uh, how about BM is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream world where she was tormented against her will? You keep focusing on the judgement and ignoring that part. Sixiang would probably have warned LQ if they had any way of knowing what Bloody Moon was playing at. From Sixiang's comment, BM already has a terrible reputation for good reason.

 

[Axel Fones]

Uh, how about BM is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream world where she was tormented against her will? You keep focusing on the judgement and ignoring that part. Sixiang would probably have warned LQ if they had any way of knowing what Bloody Moon was playing at. From Sixiang's comment, BM already has a terrible reputation for good reason.

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We walked into the Dream of our own free will lol. We didn't get tricked by anyone.

 

[065tdsa]

Uh, how about BM is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream world where she was tormented against her will? You keep focusing on the judgement and ignoring that part. Sixiang would probably have warned LQ if they had any way of knowing what Bloody Moon was playing at. From Sixiang's comment, BM already has a terrible reputation for good reason.

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Sixiang tried to warn us pretty much the second we stepped in and was blocked, presumably because the second we got in the dream she figured out who was running it. So you'd be correct in that account. Honestly if this had happened anywhere off the sect grounds, the correct response to getting our friendly spirit advisor silenced would have been to GTFO and come back with more reinforcements.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Uh, how about BM is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream world where she was tormented against her will? You keep focusing on the judgement and ignoring that part. Sixiang would probably have warned LQ if they had any way of knowing what Bloody Moon was playing at. From Sixiang's comment, BM already has a terrible reputation for good reason.

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Likewise, Zeqing would be a far worse villain because she trapped Ling Qi in a trial where failing would have meant freezing to death? Xin is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream rave where failing to impress meant Ling Qi could have been out of commission for weeks? I mean, I guess.

 

[tricholysis]

There is more to the self than greed, or utility maximization, or "self-interest", or whatever you want to call it. Ling Qi's arc thus far has been to reconcile being a greedy girl with wanting to not throw other people under the bus for her own advancement/survival. That was a significant chunk of the first thread. The second bit is as much Ling Qi's "self" as the first bit.

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Because Ling Qi doesn't want to be that person anymore.

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Because Ling Qi doesn't like that person and just spent a year trying to claw herself away from being that person.

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Why can't Ling Qi ever make a decision out of self-concern ever again, just because she said she wouldn't one time when she was a kid not even Green yet? No, now she must forever more become self-sacrificing and unfearful, never making decisions for her own sake and only ever deciding on moral bases disconnected from reality...

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Yeah, so what? People can act with more than one face. That's part of growing up. You don't have to be a scene kid all the time, you can just be a person who likes scene stuff and also guns and preppy yoga classes and whatever books strike your fancy. Trying to adhere to a single type or action might be consistent but it's no more true to yourself than a gay man repressing for the sake of being consistent with his religion.

The self is so expansive and varied that cutting it down into archetypes and mantles that you have to wear is necessary. Cultivation is cutting away and expanding out. It's a mystic contradiction that contains everything and nothing. Following the Way, the Dao: That which can be reasoned is not reason. The name that can be named is not the Name. You cannot remove a part of yourself to cultivate your self but to cultivate your self you must pick and choose parts of yourself. Survival is a part of Ling Qi, as it's a part of every living thing. There's nothing wrong with that and Ling Qi making a meaning otherwise is Ling Qi wronging herself.

 

[Erebeal]

Yeah, so what? People can act with more than one face. That's part of growing up. You don't have to be a scene kid all the time, you can just be a person who likes scene stuff and also guns and preppy yoga classes and whatever books strike your fancy. Trying to adhere to a single type or action might be consistent but it's no more true to yourself than a gay man repressing for the sake of being consistent with his religion.

The self is so expansive and varied that cutting it down into archetypes and mantles that you have to wear is necessary. Cultivation is cutting away and expanding out. It's a mystic contradiction that contains everything and nothing. Following the Way, the Dao: That which can be reasoned is not reason. The name that can be named is not the Name. You cannot remove a part of yourself to cultivate but to cultivate you must pick and choose parts of yourself. Survival is a part of Ling Qi, as it's a part of every living thing. There's nothing wrong with that and Ling Qi making a meaning otherwise is Ling Qi wronging herself.

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Yes. She has multiple desires and as she percieved things in this instance they were in conflict and she couldn't resolve them happily.

 

[minimap_op]

You know for all I feel like the people pissed at the Bloody Moon are over-reacting... If this whole thing wasn't meant to be a trial and had no real point or intent other than what you give it... Why the hell was Sixiang blocked from talking to Ling Qi? What was the impetus behind that? Because if we take the Bloody Moon at it's word it shouldn't have had any reason to block Sixiang off like that.

 

[Timewinders]

We walked into the Dream of our own free will lol. We didn't get tricked by anyone.

