- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Reassure Hanyi that you'll find another way for her to help. [Better negotiating position in Zhengui arrangement. Avoids further entanglements with Bao Qian. Sad Hanyi.]
Cause I'm a cruel and heartless rebel who cares more about money than family.
More seriously, I'm not seeing good arguments on the "make Hanyi sad" side
Cause I'm a cruel and heartless rebel who cares more about money than family.
More seriously, I'm not seeing good arguments on the "make Hanyi sad" side
- Location
- australia
[X] Reassure Hanyi that you'll find another way for her to help. [Better negotiating position in Zhengui arrangement. Avoids further entanglements with Bao Qian. Sad Hanyi.]
i dont really like putting more deals and favors in with Bao Qian over just Zhengui, would rather have more info before putting forward more trust.
Like making a deal with him for Zhengui is already putting forward trust and the fact we would owe a favor points to him not really being interested in selling hanyi songs. I very much dislike selling her songs via someone who doesnt value them.
idk would rather just spend some money on Hanyi but i think the point of her wanting personal money is valid so im not totally the idea just dislike the nature of the deal.
i dont really like putting more deals and favors in with Bao Qian over just Zhengui, would rather have more info before putting forward more trust.
Like making a deal with him for Zhengui is already putting forward trust and the fact we would owe a favor points to him not really being interested in selling hanyi songs. I very much dislike selling her songs via someone who doesnt value them.
idk would rather just spend some money on Hanyi but i think the point of her wanting personal money is valid so im not totally the idea just dislike the nature of the deal.
Let's drill into the reason why the cutting a deal for Hanyi's recordings cuts into asking power in the Zhengui negotiations. Bao Qian values a trading relationship with Ling Qi independent of the specific offers at hand. For this he's willing to trim his personal profit margin, as seen with the discount he gave with the recording vessel for Xiulan's going away present. Ling Qi has been a reluctant and unenthusiastic prospect so far. By approaching Bao Qian with the Hanyi venture, she's both splitting the "get Ling Qi on board" incentive between two projects and signalling that it's less necessary in total. This isn't quite the loss it seems, because it was something that he'd only be offering in deals short-term anyway, and we arguably have more standing in the business relationship if we approach it on even footing rather than a foot-dragger who needs to be bribed into it.
Of course it's also true Hanyi's recordings are likely less profitable than Ling Qi's or Zhengui's ash. A really big reason for this is marketing. Ling Qi is a nobody-cum-vassal to the Cai, and a second to the heir specifically, which is going to expand interest -demand- beyond strictly traditional 3rd realm Music buyers. Zhengui is an elementally unique xuanwu whose ashes are going to attract interest for not only commercial purposes but also, and probably especially early on, research initiatives. By comparison, Hanyi has significantly less cache. Anti-spirit bias also probably plays a role. Ultimately, I doubt her recordings are anything like unprofitable, but it will take more work to find buyers. I'd still expect this revenue stream to exceed what we're "losing" on Zhengui's ash, the main difference is the ratio on profit will be more favourable for Bao Qian if we go for the 2 deals instead of the 1; that doesn't mean we'd be earning less.
As for the favor thing, I'm not sure people are reading it quite right. It's ambiguous, but I didn't read "Owe favor to Bao Qian" to mean "owe a favor" but rather "owe favor". Owe him a nonspecific positive inclination. Which could and probably would manifest in minor favor trading, but still not a formal IOU. Arguably, we even profit in terms of obligation here. By leaning into the trading relationship like this, we're giving Bao Qian respect, even as we are obligated to respect him for how we'll be benefiting from his expertise. We currently don't have many levers to pull with regards to Bao Qian besides our own intransigence, which isn't really the style I'd like to go for and is a pretty brittle thing considering our lacking clan roots; ceding that advantage in exchange for a more mutual form of influence doesn't seem like a bad trade to me. We can always fall back on being the most stubborn person this side of the 4th realm anyway, if we need to.
Finally, Music recordings aren't a risk to the musician. It's just something they feel uncomfortable with. Like, I'm sure they could be used as a conduit for crazy esoteric stuff, but you're looking at an upper Cyan+ cultivator doing that in all likelihood. If they want to mess with us or our spirits, we're messed with anyway.
