Ehh. He's a Primarch that already has an effectively perfect vision of the future. He saw his death years ahead of time in canon, and the Emperor can even bring Primarchs back from the dead if need be. Combined with the War Of Blood And Thunder threatening to destroy all of reality in a few centuries/millenia, I'd argue he's got some pretty good reasons to stay loyalist for now.
So only two that are with the Emperor no matter what.
That's honestly better than I thought it was.
Have any actions we've done or anything caused some of the others to have doubts or question their support for the imperium and such? Or is it just events unrelated to us causing it?
You have, although a large part of their reasoning is hard to pin down an exact reason. Primarchs are complicated, so you can really only say Kesar was part of the influence that led them to the places they are.
Primarch motivation can also change depending on certain events and factors. Had Pert and Horus gone through with their betrayal against Ferrus and Fulgrim, that would have seen Roboute and Corvus shift toward the loyalists because not only is that extremely dishonorable it sets the tone for the civil war to allow for brother versus brother to be exceedingly violent.
As long as no one escalates things, the civil war can be considered generally "low ferocity" between the brothers.
For the civil war, I figured that due to it being asked, I'd briefly cover the various stances taken by the Primarchs:
Lion - Loyalty and duty above all else, he's with the Emperor regardless of what happens. While he does think the Emperor is making mistakes and there are better ways, he's keeping his mouth shut
Fulgrim - Disconnected from the state of the Imperium and believes that living conditions are much higher than they are, he wishes to keep the Imperium together due to the belief it is better than disparate states and can improve conditions further
Perturabo - Logical and rational, he sees the Imperium as being a net negative for humanity. And expects his friends to be rebels. As such, he'll be one as well.
Khan - A man who has a rather unique perspective on freedom and the ability to choose one's fate, he'll be joining a rebellion provided it's not too morally compromised
Dorn - Duty and loyalty above all else, he's with the Emperor regardless of what happens. His friend Lion is there.
Konrad - The necessary evil within the rebel group, he's focused the Night Lords on deserving targets which has led to some internal strife. He's with Vulkan on this.
Sanguinius - Wishing to avoid a destructive civil war whilst keeping humanity centralized. He believes that the Emperor shouldn't be in charge but thinks a civil war would be disastrous if the rebels win.
Ferrus - A loyalist whose loyalty is wavering, he believed that people could improve their social status through hard work and labor. He's been realizing that's not the case.
Angron - He hates the Emperor.
Guilliman - Understanding the need to keep a functional economy, he's managed to prop it up but has been losing the will to keep trying. He's aiming to remain neutral to prevent a total civilizational collapse.
Mortarion - He hates the Emperor and wants a massive war. He's starting one.
Magnus - Disliking the Emperor but trying to avoid a war. He's very interested in research and knowledge which the Eldar have provided. He'll keep working with them as he's developed a liking to it.
Horus - A man who has realized the Imperium is fundamentally flawed, he regrets a lot of his decisions and thinks that the Emperor must be removed.
Vulkan - A man who sees the Imperium as fundamentally flawed and wishes for a significant overhaul, he's realized that the Emperor will call him a traitor before allowing his reforms to go through.
Corvus - A man who wants a functioning government at all costs and paid the price for it, he's been isolated by the Emperor but won't be stopping anytime soon.
Alpharius - ??? Doesn't complain about the Imperium. Against the Imperium.
Omegon - ??? Complains about the Imperium. Supportive of the Imperium.
Leman - Loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, yet hoping that he isn't forced to kill the people he cares about. He's been trying to stop a civil war but has begun to realize it's impossible. He'll still fight on the Emperor's side, regardless of the issues Zunia points out.
[X] Write-in: "Perhaps it's best if we also brought our grievances and concerns to my captains? If we are going to secede, we will need the Legion unified in purpose." - Commit to a council of captains to decide on secession or not after getting more context from the heroes of the Eternal Wardens (Oriacarius, Maticus, Doom Slayer, Bader, Orion, etc)
There were eleven people in the room. An auspicious number.