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Which Ling Qi wouldn't have done if Sixiang had known about BM's involvement and told her that the dream would probably be extremely unpleasant. Ling Qi was expecting something like the last simulation, an unpleasant war. Not literally getting turned into a rat and forced to experience murdering innocent people (albeit sim ones).

Likewise, Zeqing would be a far worse villain because she trapped Ling Qi in a trial where failing would have meant freezing to death? Xin is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream rave where failing to impress meant Ling Qi could have been out of commission for weeks? I mean, I guess.

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Well, they're not good people. Zeqing is a murderer remember, she killed her prior lover. I didn't like Xin's antics with the dream rave either. So far I have not liked any of the spirit characters except Zhengui and Sixiang (and even then only after Sixiang got character development due to more contact with humans, she was really annoying at first). They're like the Fae from mythology. Sometimes you have to deal with them, but ultimately they're untrustworthy, don't understand informed consent, and often lack empathy. Going out of your way to interact with them when there's no real need is foolish.

 

[Erebeal]

You know for all I feel like the people pissed at the Bloody Moon are over-reacting... If this whole thing wasn't meant to be a trial and had no real point or intent other than what you give it... Why the hell was Sixiang blocked from talking to Ling Qi? What was the impetus behind that? Because if we take the Bloody Moon at it's word it shouldn't have had any reason to block Sixiang off like that.

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Yeah, the only thing I can think of is that they were just curious about what we'd do in the dream, but they didn't have any specific purpose or test in mind.

Which Ling Qi wouldn't have done if Sixiang had known about BM's involvement and told her that the dream would probably be extremely unpleasant. Ling Qi was expecting something like the last simulation, an unpleasant war. Not literally getting turned into a rat and forced to experience murdering innocent people (albeit sim ones).

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Yeah, but, to be fair: we could have avoided that. We deliberately chose to meet the King despite predicting this as one of the most likely outcomes.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Ling Qi certainly didn't have the luxury of being allowed selfishness. No, that impulse must be smacked down as hard as possible, yrsillar must rebuke any identity or person or idea of self outside selflessness and nonself.

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But we have been allowed selfishness. We've never been asked to share our cultivation assets with a friend, nor give up cultivation time to help someone. We were never asked to help out the mortal boy after Disappearances & Investigations, nor did we ever suffer in return for the complete disregard with which we treat those outside our monkeysphere.

 

[065tdsa]

Likewise, Zeqing would be a far worse villain because she trapped Ling Qi in a trial where failing would have meant freezing to death? Xin is a villain because she tricked Ling Qi into a dream rave where failing to impress meant Ling Qi could have been out of commission for weeks? I mean, I guess.

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Zeqing gave so many warnings. As in, all the warnings except the last one, which she should have given but still, spirit of cold and death. We knew each other for how long again, and there was never any attempt at hiding just what she was. Ling Qi grew way too comfortable with her regardless, but that can be said to be completely her own fault.

We literally came this close to jumping into her mouth that one time Ling Qi was missing her mother, and we still got a warning.

 

[Kai Merah]

Except simulations are not real. Sixiang in particular is a dream spirit so they'd dispute that, but they still would ultimately admit that simulations have limits and, for example, the King of the Forest was never going to kill us, even as a simulated White. Even if he'd killed us in the dream we wouldn't have died because of the limitations of the thing itself.

Ling Qi needs to learn not to be as afraid of simulations as of the real thing or a cultivator that uses simulations will pelt her with figments of real beings and thoroughly take advantage of her misconception.

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I'm not saying simulations are real. I'm saying they should be treated as real because not only are they real to Ling Qi, but they're real to whoever created them too.

Now, I'm differentiating between "simulations" and "illusions", where "illusions" are things that happen in battle and need to be seen through, while "simulations" are entire dream worlds left to be a trial. We go into such simulations to gain rewards, and I think the best way of gaining such rewards is by respecting the creator of the simulation and treating the world they made so painstakingly as real. We go in there to gain real rewards, so we should behave as if there are real consequences to our actions, even if the worst that can personally happen to us is limited.

Eh, I would say the issue really came down to us Hidden Mooning the Bloody Moon.

We/Ling Qi were going in there to find out interesting secrets and get cool loot.

Instead things got super dark and real and Ling Qi ended up somewhere she didn't really want to be.

And to make things worse when she get to the end and find out the final secret (the purpose) BM is all "yeah, that's really up to you. Life has no inherent meaning".

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To be fair, if were really Hidden Mooning the trial in a serious way, like we were actually there and the world was real, I think we'd have picked the "seek knowledge" option first instead of immediately jumping on one side or the other, and from there, we would have had different choices. If we had stayed true to a conviction of "seek knowledge", I think we might have done better.

This was a disparity from the voter and Ling Qi's mindset from the beginning. In reality, would we have so cavalierly chosen to kill a stranger on another stranger's behalf? And so despite the overwhelming thread majority to fight the Prince, Ling Qi was unable to actually kill him. In retrospect, that should have been our first clue that Ling Qi was taking this trial a lot more seriously than we were.