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
Of course it's also true Hanyi's recordings are likely less profitable than Ling Qi's or Zhengui's ash. A really big reason for this is marketing. Ling Qi is a nobody-cum-vassal to the Cai, and a second to the heir specifically, which is going to expand interest -demand- beyond strictly traditional 3rd realm Music buyers. Zhengui is an elementally unique xuanwu whose ashes are going to attract interest for not only commercial purposes but also, and probably especially early on, research initiatives. By comparison, Hanyi has significantly less cache. Anti-spirit bias also probably plays a role. Ultimately, I doubt her recordings are anything like unprofitable, but it will take more work to find buyers. I'd still expect this revenue stream to exceed what we're "losing" on Zhengui's ash, the main difference is the ratio on profit will be more favourable for Bao Qian if we go for the 2 deals instead of the 1; that doesn't mean we'd be earning less.
As for the favor thing, I'm not sure people are reading it quite right. It's ambiguous, but I didn't read "Owe favor to Bao Qian" to mean "owe a favor" but rather "owe favor". Owe him a nonspecific positive inclination. Which could and probably would manifest in minor favor trading, but still not a formal IOU. Arguably, we even profit in terms of obligation here. By leaning into the trading relationship like this, we're giving Bao Qian respect, even as we are obligated to respect him for how we'll be benefiting from his expertise. We currently don't have many levers to pull with regards to Bao Qian besides our own intransigence, which isn't really the style I'd like to go for and is a pretty brittle thing considering our lacking clan roots; ceding that advantage in exchange for a more mutual form of influence doesn't seem like a bad trade to me. We can always fall back on being the most stubborn person this side of the 4th realm anyway, if we need to.
Finally, Music recordings aren't a risk to the musician. It's just something they feel uncomfortable with. Like, I'm sure they could be used as a conduit for crazy esoteric stuff, but you're looking at an upper Cyan+ cultivator doing that in all likelihood. If they want to mess with us or our spirits, we're messed with anyway.
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
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Mmmm I dont really want to quibble too much here, because on the whole you are absolutely right, but the money Hanyi earns is going to her. Likely she might for instance spend it on things like pretty talismans which increase her stength and are thus useful to us, but it is still her income. Thus this likely does in fact cut into our earnings. I dont think this is really that bad though.
I think the most likely reason why the decision affects the negotiation at all is because right now its one-sided. Bao Qian is the one approaching us with a deal and the one who wants to profit from our spirit. Thats makes him the weaker party because he is the one who wants something from us. Not to mention that in story Ling Qi is actually relucant to sell Zhenguis waste and only indulges his wish to contribute.
Now if we were to approach him with a business idea ourself it changes our position into 2 partys that want something from the other making us more equal in negotiations.
But that isnt necessary a bad thing because it also makes us more approachable and we would probably get more friendly with Bao Qian.
Also different from how some are saying it doesnt directly say we get a lower price for Zhenguis waste. It only means we less have say in it and it depens on Bao Qian how exactly the change in position actually effects the price. Ofc he is a merchant and will make effort to make more profit himself which means less profit for us but he is also interrested in making good impressions on us so its unlikely of him to take advantage of us. Sometimes makeing the most profitable deal for oneself isnt actually the best thing to do.
Also I think the actual purpose of this negotiation for Ling Qi is to form a better relationship with Bao Qian and to make Zhengui feel more useful and the money we make is more of a sidebenefit. Letting Hanyi sell her own songs would have the same purpose.
Now if we were to approach him with a business idea ourself it changes our position into 2 partys that want something from the other making us more equal in negotiations.
But that isnt necessary a bad thing because it also makes us more approachable and we would probably get more friendly with Bao Qian.
Also different from how some are saying it doesnt directly say we get a lower price for Zhenguis waste. It only means we less have say in it and it depens on Bao Qian how exactly the change in position actually effects the price. Ofc he is a merchant and will make effort to make more profit himself which means less profit for us but he is also interrested in making good impressions on us so its unlikely of him to take advantage of us. Sometimes makeing the most profitable deal for oneself isnt actually the best thing to do.
Also I think the actual purpose of this negotiation for Ling Qi is to form a better relationship with Bao Qian and to make Zhengui feel more useful and the money we make is more of a sidebenefit. Letting Hanyi sell her own songs would have the same purpose.
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Yukiko. Hanyi isn't mature enough yet. Still a child.