Kesar, Karcer, Oriacarius, Maticus, Doom Slayer, Orion who had rushed home after he was summoned by Oriacarius, Raz of the Triquetra, Rikard, Bader and Dian who had been summoned from their work with the War Hounds, and Bodin the forge master of the Wardens.
The Primarch hadn't intended to have precisely eleven individuals within a room that would make one of the most important decisions in the history of the Eternal Wardens, but he certainly wouldn't say that aloud. It was too momentous of an occasion for anything to happen accidentally.
There were two other individuals that he had wanted to invite before Oriacarius convinced him not to. Aurelian and Baldur who the First Captain feared would prematurely leak knowledge of this conference. Kesar made a mental note to add 2 votes to killing Karcer as he believed that would be Aurelian's vote. Trying to predict Baldur, however, was much more difficult, and Kesar found himself frustrated at the attempt. Instead, he delegated that responsibility to Oriacarius.
Only three people in the room knew why they had been summoned, leaving the other 8 glancing around the room with concerned expressions. Everyone had a reason to be here, and in Kesar's opinion, several others could also be invited. Abdul, Auro, Solarus, Julian, Lance, Liberius, Petus, Rene, Scotty, etc, all of them could provide unique insights that could add to the conversation.
Orion's addition had been unexpected and was largely due to Oriacarius' prodding. He had been away from the Legion for a while, so Kesar originally wasn't going to invite him. The First Captain however disagreed, explaining that Orion's work with both the Dark Angels and White Scars provided him unique perspectives on how other parties would react to the Wardens' decisions. As he had said, "We are not making this decision in a vacuum, others will react and respond accordingly."
Looking over at his sons, Kesar stood up, drawing all eyes to him. "You're all here for a reason." Kesar began, projecting his voice to ensure the gravity of the situation was well understood. "Lord General Militant Karcer will be leaving the Imperium," several expressions of shock crossed the faces of those present. "And we will be deciding if we should join, ally, or kill her." Kesar waited a moment so that his sons could internalize what his words truly meant. "For this, Karcer will be the main voice arguing for secession. And I require someone to argue for the other causes."
"I'll do it."
"I volunteer."
Two voices spoke simultaneously, and both Dian and Bader looked at each other before Bader turned to Kesar, "Could we break for a few minutes to discuss this privately?"
"Yes," the Primarch agreed, "It will do us some good to fully internalize what we're deciding upon today."
Kesar intentionally ensured that he appeared unapproachable at this moment. While he had his thoughts as to secession, namely that he thought it a step too far, he wished for an unbiased decision made by his sons. It was a rarity for him not to be directly involved with the inner machinations of the Legion, but today it was for the best.
Around him, whispered conversations began as a number of participants broke into smaller groups. Oriacarius was talking with Karcer about her reasoning for such a significant step as she explained the militaristic, economic, and social conditions required drastic intervention that the Imperium was not willing to give. Maticus was involved in a conversation with both Rikard and Doom Slayer on if secession would result in a notable setback for social improvements in the Imperium. While Vulkan had received a great deal of pushback, there were signs of improvement thanks to the Iron Communes Ferrus had begun to create as well as work done by Primarchs such as Kesar and Perturabo. Then there was Orion who had chosen to discuss matters with Raz, the two of them focusing on Magnus the Red's beliefs and whether he would eventually choose a side or remain neutral. The last party was Dian, Bader, and Bodin who were focused on a discussion of the humanitarian disasters that would occur in even the cleanest war as well as discussing the nature of loyalty.
The Second Anathema waited several minutes, but not one of the conversations showed any sign of ending. Carefully listening to the various points and counterpoints brought up along with periodically attempting to understand the emotions of his sons, he realized that while a few more minutes would be useful to iron out any minor points they were by and large set in their stances. Waiting those requisite few minutes, Kesar brought attention to himself once more and spoke in a slightly louder than normal voice, "The recess is over, Bader, Dian, have you chosen who will be speaking?"
"We have," Bader gestured for Dian to step forward.
