Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Ayashi]

Maybe we should try to find solace with somebody else than Ms. BEEP BOOP TEACH ME WHAT YOU HUMONS CALL EMOTION. At least to start with.

I love CRX but wheelhouses and all that.

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Yeah, no. Trying to do therapy with/under a overemotional person is a bad idea. CRX being less emotional than a rock is a good thing for us in this case.

Obviously, the best option would be if the Sect had some psychological counselors or other help that works as therapists. When you are an organisation that's teaching teens in the middle of puberty how to (ab)use phenomenal cosmic powers to fight against monsters it's probably a "good idea" to have good therapists on hand. I mean with literally supernatural arts for it they would pretty damn effective.

 

[PrimalShadow]

because I'd really rather not have to ignore this thread because everyone's trotting out "This wasn't a perfect outcome and so you're all fucking cowards and monsters you should have Leeroyed this" arguments everywhere, I love this story too much to have to be forced out by people who can't resist trying to take some pounds of flesh for what amounts to being a setback.

Trying to make everyone feel bad about the way things shook out isn't going to make everyone play better in the future, it's just going to breed over-correction and paranoia. And we got enough of that in this event to begin with.

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Personally, I would be content with people just agreeing that this was a bad outcome.

I have no interest in assigning blame, I take no issue with the writing. All I ask is that people agree that that we could have done better.

 

[paebel]

We should talk with Ling Qingge actually. She isn't able to do a lot of things to help her daughter, but she can probably comfort her some. And one thing Ling Qi actually has a real desire for is a mother figure.

 

[Grosstoad]

Utterly annoyed that LQ's characterization backslid for what in-thread discussion state as risk-reward calculation.

Salt.

Also, Bloody Moon is vengeance. By nature, it is vengeance in blood, while recent cultivatorr culture tries to impose righteousness mantle over it to turn it into a righteous vengeance concept.

Does it include petty vengeance? Might be, but pettiness is not its main concept.

Ling Qi as she is, even of she has picked the suicide option, is still not Bloody Moon's own. She simply does not have the attachment to any larger concept: Faith, Loyalty, Duty, or such that can engender a righteous cause for vengeance.

Ling Qi only has one concept that might form a basis for the vengeance that Bloody Moon might approve: Love, and she has not lost any loved ones.

If Qingge perhaps had died under the depredation of some noble after she had left.. Or Shengui succumbed to Renshu's poison attempts... Or Meizhen taken down by Liling...

Ling Qi is not Bloody Moon as she is, and that is fine to me, and both sides acknowledge that (I don't believe the idea that BM is using the scene as petty vengeance for not worshiping, since Spirit does not require worship, but they acknowledge followers of their concept), but the backsliding?

Salt.


Still, good writing, yrs.

 

[Katreus]

It *isn't*. Like, I've was arguing on discord that the penalty is actually too weak and we won't notice it.

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Remove the boon. Note that it was a possible boon that was removed by the Bloody Moon for lacking conviction. The site is bonus to both Ling Qi and Shen Hu and the result of finding the dream. The +5 to exploration is the Shen Hu link bonus essentially.

The debuff is fine for a shaken status, but as it is, a permanent boon overshadows it entirely. So remove it on the basis that Ling Qi didn't get a passing grade by BM and its avatar, the King of the Forest.

 

[Erebeal]

Personally, I would be content with people just agreeing that this was a bad outcome.

I have no interest in assigning blame, I take no issue with the writing. All I ask is that people agree that that we could have done better.

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I disagree that this was a bad outcome. Could we have done "better"? Probably. But I don't really see this as particularly "bad" in the big picture.

 

[Alectai]

...

Is it really that important to hammer in "Each and every one of you that voted this way on that particular choice is a coward, and it is the GM's duty to rub that in as hard as they can so we--the virtuous--can feel superior about it?"

Because that's literally all that you're saying now Katreus. "I don't feel the GM supported our position--the righteous one--enough, so he should have taken away what little gains you made and made it abundantly clear that it's a punishment for missing the One True Perfect Route"

Really?

 

[Arkeus]

The big thing here is, well...


LQ went to the meeting hoping to convince the king to change his path.

"Because I need to understand, if I am to survive," the words came to her lips unbidden. "Even if I am small, my actions can affect the paths of the mighty and draw their attention."

And then promptly chickened out. Basically, she lacked conviction to see her own words through.


Edit: she was even forced into the consequences of failing to convince her 'boss' first hand.

