Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So you're saying that if Zhen spins around real fast like a propeller, our son can be a ship? :thonk:
AIRSHIP ZHENGUI AIRSHIP ZHENGUI AIRSHIP ZHENGUIAIRSHIPZHENGUIAIRSHIPZHENGUI
INCOMING FOR A LANDING

Ahem. Uh. Yes this seems fun.


Don't be silly. We haven't even reached the inter-sect tournament yet, which is clearly the end of the prologue.

As everyone knows you don't get access to the airship till disk three at the earliest.
 
Crux of the matter for me.
The arguments have gotten so vitriolic that they seem to be getting ignored reflexively entirely by now because most people can't take them seriously anymore
I dunno, I get the impression sometimes that people just assume there must be vitriol involved if there's persistence? "They must be mad if they're still talking" kind of thing. But listing various reasons for concern isn't vitriolic. Doing it consistently doesn't make it so either.

Not appreciating debate that's overstayed its welcome is understandable, but this is an odd way to dismiss it. Especially when there's no need to actually justify dismissing it.
 
I dunno, I get the impression sometimes that people just assume there must be vitriol involved if there's persistence? "They must be mad if they're still talking" kind of thing. But listing various reasons for concern isn't vitriolic. Doing it consistently doesn't make it so either.

Not appreciating debate that's overstayed its welcome is understandable, but this is an odd way to dismiss it. Especially when there's no need to actually justify dismissing it.
A great deal of emotionally charged, loaded terms like abandonment, betrayal, neglect keep getting used, and then proceeding to assign fault, as if there HAD to be fault for this to be the vote or outcome.

It looks a lot like taking shots at anyone who votes, argues or writes differently. It happens whenever time the vote item comes up. It happens when the vote doesn't produce any negative outcomes and negative outcomes are promptly invented with no more basis than the circular preceding argument.

There's just not many ways to engage with it in a civil manner after reading that turn after turn.
 
A great deal of emotionally charged, loaded terms like abandonment, betrayal, neglect keep getting used, and then proceeding to assign fault, as if there HAD to be fault for this to be the vote or outcome.

It looks a lot like taking shots at anyone who votes, argues or writes differently. It happens whenever time the vote item comes up. It happens when the vote doesn't produce any negative outcomes and negative outcomes are promptly invented with no more basis than the circular preceding argument.

There's just not many ways to engage with it in a civil manner after reading that turn after turn.
I'll admit I keep a closer eye on the "other side" of the debate, so to speak, so I've missed a good portion of this. Don't doubt it's been there, just not something I've really processed. Certainly, an atmosphere where people who vote, argue, or write differently are pushed out of the conversation is an unhealthy one.

Thank you, this is a useful perspective on the issue. I'll be keeping an eye open for the phenomenon you've described.
 
Dreams and Mirrors
AN: Releasing this one a little early since its aurprisingly relevant. Update itself will be out later today.

How does one describe in human words a world beyond human sense. The limits of written language are never clearer than this. Poets artists and scholars alike have poured out oceans of ink in the attempt, and each manages to convey only a facet. A single glimmering face of gem of indeterminate size.

But is that not appropriate for such a place as the liminal realm. The place where material form fades in prominence and consciousness resides? Indeed, calling it a realm at all is a failure of language. The realm of dreams is a sea of spirits, a vast whirling constellation of self contained worlds within bubbles of glass, and a whorling miasma of chaos all at once. It is the place where every person down to the meanest mortal is a king, and a place where the mighty walk, fly, and swim as leviathans of the sea, dragging lesser beings into their wake, emperors fit to trample kings underfoot.

You are such a scholarly girl, you ask me to define the laws of that place the way one would lay out the anatomy of a butterfly or describe the cycle of rains. Many wise scholars have tried to define the liminal realm, to determine its rules through painstaking experimentation and trial, and indeed, for those of academic bent, the liminal realm accommodates their tests, and the rules they 'discover' become the truth, but only within the reach of their eyes and pens.

This approach is a mistake I believe, for though Law changes in base reality, this process is slow and deliberate enough to be documented by mortal minds. In the places where Stillness does not reach, in which a single errant whim from a potent passerby might upend decades of study, it is only another type of self delusion. There is value in charting the Law which exists within particular self defined corners of course, if only to avoid offending their masters, but this approach is wrong when attempting to cultivate liminal energies oneself.