The Apothecary did so, nodding gratefully to Bader and Bodin, "I will be speaking in favor of remaining with the Imperium. And while we support an alliance with Karcer's Gamma faction, if the Emperor orders us to act against her, then further analysis should be performed."
Kesar mused over the suggestion and found it wasn't a bad idea. Both working with Karcer's faction and killing her had similarities in execution, so it would be best to separate the decision into multiple steps. "You raise a good point, today we will be focused solely on the decision to secede from the Imperium."
Karcer accepted the idea after spending a moment looking around the room. "That is acceptable."
Dian nodded gratefully before Kesar moved to indicate the rules of this discussion. "Dian, you may speak first. After which, Karcer will be allowed to speak. Then both of you will issue your rebuttals before we open it up to the rest of the group."
With that, the Second Anathema gestured for Dian to step forward, allowing the discussion to truly begin.
"For starters, our way of life will cease to exist as we know it. Support from the wider Imperium will be non-existent, if not hostile. Supplies from various other domains of the Imperium will either dry up or be from others who are suffering the difficulties of seceding. The Cult Mechanicum will no longer be bound to us by the treaties forged by the Emperor of Mankind, and at best will require extensive renegotiation for any support. In the Maelstrom, this will ruin everyone's already hellishly difficult lives."
"It will also divide entire worlds and whole populations. Not only that, it will inevitably give rise to more crime and corruption among all the panic that follows. We could be looking at dozens, if not hundreds of criminal enterprises, cartels, and syndicates that will profit off controlling planetary resources and centers of production."
"And this only covers the immediate consequences. What of five years from now when war begins? When artillery thunders and urban warfare destroys the homes of countless trillions. I have witnessed the displacement caused by the Desolation, the humanitarian disasters that come from war on a fraction the size of a galaxy. A full secession as desired would trigger a far larger war, one in which there will be no safe land to flee to. Only the choice between temporary safety and the unknown choice of what lies beyond the Imperium."
"The Imperial Army will be given an impossible task beyond what is already required of them. They will be divided, their command structure in chaos as a large proportion simply secedes. The shock of the Gamma factions has already paralyzed multiple fronts, this would exacerbate the issue to the point of no return. While Astartes do most of the hardest fighting, no one can deny the fact that the Imperial Army does the most. To throw them into chaos … the best that would happen is they remain paralyzed. Which is already unacceptably dangerous."
"There will be chaos, there will be panic, there will be fear. The Imperium subsidizes unique resources through trade and tithe, which would be entirely lost following this decision. Unless Svarga can step in, we can say goodbye to unique resources from the Maelstrom. We can say goodbye to additional production of Knights and Titans. We can say goodbye to the Solar Auxilia and say goodbye to a significant number of superheavy assets. The thousands of colonies the Imperium is funding? They will either starve, stagnate, or find another backer."
"Perhaps you are confident this can be handled, perhaps you believe that a single crisis no matter the magnitude can be handled. We are not in a single crisis. The actions of Blair's Gamma Bloc have ripped off the Masquerade that is the Imperial Truth. Gods will be born and many will not be kind. Ultramar was thrown into chaos by the reveal, and that information is spreading rapidly. Our secession will amplify the chaos, and others will follow in our footsteps amplifying it yet further."
It was a good speech Kesar thought, hitting most of the points he had been concerned with. There was a notable focus on the consequences of rebelling rather than trying to claim the Imperium didn't need to change which was also helpful. He would have been rather disappointed if his son was that deluded. Instead, Dian had a thoughtful well-articulated reason for trying to avoid a civil war. Unfortunately, there was more than one side to the story, and after waiting a few seconds for the words to fully digest, Kesar extended a hand towards Karcer. "You may now speak."
"The Eternal Wardens are one of the few Legions that work so closely with the Imperial Army. The scale of losses within the guard has been massive within the Maelstrom, yet it pales in comparison to the level of death and carnage the tide of metal and men faces in the rest of the galaxy."
"The Imperial Army was built and structured in a way where attrition was not only expected but accepted. It was believed that the sheer number of men and material would ensure it could continue to operate regardless of apathy or outright hostility present in either officers or soldiers. Unfortunately, that was an idea that has been proven wrong."