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This is a really good point in terms of the story. Our decision in part 3 totally failed to follow through on Ling Qi's stated reasoning in part 2.

Ultimately, while we have to be careful, we can't influence people more powerful than us if we're too scared to try to convince them of anything.

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Well.. it didn't?

This was my argument at the time of the vote, and Ling Qi's stated reasoning in part 2 is divided in 2 parts:

"Because I need to understand, if I am to survive," the words came to her lips unbidden. "Even if I am small, my actions can affect the paths of the mighty and draw their attention."

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Ling Qi folded, but it still helped her understand. As such, our decision in part 3 partially failed our stated goal. And, as I argued back during the vote, baby steps. Ling Qi doesn't need to actually be able to affect the paths of the mighty just yet. She is already beginning to understand and drawing their attention.

Personally, I would be content with people just agreeing that this was a bad outcome.

I have no interest in assigning blame, I take no issue with the writing. All I ask is that people agree that that we could have done better.

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Meh, I say.

We did really well. We managed to learn some great lore, we managed to let Shen Hu have his own character arc without walking all over it, and we are beginning a good character arc for Ling Qi. Reward wise, we got a minor debuff and 3 significant buffs.

Could we have gotten more? Sure, but I'd argue that getting a BM reward might have screwed us over.

 

[PaperMache7]

...

Is it really that important to hammer in "Each and every one of you that voted this way on that particular choice is a coward, and it is the GM's duty to rub that in as hard as they can so we--the virtuous--can feel superior about it?"

Because that's literally all that you're saying now Katreus. "I don't feel the GM supported our position--the righteous one--enough, so he should have taken away what little gains you made and made it abundantly clear that it's a punishment for missing the One True Perfect Route"

Really?

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Why of course, how else are people supposed to stroke to their own virtuousness otherwise?

 

[Katreus]

We did really well. We managed to learn some great lore, we managed to let Shen Hu have his own character arc without walking all over it, and we are beginning a good character arc for Ling Qi. Reward wise, we got a minor debuff and 3 significant buffs.

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I think this is indicative that the lesson didn't really stick, and that the permanent boon significantly overshadows any potential lessons. The minor debuff and the site + Shen Hu exploration bonus should be enough of a reward, especially since Ling Qi now has a site for her Moon elemental arts and AE.

 

[Alectai]

I think this is indicative that the lesson didn't really stick, and that the permanent boon significantly overshadows any potential lessons. The minor debuff and the site + Shen Hu exploration bonus should be enough of a reward, especially since Ling Qi now has a site for her Moon elemental arts and AE.

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So then.

You are arguing that yrsillar should bait and switch just to make you feel happy that we were suitably punished for not getting the Perfect Run?

Showing off a boon just to take it away that very same update because "You didn't get a perfect run?"

Well, I feel better now, because at this point, you're either trolling or so entitled that you feel that anyone who disagrees with you should vacate the thread. Either way, it's not worth getting worked up over yo.

 

[Grigori]

It fits the mindset we've spent the last year trying to get away from.

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Yeah, maybe I underestimate Ling Qi but I don't think she's there yet. She wanted to not be alone and be able to hold onto people important to her. I'd say she's there now. If it were Meizhen or Xiulan in place of Shen Hu I'm pretty sure we'd have voted to use the boon to secure their safety.

Ling Qi wants to find more in Renxiang's talk of justice but I don't think she's at the point where she'd risk herself for acquaintances or unknown mortals, especially not illusory ones.

Personally, I would be content with people just agreeing that this was a bad outcome.

I have no interest in assigning blame, I take no issue with the writing. All I ask is that people agree that that we could have done better.

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Would the better decision just have been to vote to protect rather than receive a personal boon? I could possibly see asking to protect Shen Hu, I think asking for the mortals safety as well would be excessive though.

...

Is it really that important to hammer in "Each and every one of you that voted this way on that particular choice is a coward, and it is the GM's duty to rub that in as hard as they can so we--the virtuous--can feel superior about it?"

Because that's literally all that you're saying now Katreus. "I don't feel the GM supported our position--the righteous one--enough, so he should have taken away what little gains you made and made it abundantly clear that it's a punishment for missing the One True Perfect Route"

Really?

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No one should feel forced to participate in the discussion but I kinda think it's worth having.

 

[Ayashi]

To us there were better and kinder ways to teach this lesson. To the BM this was the best way to teach the lesson.

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To be fair, it objectively probably was. With this result the lesson is going to stick for a pretty damn long time. Short of maybe murdering one of Ling Qi's loved one there's hardly anyway this lesson could have been carved deeper.