Rather, when venturing into the realms of thought, what is most important is identity and agency. Tales of moon madness have their kernel of truth here. For an unprepared mind, contact with liminal beings and places can blur the lines of the self, and damage the mind. In a place where all things are determined by will, one without a strong sense of self risks being molded like clay by creatures who see no wrong in the doing, for it is the great game of their fleeting existences.

To this end, one must maintain agency, defined here as clarity in one's goals and desires. To properly manipulate the liminal one must both know themselves and know their goals within it, and must maintain that knowledge as well as they may in the face of the energies and entities therein. It is important however, to not be too rigid in one's understanding, until you have reached the peak of cultivation, you must remember that you are ultimately human, and a creature of change and stillness alike. Resisting all influence can be as damaging as not, calcifying your thoughts into rigid structures long before you have even glimpsed your particular Truth.

It is a careful balance to maintain, and why such arts are restricted from open use. However, my niece, if you truly wish to follow my footsteps, it may be possible. I will not yet grant you the permissions to access true liminal arts just yet. Your Mother must be informed and if she approves, your ability will be tested.

-Bai Xia Song, Senior Archivist of the Violet Reef replying to a letter from her niece

***​

I ask that you not put so much stock in songs or stories my lord. While it is true that the realm of dreams is a difficult and chaotic place, there are certain underlying principles to it all the same. Established domains within that spiritual space are extremely high maintenance due to the corrosively chaotic nature of it and intrusions of spiritual entities, it is perfectly possible to exploit properly with rigorous enough effort.

The liminal realm is unstable and chaotic… but only absent the controlling force of a cultivators mind. With such a force, it is more than possible to establish small stable zones. It is really only an extrapolation of the principle by which the lagunas which surround certain powerful entities are maintained. While this is too draining for any but the mightiest cultivators to maintain on a permanent basis, as I have demonstrated, I have discovered a method by which the work may be offloaded onto a construct. Thus reducing the matter to merely being one of fuel.

My Mirror ways project is wholly stable, granting a path through which important individuals and goods may be moved without little details such as space or geography. You have seen my prototype, and while the distance used was small, I assure you that the principle remains sound over greater distances. Longer Ways will require more stabilizing constructs, and this will be a significant initial expense, but I assure you, the return granted by cutting out other transport costs and middle men will turn a tidy profit after only a few decades. With further development, it may even be possible to reach truly distant markets! Imagine for a moment, the power to be had in sole access to exotic goods beyond the reach of any other province!

As to the danger of liminal entities taking offence, it is a concern, this is true, but no more of one than dealing with spirits which inhabit a stretch of land meant for a new road. The taming process is somewhat more involved, and dangerous, but it is the role of one's troops to sacrifice for the clan yes? If it is truly a concern, perhaps an incentive can be offered to the families, a stipend of some sort perhaps? I will leave such details to my lord's wisdom.

As to your logistical concerns regarding the materials for the stabilizing constructs, the entrapped muse spirits do not maintain any conscious thought or sapience once properly bound. They cannot escape or sabotage the Ways, and if properly warded we need not concern ourselves with reprisals by their kin any more than we concern ourselves with more material spirit beasts when harvesting their reagents.

In any case, I have included the schematics and cost estimates for the first properly established way with this cover letter. This humble craftsman hopes that your lordship will consider his humble proposal. It would be quite a feather in your lordships cap, to be known for raising a modern Grandmaster.

--Wei Xing, Master Craftsmen of Alabaster Seas, to the Clan Head of Jin
 
As to your logistical concerns regarding the materials for the stabilizing constructs, the entrapped muse spirits do not maintain any conscious thought or sapience once properly bound. They cannot escape or sabotage the Ways, and if properly warded we need not concern ourselves with reprisals by their kin any more than we concern ourselves with more material spirit beasts when harvesting their reagents.
Huh, it'd seem to be somewhat paradoxical, given that the Liminal realm is shaped by Will and Identity.
If the bound muses are rendered incapable of thought they shouldn't be capable of maintaining the passage.

Trapped in a logical loop perhaps?
 
Huh is the group just going to end up chilling in a surprisingly pleasant ghost house surrounded by a blizzard complete with ghost child? Because Ling Qi desires to make a strong home for her family, she was the one who jumped everyone there, and well being out like a light bulb insures that unlike everyone else she won't hit any instinctive "does not work that way" due to living in the material world.

Naturally the group will silently agree to not talk about this event as what happens in the liminal realm stays in the liminal realm. :V
 
Me two weeks ago having no idea this commission existed:
So I've been thinking about the Formations Skill and what it could become. For such a versatile ability it is grossly underused in the current quest, for good reason when Arts are more powerful long term but if that were to ever change we would want to choose a specialization.