"A quarter of the Imperial Army is expected to join a Gamma Camp or Bloc. A full half are now outright refusing orders from Lord General Militants they dislike. Orders to curtail and handle these traitors have already begun, with Lord General Mara's Bloc being declared traitors in full."
"A full 3% of the Imperial Army are a part of her bloc."
"If the Emperor has his way, there will not be an Imperial Army after this. Only a broken shell of an organization that will have to be rebuilt from the ground up. Perhaps this can be considered an opportunity to rebuild it better. By using the living quarter to form a mechanized army made entirely of Solar Auxilia. But that requires so many things to go right as well as the acceptance that 3 in 4 soldiers in the Imperial Army will die in the next few years."
"If you hope economics will save us, I'm sorry to say but that is grossly mistaken. Prior to the emergence of the Gamma Camps, the economy was slowly improving under the Tyrant of Terra. Unfortunately, the decisions made by the former Lord Commander Militant Eli have caused an economic slip that has been compounded by the recent coup orchestrated by Skullface. Make no mistake, while there are actions that can be taken to counter these economic issues, and several have already been done by Primarch Dorlin and Primarch Guilliman, it will not be easy. And it cannot be done while following the many commands of the Emperor."
"And this brings us to the largest, most pressing issue. Four Primarchs will be on trial for treason. One is guilty and deserves execution. The second is guilty and deserves imprisonment. But the third and fourth have done nothing wrong beyond trying to improve the Imperium."
"I speak of course about Primarch Vulkan and Primarch Curze. While some of their policies are flawed, they have performed their duties loyally for decades. But now they have made what is at worst an error in judgment when they tried to reduce the death toll from the rebellion."
"All they did was say no."
"The Emperor, however, has chosen to try them for treason. Not insubordination, but treason. It's a crime that can be answered with the harshest of sentences. And one that is out of proportion for their crimes."
Some of the topics covered hadn't been what Kesar expected, but he was biased by the news he learned of the Emperor's plans. The largest points of the Imperial Army, economy, and the Emperor's actions did mostly cover what he had issues with, but there was always more to discuss. "Dian," Kesar said neutrally, "your rebuttal?"
"While the situation is dire, to fully secede would immediately deteriorate the short-term situation. The colonists and soldiers on the Maelstrom worlds will suffer due to restructuring, lack of supplies as well as a rise in dissent between loyalists, rebels and those who turn to piracy to take advantage of the chaos. The Imperial Army with us will be severely divided, even if you and our Primarch perform miracles. The Sisters of Silence work closely with our Legion, and they are the left hand of the Emperor, so any chance of keeping this quiet or retaining their sorely needed assistance is minimal while they and more importantly the Emperor know us, our forces, our capabilities, our limitations and our weaknesses. Our previous means of uplifting worlds would have to be limited, or fully put on hold, simply due to putting focus on reforms. Let alone division from loyalists or lack of support from the Cult Mechanicum, which will yet again be devastating for the existing Maelstrom colonists."
"In short, a rebellion will solve none of these problems save for the Emperor's actions. The Imperial Army will be divided further, the economy will crash, and humanity will be more divided than ever. These issues cannot be solved through the application of sudden and immediate force. Rather they require deep structural solutions that must be implemented and tested over the course of decades to minimize disruption. While it is appealing to believe a civil war will allow us to start over and rebuild from the ground up, that simply isn't possible. These institutions will need to exist at all times, and tearing them down is a complicated process. Trying to do so after a bloody, messy war would be impossible."
Bader and Bodin both nodded appreciatively, satisfied that their main arguments had been delivered. Dian himself looked relaxed but resigned as if it didn't matter what he said because the decision was already made. Looking at the reactions around the room, Dian wasn't entirely wrong, there was clearly far more support for secession than Kesar expected. Regardless, he couldn't be drawn into that, he had to arbitrate this debate. "Karcer," his voice rumbled, "your rebuttal?"
"We are already divided. At this point, our only choice is deciding what level of division is acceptable."