The only issue is that it has side effects such as making Ling Qi distrust anything Blood Moon related from now on.

 

[Erebeal]

Remove the boon. Note that it was a possible boon that was removed by the Bloody Moon for lacking conviction. The site is bonus to both Ling Qi and Shen Hu and the result of finding the dream. The +5 to exploration is the Shen Hu link bonus essentially.

The debuff is fine for a shaken status, but as it is, a permanent boon overshadows it entirely. So remove it on the basis that Ling Qi didn't get a passing grade by BM and its avatar, the King of the Forest.

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That's missing my point entirely. It's not about being punished, it's that penalties should actually make a difference and be noticable in the narrative. If we get a penalty to our cultivation but we still hit all our goals with the same timing, then the penalty hasn't really done much. Now, if, say, we had to burn more pills to make up for the slow-down or something that would also be fine, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen either.

I would say the boon there was a result of our experiences with the wild hunt anyway, and since we did that we get it. It seems more likely to me that impressing BM would have opened up opportunities with her, but I don't care about her anyway so meh.

 

[paebel]

We really blew our chances with the Bloody Moon a long time ago anyway. The entire Yan Renshu situation probably made her very cross with us, what with our decision to try to simply end him as a threat for the moment as opposed to going along with Meizhen's plan, and then we used our connection with Cai to end him as a threat in the Outer Sect as opposed to personal vengeance.

 

[Katreus]

That's missing my point entirely. It's not about being punished, it's that penalties should actually make a difference and be noticable in the narrative.

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It's not a punishment. What is the boon if not a gift from a BM test? It doesn't make sense since we failed the BM test. It's not like I'm saying make it a debuff instead, just to remove the boon.

Like, if I'd map it out, it'd be:

SL Bonus: +5 to Exploration Rolls
Crit Success on Exploration Roll: Moon Site
BM Test Passage: Way Boon
Shaken Status: Minor Debuff

 

[Grosstoad]

... Still on the rewards.

Salt.

 

[PrimalShadow]

...

Is it really that important to hammer in "Each and every one of you that voted this way on that particular choice is a coward, and it is the GM's duty to rub that in as hard as they can so we--the virtuous--can feel superior about it?"

Because that's literally all that you're saying now Katreus. "I don't feel the GM supported our position--the righteous one--enough, so he should have taken away what little gains you made and made it abundantly clear that it's a punishment for missing the One True Perfect Route"

Really?

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Let me ask you this. Was the outcome we got supposed to be a failure?

Narratively, it feels like a failure. Ling Qi came out of this event seriously upset over how things went, and you see that reflected in the language used over and over:

"...Where are we anyway?" Ling Qi asked dully.

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"You should have run, they weren't real. What if you had actually died?" Ling Qi said without heat.

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As the graveyard faded away around them, and the warmth and weight of Sixiang's body dissolved away. Ling Qi could only regret. At least she hardly needed to sleep anymore as it was.

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But you will notice that the sense of failure felt by Ling Qi doesn't quite carry over to the player (or at least not to every player). See:

I disagree that this was a bad outcome. Could we have done "better"? Probably. But I don't really see this as particularly "bad" in the big picture.

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Meh, I say.

We did really well. We managed to learn some great lore, we managed to let Shen Hu have his own character arc without walking all over it, and we are beginning a good character arc for Ling Qi. Reward wise, we got a minor debuff and 3 significant buffs.

Could we have gotten more? Sure, but I'd argue that getting a BM reward might have screwed us over.

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So we've got this dissonance between LQ's feelings about the night and what we as a player-base feel. If that is intentional, that is fine. If it is NOT intentional, then the writing could be improved by making the negativity of outcome clearer in mechanical terms, and I think it is entirely fair to make that suggestion.

 

[Erebeal]

It's not a punishment. What is the boon if not a gift from a BM test? It doesn't make sense since we failed the BM test. It's not like I'm saying make it a debuff instead, just to remove the boon.

Like, if I'd map it out, it'd be:

SL Bonus: +5 to Exploration Rolls
Crit Success on Exploration Roll: Moon Site
BM Test Passage: Way Boon
Shaken Status: Minor Debuff

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The Hunt wasn't the test though. It never was. The hunt was just an ordeal and a lesson. From the experience we gained knowledge and power.

Actually impressing the Bloody Moon would give us completely different opportunities IMO.