Right. So current case is:
Bao Qian:
-Wants: Xuan Wu Ash, Ling Qi's Songs, Ling Qi's Trust
-Has: Money, More Money, LoadsOfMoney
Linq Qi:
-Wants: Money, Happy Zhengui, Happy Hanyi
-Has: Xuan Wu Ash, Hanyi's Songs, Ling Qi's Songs
This is a clear case of working to sway a reluctant seller, Bao Qian has to initiate everything, and that means he must offer more to get Ling Qi to do anything other than remain in her base state of not selling anything.
Furthermore, he must offer favorable deals, Ling Qi would not consider merely having a fair deal for Zhengui's ash as a reason to be happy, because she doesn't want to sell to begin with, if less reluctant than selling her own songs.
I'd note also that Bao there isn't a fool. He would be very unlikely to jack up the profit-per-unit of the ash, because its simply a worse bargaining chip psychologically, a passive income is easy to forget, AND costs the Baos the most over time.
Its a shitty bargaining strategy to pay in cost-per-month rather than one offs.
Bargaining power should reflect in side benefits.
Of which we can see a few categories:
-Favors - Offering Favors of course means generating reasons for Ling Qi to seek him out more. Its open ended, but Ling Qi is politically naive and thus less able to get maximum value out of it unless she hoards the favor until she learns better.
-Information - Ruins, places of power, etc. A hefty cost, but one mitigated by Ling Qi being reclusive, she's unlikely to diminish the value of the information by spreading or reselling it.
-Drugs - The 'cheapest' for Bao, Ling Qi's drug usage rate is well known. Offering her rare drugs they have in stock is an easy deal sweetener, especially since drugs don't keep indefinitely, and many drugs are cultivation style specific.
-Talismans - We know he's a talisman crafter himself, and he has plenty of materials. Its hard to beat Ling Qi's personal gear...but a bit of observation would readily reveal that Hanyi and Zhengui's gear are out of date, last updated for the tournament nearly a year ago. And its clear she dotes on her spirits, so thats an easy way to win her spirits approval and have them promote him in their own time.
So he needs to bribe Ling Qi less to accept the deal, because she wants a deal now, and he doesn't need to pay to overcome her reluctance.
And on the flip side, Ling Qi being open to selling Hanyi's songs is a good development for him. He could use that to lower her guardedness against recording and sharing her songs.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
Internal relations with our spirits are more important to me than quibbling over how much money we'll get from selling the refuse of our turtle, and I wouldn't mind Hanyi developing in a more independent and less destructive manner either.
Internal relations with our spirits are more important to me than quibbling over how much money we'll get from selling the refuse of our turtle, and I wouldn't mind Hanyi developing in a more independent and less destructive manner either.
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Because he'd be entering into a new business venture with Ling Qi while handling most of the risk and distribution work mostly as a personal favor to her?
That's fair. I'm just smushing it all into an abstract family income because I'm lazy.
Also because I non-tangibly highly, highly value Hanyi going around engaging in commerce independently. Cause it's weird. Bizarre corpse-child spirits running around shopping is good civilization.
Naturally theres also the Zombie Land Saga market to consider as well
[X] Reassure Hanyi that you'll find another way for her to help. [Better negotiating position in Zhengui arrangement. Avoids further entanglements with Bao Qian. Sad Hanyi.]
Even though it's an option listed by the QM I do not believe that selling songs to nobles, of whom most would look at Zeqing with distaste, would be something that Hanyi would willingly do. The only way I would agree to this is if we kept track of where they are sold and stole them back if Hanyi changed her mind.
Even though it's an option listed by the QM I do not believe that selling songs to nobles, of whom most would look at Zeqing with distaste, would be something that Hanyi would willingly do. The only way I would agree to this is if we kept track of where they are sold and stole them back if Hanyi changed her mind.
As long as she pays them, its okay that if she scared them a little. Its not her fault the other customers ran away in fear.
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
[X] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
I fundamentally think this is a great opportunity for Ling Qi to guide Hanyi's growth no matter the outcome.
If there is no revenue, Hanyi will probably feel down, but Ling Qi can use that event to encourage Hanyi to improve.
If there is revenue, then that's an opportunity for Hanyi to practice her songs (maybe make her own) and gain experience interacting with other people.
Likewise the relationship with Bao Qian has a similar appeal
If Bao is really trying to swindle Ling Qi (doubt it), then it's better to find out with this relatively small exchange imo.