"The Imperium's treaties with the Mechanicum are at odds with the Masquerade being lifted. We're seeing surges in religious activity that will have to be responded to or accepted. And knowing the Emperor, he will choose to suppress them, creating yet more division."
"We will be a failed state eventually without drastic change, but we have not seen any sign of this. Attempts by individuals such as the former Lord Commander Militant failed due to internal politics, and until this can be resolved progress cannot occur. The economy is held hostage by Primarch Guilliman, so any plan would need his tacit approval. Yet any plan will also need the approval of the Lord General Militants in the Imperial Army or another coup may occur."
"The Imperium cannot meet all the demands placed on it by internal forces so the various problems can only be solved by replacing the Imperium with another structure. Therefore, secessionary states are the only possible solution."
Short, but to the point, gesturing around the room, Kesar ordered the next part of the discussion to be held. "Now, the rest of you may speak. Your time will be short, so be brief."
The first to speak was Oriacarius. His words were focused on his plans as expected, citing three contingency plans he'd have to dismantle should they choose to secede alongside sharing another two that could benefit them. They were primarily focused on alternate logistical pathways that would be implemented in the event of a collapse of civilization within the galaxy but had a number of alternatives that'd allow for the economic blow to be mitigated. Finally, he presented his own arguments on secession including his very tentative support of the endeavor. It was a brief overview of morale collapses among the Imperial Army being indicative of a larger trend in the Imperium which would require some movement to gather disenfranchised voices before they could radicalize.
Maticus spoke next and chose to focus not on logical or emotional arguments, but on ethical ones instead. Arguing that the Imperium had begun to deprive its citizens of the promises it gave, it wasn't morally sound to continue supporting it. He briefly delved into the history of Svarga and Kesar's rule over it, explaining that the Primarch's actions had been ethical and just. But the decisions of the Emperor had lost their righteousness as time passed leading to the current situation where support of him is outright wrong.
Kesar continued to go around the room in order, gesturing for Doom Slayer to speak next. The Astartes gave the Primarch a look, causing the Primarch to suppress a blush and move on to Bader.
The philosophical Astartes, who often took a role in providing council for brothers in the Legion, focused on a combination of factors beginning with the fact that secession would lead to Astartes killing Astartes and Primarch killing Primarch. Neither of these would help Imperial unity and would create severe divisions that could lead to further escalation. War was messy as Bader explained, and while honor was a feature that humanity believed in, it was also easily discarded. The Imperial Army was vicious at the best of times, what would happen if they overran an Astartes outpost? How would Astartes react to their Companies being massacred by their cousins? How would Ferrus react should Fulgrim die in front of him? There would be no predictable answer, and the galaxy would rely on a devastated Primarch to avoid escalation.
Orion spoke next explaining the views of both the Lion and Khan. The former was certain to join the Emperor while the latter was certain to join the rebels. Lion was stubborn and would be one of the loyalists' greatest assets due to his strength of arms and skill of leadership. No matter how devastating things may be, he would stand against the rebels until he dies or the Emperor tells him to surrender. The Khan would support the rebels due to a combination of his perceived friends in the Imperium and his philosophical outlook on individual freedom clashing with the Emperor's view of the future.
Following his words came Raz, one of the three members of the Triquetra. His speech was rather short, indicating that he was biased as a psyker; he stated that the Emperor was not putting any effort into training psykers or rehabilitating their admittedly well-deserved reputation. Considering the current state of affairs, it was likely that the rebel forces would be more inclined to resolve the issue, with Raz saying that at this point Mortarion would likely be able to design a system that trains psykers better than the Astra Telepathica.
Rikard spoke next, saying that he trusted the First Captain's judgment as did the majority of the Legion. "As long as Father and Oriacarius are in agreement, all but a small fraction of the Legion would follow you."
Last to speak was Bodin, the Master of the Forge saying his loyalty was with the Imperium and he was unwilling to secede. His explanation included a focus on supply lines and industry, showcasing various bottlenecks and economic crashes that would occur post-rebellion. There would be many hidden issues that would cascade, masked by the active war economy. Unless the new government chose to continue that for centuries, it would lead to a second disaster immediately after the civil war.