The boring answer is Infiltration Formations, it is our primary use of formations so far and a useful one at that but it isn't *constructive*. Maybe we'll be able to sneak past security and maybe even make some for our own home, but it's the school without creativity. Some want to create Music Formations. An inventive alternative is the suggestion that we specialize in Renewal Formations, Ling Qi is closely tied to the theme in multiple ways. But I think there's a better alternative: Dream Formations. A Skill that deals with concepts like: The Liminal Realm, Moon, Dreams, Mirrors, Music, Communication, Scrying and Travel.

The Dream is the Liminal Realm and entering it is one of Ling Qi's few abilities that she didn't gain from an Art. As Meizhen said it is accessible from dreams and mirrors. Mirrors would thus be the physical anchor of the Formations and they're tied to the Moon Goddesses as well since their symbols are often made from them. Mirrors are what the Communications Specialist Fu Xiang used in FoD, the purely spiritual Liminal Realm would be a good means for Communication rather than through the physical world. Music's connection to the Dreaming Moon is our means to shape the Dream how we want. RME's Viewing Pool also uses reflective surfaces for Scrying which means we have an Art that receives information from mirrors already and with Music two way communication becomes trivial. We could enter the Dream through our mirrors and use them to quickly and discretely Travel between them, giving us a means to go between our fief, the Sect and with CRX with minimal difficulty after Threads. We could create wind chimes out of reflective glass to let us make Music Formations; make wards and effects for our fief and home or a shard that vibrates Silence. Employing Liminal Realm would be an interesting twist to Infiltration Formations; to break security through high Skill and by seeing it from a non-physical angle, to sneak past without having to go from point A to point B and to build a spy network using mirrors and dreams to communicate. We could forge dreams into mirrors, letting us craft a home or places of rest and peace not entirely in the physical realm, or use them as art or for preservation or all manner of things. Imagine the heights we could reach while still at first feeling like it's a tangible, limited specialization.

You may ask "Auspicious Dycouza, how would we acquire this spectacular specialization?" The answer is a group project with Bian Ya and our Rank 2 ally Fu Xiang. Of the two Communications specialists we know Bian Ya's communication is based on how the Wind carries seeds, a broadcast similar to our Music. Fu Xiang again uses the Dream to send Hidden messages, something we might be able to help with. If these two ever cooperated on a project Ling Qi might be invited due to her familiarity with them both as well as her cultivation. All we need to do is saturate the Formations Skill and convince Yrs to give us the chance to use it proactively for a long term project without a massive cost of AP.

Imagine using our knowledge for travelling through the Dream with Wei Xing's Mirrors minus being stupid about it and enslaveing Moon Spirits. Making our own little domain away from the empire like Zeqing's Dream prison showed Ling Qi really wanted, though on her own terms.
 
This sidestory just fuels my worries about knock-on consequences and missed opportunities!

Huh is the group just going to end up chilling in a surprisingly pleasant ghost house surrounded by a blizzard complete with ghost child? Because Ling Qi desires to make a strong home for her family, she was the one who jumped everyone there, and well being out like a light bulb insures that unlike everyone else she won't hit any instinctive "does not work that way" due to living in the material world.

Naturally the group will silently agree to not talk about this event as what happens in the liminal realm stays in the liminal realm. :V
I feel like a protective sphere constructed of tiny mist children is a more elegant design. Simple, austere, adorable.
 
That's... quite different from the original quest version. Has Yrs been retconning enough that I should reread FoD?
Well most of it is streamlining, but there are tweaks and changes ranging from minor to major here and there
As well as some entirely new content in the form of bonus interludes

Most of the big changes have been around CRX and Yan Renshu
 
As to the danger of liminal entities taking offence, it is a concern, this is true, but no more of one than dealing with spirits which inhabit a stretch of land meant for a new road. The taming process is somewhat more involved, and dangerous, but it is the role of one's troops to sacrifice for the clan yes? If it is truly a concern, perhaps an incentive can be offered to the families, a stipend of some sort perhaps? I will leave such details to my lord's wisdom.
I like this little paragraph. "Yeah liminal entities could take offense, but it's not a problem. Ok, it may be more involved and dangerous but that's what you pay your troops for, isn't?"

It's like he is trying to dismiss the concerns as equal to material world problems but then admits that it is totally going to cost more in terms of troops and convincing the troops to do it.