If Bao is genuine, then the favor he asks for may reveal some of his character and gives Ling Qi more interactions with someone who could be a good connection.
I fundamentally think this is a great opportunity for Ling Qi to guide Hanyi's growth no matter the outcome.
If there is no revenue, Hanyi will probably feel down, but Ling Qi can use that event to encourage Hanyi to improve.
If there is revenue, then that's an opportunity for Hanyi to practice her songs (maybe make her own) and gain experience interacting with other people.
Likewise the relationship with Bao Qian has a similar appeal
If Bao is really trying to swindle Ling Qi (doubt it), then it's better to find out with this relatively small exchange imo.
If Bao is genuine, then the favor he asks for may reveal some of his character and gives Ling Qi more interactions with someone who could be a good connection.
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
[] Agree to talk to Bao Qian [Gives Hanyi income. Owe favor to Bao Qian. Reduces asking power in Zhengui negotiations]
I tend to this option. Seems the equivalent of your kid's first summer part-time job. though i don't understand us owing a favor to Bao Qian. aren't we business associates? isn't he getting his cut of the profits in relation to the amount of effort he puts in the venture?
I tend to this option. Seems the equivalent of your kid's first summer part-time job. though i don't understand us owing a favor to Bao Qian. aren't we business associates? isn't he getting his cut of the profits in relation to the amount of effort he puts in the venture?
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
that makes little sense. If the songs sell poorly or even don't sell at all that should simply be reflected on the money Hanyi gets paid. period
And a deal for Hanyi's song affecting the profit rate of Zhengui's ashes is simply ridiculous: they are entirely different markets, unless you believe farmers are going to suddenly spend their money on music boxes instead of fertilizer!
Bao Qian potentially having other more profitable projects has zero relevance on any new projects he takes unless you assume he's too strained by the pressure of his current projects... in which case he wouldn't be here looking for us in the first place.
Again all this should simply be reflected on Hanyi's "wages". If BQ has to split his "Li Qing discount" in two (or three?) ways then that should be reflected on the profit rate of each project, not on us owning his "favors".
And if the profit rate is low enough as to make the project commercially non-viable then Hanyi wouldn't get paid anything and we simply drop the whole thing.
I mean, it'd be like BQ doesn't want to make business with us. Us owning his favors would be like we need to thank him for giving him the opportunity to earn money.
I find it simply ridiculous.
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TimEd
Meteor maker
I actually think the profits of this will be minor enough that Bao Qian will not think it worth the hassle of the production and distribution of the songs for whatever cut he might get, so he might just give all the profits to Hanyi, work to cost, and just recoup the losses of time/effort from Zhengui's deal + the favor.
- Location
- the internet
Yeah but what people are saying is that the amount of time and effort he'll have to put in to sell Hanyi's songs will likely be a lot more than the money he'll get out of it. b/c of the bias against spirits and Hanyi's songs won't be worth as much as ours or ZG's ash. Which is why Bao Qian likely never proposed a deal involving Hanyi's songs in the first place.
Not that I disagree of course. Reduced cash from ZG's ash is well worth a happier, more confident and independent Hanyi AND more info + relationship development with Bao Qian.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
That's because it's not kid's first part time job, it's Trust Fund Baby's first part time job.
She gets to build her resume and gain "experience"
Nobody really looks down on her much for that though, they play the game too. And maybe when Bao's cousin is looking for some work, Ling Qi knows somebody?
- Location
- Florida
Ya know who you sound like to me? ZEQING
This is character growth for her, she will learn all the pros cons merits and demerits of what she's asking of.
Ya know what I think will happen if she ends up sad? she'l think she's back in the mountain where nothing changes, We brought her out in order for her to grow as a person and more than just an ice spirit.
She will not learn and more than likely hold a small grudge against us if we deny her this, yes it is a selfish request from her but ya know what ITS A DAMN GOOD ONE.
Edit- Ahem regardless of whether her songs are a success or not she will have learned something of a lesson, she will not learn anything if she does nothing.
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- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
In which case the project simply isn't (commercially) viable and the option should be "[
If Hanyi's song don't sell well enough to cover the material and human costs then she doesn't get paid, and the distribution studio eats the overcosts (or whatever it's called) due to their incompetence in accepting the contract in the first place.
I still see no reason why we should own BQ a favor for it...
- Location
- Somewhere.