Hours of cyclical discussions would follow unless Kesar intervened, which he did. Ordering a swift vote, the Primarch quickly obtained the results he expected. There were six votes to secede from Oriacarius, Maticus, Doom Slayer, Orion, Raz, and Rikard while three voted to remain with the Imperium (Bader, Dian, and Bodin). However, Kesar also factored into account the opinions of Baldur and Aurelian who would have chosen to remain. At least as far as he knew, Baldur was hard to predict.
Thus, with a vote of 6 to 5, the Eternal Wardens would secede from the Imperium, becoming the second Primarch and Legion to do so. At least this one was better thought out.
Kesar mentally reviewed his schedule for the next few years, trying to determine the optimal timeframe for the reveal. He was headed to Commorragh soon where he would meet with the Beggar King before heading into the Webway to receive lessons from the Harlequins and join them in a performance for Guilliman. After which he'd join Guilliman for a few days and meet with Fulgrim and Ferrus whilst they planned their strategies for their current compliance. Following that, he'd return to normal space for a meeting with Alpharius before a meeting with Omegon. At least he thought that was the order, it was difficult to tell due to the level of obfuscation the Hydra was using.
He wished he had Perturabo here for advice. It'd make matters so much easier. At the very least he'd need to ask Guilliman for advice, so the full announcement would have to wait until then. The timing afterward, however, was far more difficult. Should he do so before going to war? As soon as possible? After current reinforcement waves arrived? Kesar would have to make that decision soon, ideally now.
[-] Before Completed Scouting Reports - Seceding as soon as possible, this will occur while Kesar is meeting with Fulgrim and Ferrus. As a result, it was rejected after consideration.
[] Before War Strategy Meetings - Seceding effectively as soon as Kesar returns to the Legion will allow the Wardens to begin acting openly as soon as possible. However, the recruited waves of guardsmen will be thrown into chaos. Not to mention it will complicate planning for battles in the Maelstrom.
[] Following Imperial Army Mustering - Waiting a few months for Imperial Army musters to complete will help fill out Svarga's current recruitment requirements. It will also mean that Kesar meets with Alpharius and Omegon before seceding. The Maelstrom battles may be complicated, and it's likely the Twins will have opinions to give.
[] After Compliance Operations - Conducting operations in the Maelstrom before secession will ensure Svarga gets every bit out of the Imperium that it can before leaving. It does mean that it will appear disconnected from Mortarion's decision as well which could be useful. The Hydra may have things to say, however.
[] Write-in
Additionally, there was a level of secrecy needed for discussing and preparing for the secession.
[] Minimal Ears - Oriacarius' preferred option, he would swear the current participants to secrecy and have them act in the shadows. He thinks that he may even be able to keep it from the Alpha Legion, provided the Wardens present follow his orders and contingencies.
[] A Small Group - Allowing a small group of 20 individuals in total to know of the plan and prepare for it, it would provide a general framework but would increase the chance it is discovered early. In particular, Oriacarius thinks the Alpha Legion will discover the plan, even if the Siggillites likely wouldn't.
[] A Moderate Group - A total of 100 people will participate in the planning for secession. This will allow the economy and military to be coordinated when it occurs and ensure smooth, continued operation. However, it's likely that both the Alpha Legion and Siggillites will discover the plot.
[] An Open Truth - Informing all Warden Captains of the plan will ensure the plot is known about instantly. However, it will allow every Astartes to make a decision based on their core values while ensuring that all contingencies can be planned for.
[] Write-in
[] An Open Truth - Informing all Warden Captains of the plan will ensure the plot is known about instantly. However, it will allow every Astartes to make a decision based on their core values while ensuring that all contingencies can be planned for.
[] Minimal Ears - Oriacarius' preferred option, he would swear the current participants to secrecy and have them act in the shadows. He thinks that he may even be able to keep it from the Alpha Legion, provided the Wardens present follow his orders and contingencies.