So we've got this dissonance between LQ's feelings about the night and what we as a player-base feel. If that is intentional, that is fine. If it is NOT intentional, then the writing could be improved by making the negativity of outcome clearer in mechanical terms, and I think it is entirely fair to make that suggestion.

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Oh sure, Ling Qi shouldn't be happy about this at all. That's the point!

I just see that as a great narrative move and opportunity rather than something to feel bad about as questers.

 

[Katreus]

The Hunt wasn't the test though. It never was. The hunt was just an ordeal and a lesson. From the experience we gained knowledge and power.

Actually impressing the Bloody Moon would give us completely different opportunities IMO.

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Nah. This is a BM-crafted dream though, a lesson on vengeance (and convictions). And sure, I'd say that impressing the BM would give more rewards. But just because you experience an ordeal isn't the same as passing it, much less gaining a permanent Way bonus. Even when we got stabbed in the stomach and experienced the Sun Liling ordeal (heh), we at most got a temporary buff. And the second time we successfully ran away from her, we didn't even get that temporary buff. (We got nothing.)

So experience in and of itself doesn't grant boons, except perhaps skill exp.

 

[Arkeus]

So we've got this dissonance between LQ's feelings about the night and what we as a player-base feel. If that is intentional, that is fine. If it is NOT intentional, then the writing could be improved by making the negativity of outcome clearer in mechanical terms, and I think it is entirely fair to make that suggestion.

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Oh yeah, definitely. Ling Qi shouldn't be happy about this. She was shaken and realised her actual motivation was shallower than she believed it was. She also got traumatised by a not!white aura and got turned into a rodent while killing humans.... for nothing.

So yeah, from a point of view of "did this make Ling Qi happy", it didn't. But I believe it helped her understand herself more, and will help her more if she manages to resolve her issues.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Would the better decision just have been to vote to protect rather than receive a personal boon? I could possibly see asking to protect Shen Hu, I think asking for the mortals safety as well would be excessive though.

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If we only get to redo the last decision, I would definitely have asked to spare Shen Hu instead. It might have cost us, but it probably wouldn't have cost us that much, and at least we could come out of it confident in our own principles.

 

[Humbaba]

Honestly I feel pretty sour about this whole sequence. Too much grasping for any sort of information with no actual clues and only getting any real info when it's too late to do anything about it.

So is anyone else up for some nice, restful, uncomplicated dungeon crawling with Li Suyin next turn?

No trying to work out what the hell is going on and who we should fight with no information. No bullshit moral quandries where suicide that would change nothing is the correct answer, no super enemies, no trap offers or shitty last minute twists to ruin an otherwise interesting character piece. Just Ling Qi, Li Suyin and rooms upon rooms full of traps and things to kill and loot.

It sounds wonderful to me.

 

[Ayashi]

This whole thing was telegraphed fairly clearly?

Part 1, Ling Qi does a justice action to save the tree.
Part 2, Ling Qi waits for the King of the Forest and explicitly tells him: I am here to get the attention of the mighty and try to make you change your mind about stuff.
Part 3, Ling Qi gives into her fear and doesn't actually try to get him to change his mind. Bloody Moon turns away from us for not standing up to him nor standing for our stated purpose.

I like it. I actually really like this update. Everything is IC and it serves to show the limits of Ling Qi's character progression. This was fabulous writing.

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I kind of agree with this pov.
For all the crap she says what BM actually values is commitment. That's why Shen Hu got a smile even though he purposefully stood in the way of vengeance.

But ultimately the failure mostly rests in the quest format. The more successive choices in a scene the more divisive the thread becomes and the more schizophrenic Ling Qi choices become.
You'd need a mechanics like only the people that voted for the previous choice's winning option get to vote on the latter choice. Which obviously isn't going to happen.

I'm pretty sure Yrsillar even had more incoming choices if we picked Ask for something else for Part 3.
I don't think it was particular brilliant writing for a quest format since that's effectively setting up the protag to fail, simply add more choices until the thread inevitably picks the wrong option, but it would have been a great thing for a regular story.

 

[Grigori]

If we only get to redo the last decision, I would definitely have asked to spare Shen Hu instead. It might have cost us, but it probably wouldn't have cost us that much, and at least we could come out of it confident in our own principles.

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So you'd want to change further back if possible then?

On principles, Ling Qi feels like she's between stages. She's passed her point in life where she'd only care for herself and pretty much out and out stated it's not worth living like that but doesn't seem completely sold on Cai ideals despite being invested in fully devoting herself to her role. I'm not sure her personal principles weren't met here.