This guy might be a master formations expert and knowledgable about how the material and liminal realms interact, but he doesn't seem very good at mollifying or convincing others about the dangers involved.
 
Huh, wonder if the group'll be stumbling across the Jin's spirit roads, that would definitely be an interesting way for them to get out of Dream.
 
I like this little paragraph. "Yeah liminal entities could take offense, but it's not a problem. Ok, it may be more involved and dangerous but that's what you pay your troops for, isn't?"

It's like he is trying to dismiss the concerns as equal to material world problems but then admits that it is totally going to cost more in terms of troops and convincing the troops to do it.

This guy might be a master formations expert and knowledgable about how the material and liminal realms interact, but he doesn't seem very good at mollifying or convincing others about the dangers involved.
Liminal geography does mean that you might get no reaction or a dogpile of intruders causing activity that pulls in more bored spirits...
 
this sidestory makes me very sure that the imperial interference into the old ways of Weilu doomed the Weilu to civil strife. If you have a good chunk of infrastructure and mutual-cooperation bonds with the liminal realm, a dominance based Imperial culture is disastrously incompatible. The Horned Lord and Diviner's original pact would be broken and eventually the Weilu would simply . . . cease to be Weilu.

Shenhua would be an excellent predator of the liminal realm though, and creating synthetic spirits by simply breaking liminal spirits into the desired shapes would be fairly simple for her.

That sort of Mirror Path would give the Jin the power they would need to swing with the big boys. Military applications are incredibly nasty. It would also give Sun a "neighboring" ally so to speak. Depending on how the liminal realm in the jungle works.

It's also incredibly abhorrent and disgusting what they're doing to the muses. Nailing down muses to make roads of them is . . . not acceptable. I wonder how the moon feels about it
 
Man this side story is quite topical for me since I just picked up Control. I wonder if the empire has their own version of the Bureau of Control to deal with the extra weird shit when it crops up or wiggles its way out of the Liminal Realm. Am also curious about the really weird shit that happens as a result of liminal shenanigans.
 
Eh, I'm gonna go ahead and say that "using moon spirits as batteries/lampposts" is not more unethical than hunting sapient spirits or spirit beasts for their parts, or for access to resources that they guard.

I mean, we know that the sect has enslaved an indigo-tier spirit beast to be a power generator: one of Zhengui's parents, who was a spirit beast partner of some enemy the Argent Sect defeated in the past. And unlike the moon spirits from the interlude, he's not in stasis: he's awake and conscious of his imprisonment. So arguably Wei Xing is behaving more ethically than the Argent Sect itself. So yeah, this is fucked-up, but it's not unusually fucked-up, by the standards of the setting. Just business as usual.
 
Eh, I'm gonna go ahead and say that "using moon spirits as batteries/lampposts" is not more unethical than hunting sapient spirits or spirit beasts for their parts, or for access to resources that they guard.

I mean, we know that the sect has enslaved an indigo-tier spirit beast to be a power generator: one of Zhengui's parents, who was a spirit beast partner of some enemy the Argent Sect defeated in the past. And unlike the moon spirits from the interlude, he's not in stasis: he's awake and conscious of his imprisonment. So arguably Wei Xing is behaving more ethically than the Argent Sect itself. So yeah, this is fucked-up, but it's not unusually fucked-up, by the standards of the setting. Just business as usual.
It very much strikes me as worse. An immutable facet of existence is that everything ends. Sure, dieing early causes suffering, but it's expected as part of existing. On the other hand, moon spirits are meant to change. Trapping them in one form is antithetical to what they are.
 
It very much strikes me as worse. An immutable facet of existence is that everything ends. Sure, dieing early causes suffering, but it's expected as part of existing. On the other hand, moon spirits are meant to change. Trapping them in one form is antithetical to what they are.
If everything ends, the same is true for the prisons trapping the moon spirits. There's no way those things will exist forever when nothing else does. So their imprisonment is not eternal, just potentially very long... which also holds for the volcanic tyrant tortoise the Argent Sect has trapped and is using to power the formations on the outer sect mountain.
 
Eh, I'm gonna go ahead and say that "using moon spirits as batteries/lampposts" is not more unethical than hunting sapient spirits or spirit beasts for their parts, or for access to resources that they guard.
Ehhh, it could be a problem, given how muse spirits are supposed to "cycle" between the greater Moon Spirit and the waking world. At least that's what I got from the time we saw Sixiang's memory.
The muses being caged like that means there is a blockage in the flow of spirits, and like with every blockage under pressure, something is going to give.
 
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