I feel like Kesar would pick one of these two. He is a man of extremes, and it is one of his best and worst qualities. Me personally, I'd go with Open Truth, and let the individual captains decide what they want to do with that information, if they want to secede alongside the Legion as a whole, or remain loyal to the Emperor and leave the Legion.
I kind of agree. Moderation in this case won't really help anyone. I doubt Minimal Ears will be able to keep the plan from the Alpha Legion, since several of our Wardens confessed loyalty to the Imperium, but it's obviously the safest. It would, at least theoretically, buy us a lot of time to mobilize our forces and actually prepare contingencies for fighting the Imperium. Which is especially important because I doubt many of our Astartes are going to be comfortable killing their non-corrupted Brothers and Cousins.
Whereas An Open Truth is going to tell everyone, and ironically likely do a lot to postpone the immediate aftermath of rebelling. But it's clearly the most dangerous because the Emperor is going to know immediately and, given how loyal Astartes tend to be, I wouldn't put it past our sons to do something rash.
@Daemon Hunter
Out of curiosity, would this be a good time to vote on potentially revealing what Kesar Dorlin now knows about the Emperor's true plans? (i.e. kill most people and install a new 'I CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT EVERYONE IS DOING AND KILL SOMEONE WHENEVER I WANT' thing?) Might be a great argument for seceding for some of the Eternal Wardens that might be more on the fence.
@Daemon Hunter
Out of curiosity, would this be a good time to vote on potentially revealing what Kesar Dorlin now knows about the Emperor's true plans? (i.e. kill most people and install a new 'I CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT EVERYONE IS DOING AND KILL SOMEONE WHENEVER I WANT' thing?) Might be a great argument for seceding for some of the Eternal Wardens that might be more on the fence.
Also might be good to tell some of our rebelling brothers on BjgE plans too or even the loyalist one like Sangy, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Leman, and Omegan/Alpharius. I am in favour of waiting a bit more though as we are still crusading in the Maelstrom. So much things to do too. We still need to talk to many of our brothers as well.
We are really doing it fellas, hopefully we can convince the rest of our Eternal Wardens to stick with us once we reveal Big E's plan to set up a hive mind across the imperium. I say we go forward with An Open Truth, as to the timing of secession I will leave it to you guys to decide
Also might be good to tell some of our rebelling brothers on BjgE plans too or even the loyalist one like Sangy, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Leman, and Omegan/Alpharius.
Oh yeah that is true since while they are loyalist some of them have their allegiance to the emperor wavering and hopefully we could make them either neutral or join the rebel alliance
You now I like how Kesar disillusionment with emperor has been written in the quest. Now the important pit please oh spastic dice of this quest don't fuck us over at the worst moment
When people first made jokes about Kesar finding the idea of fighting campaigns against Daemons relaxing it really seemed like a joke. But with all the political bullshit we have been dealing with that has un-ironically become quite true with many people outright preferring to just bug off to the Maelstrom to fight daemons until this whole civil war thing blows over so we don't have to deal with this headache.
We can still do that if we find a means to maintain our supply lines. Our secessionism doesn't have to be based on the idea that we must replace the Emperor or the government. We can just hold out if we find the means to keep our war chest topped off, and there are plenty of opportunities.
For example, Daemon recently made a breakthrough in Thunder Warrior research. Thunder Warrior gives the average subject (who survives) a 50% shot of living twenty years. This sounds awful, and yeah, it is coupled with the physical and mental degradation, but the chance of the average Imperial Army soldier living up to twenty years is 0.01%. Especially for Maelstrom soldiers who would be directed away from the memetic hazard stuff (as that's way too dangerous for Thunder Warriors, obviously)
The method of making them is alson't something Kesar has to personally do; Apothecaries can do it as such. And while similar in complexity, the Thunder Warrior process can also be given to women as well (which means that there are a lot of candidates for super-soldiering already that just can't undergo Astartes stuff), and we can outfit them with modified scout armor, and they'd still be effective.
I am bringing this up because we can sell the service to make Thunder Warriors to anyone, including groups like the League, the Eldar, the Atani, the Mechanicum, and even other Gammas blocs. It's likely that this process will be handed out to our brothers freely since they can benefit greatly from the Thunder Warriors, so we can't sell to them.
So yeah, just need to find opportunities to sell our services.
@Daemon Hunter
Out of curiosity, would this be a good time to vote on potentially revealing what Kesar Dorlin now knows about the Emperor's true plans? (i.e. kill most people and install a new 'I CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT EVERYONE IS DOING AND KILL SOMEONE WHENEVER I WANT' thing?) Might be a great argument for seceding for some of the Eternal Wardens that might be more on the fence.
That'll be in the next update as Kesar decides who can and cannot learn about this. Atm, he's effectively going to have a meeting with just Oriacarius after these where he can decide on who he'll share those plans with.
We can still do that if we find a means to maintain our supply lines. Our secessionism doesn't have to be based on the idea that we must replace the Emperor or the government. We can just hold out if we find the means to keep our war chest topped off, and there are plenty of opportunities.
For example, Daemon recently made a breakthrough in Thunder Warrior research. Thunder Warrior gives the average subject (who survives) a 50% shot of living twenty years. This sounds awful, and yeah, it is coupled with the physical and mental degradation, but the chance of the average Imperial Army soldier living up to twenty years is 0.01%. Especially for Maelstrom soldiers who would be directed away from the memetic hazard stuff (as that's way too dangerous for Thunder Warriors, obviously)
The method of making them is alson't something Kesar has to personally do; Apothecaries can do it as such. And while similar in complexity, the Thunder Warrior process can also be given to women as well (which means that there are a lot of candidates for super-soldiering already that just can't undergo Astartes stuff), and we can outfit them with modified scout armor, and they'd still be effective.
I am bringing this up because we can sell the service to make Thunder Warriors to anyone, including groups like the League, the Eldar, the Atani, the Mechanicum, and even other Gammas blocs. It's likely that this process will be handed out to our brothers freely since they can benefit greatly from the Thunder Warriors, so we can't sell to them.
So yeah, just need to find opportunities to sell our services.
Yep, as you say here, secession isn't just "we're going to fight the Emperor". You could unironically just decide to conduct operations in the Maelstrom and ignore what's going on in the greater galaxy. There is the chance some people may not allow that, but it's still something to keep in mind.
And I can confirm the Thunder Warrior option is valid, although expect the price to reduce after the other Primarchs start doing the same thing.
Uh, well, since no-one else is voting, might as well get the ball rolling.
[] Plan: All In
-[] Before War Strategy Meetings
-[] An Open Truth
Strategically, tactically, economically, socially and overall logically it's probably better to try waiting a little while before diving deep into seceding. Especially here in the Maelstrom, because not only is it a mix of literal and figurative hell on earth but it's also utterly barren (relative to the rest of the galaxy) for usable supplies.
Imperials in the Maelstrom survive mainly by importing food and water. Using water in a daemon world or food grown from a daemon world is, uh, a risky proposition at best and a 'fate worse than death' sentence at a (very probable) worst. And if given the choice, I don't think anybody actually wants to be here. Even Eternal Wardens find this place difficult to deal with, and that was with all existing support from the Imperium.
Nevertheless, Kesar Dorlin has been honest to a fault thus far and, more than anything, loves his sons. Utmost secrecy has been used for the current meeting to decide seceding, at the behest of First Captain Oriacarius, but even with that he even factored in the anti-seceding votes he predicted from Aurelian and Baldur. Since it's been firmly decided, I think Kesar would wish to be open to his sons about this grave matter.
Even if some sons chose to stay away from Kesar Dorin and their brothers (very unlikely beyond the smallest numbers), I think... unlike his own father, Kesar would want to be upfront and give his Eternal Wardens a choice. Be good to all the Imperial Army soldiers too. Honesty wins a lot of points!
Edit: In the interest of tie-breaking and other reasons, will do this plan instead:
Honesty is one of our biggest strong suits. It is best to play to our strength in this troubled time. There are risks of BigE sending Valdor to capture or kill Kesar immediately but at this point, we might have to take that risk.
