LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
You have refining the KGs on there?
Tacit Ronin: The Power of Three
- Thread starter Fyrstorm
- Start date
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
...Okay, now that I've looked a bit closer, I actually have two sections of the Research Doc on the chopping block. First is Defenses, as previously said. But we also have both a "General Technology" and a "Other/Miscellaneous" category. Not only could these easily be combined, but much of the tech in the former could easily be placed in other, more specific categories anyway.
Pretty much everything that we were planning on refining or failed to Research last turn is on there.
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Honestly, I don't see much, if any, problem with removing categories that can have their entries moved somewhere else. Should make things easier to find, I expect. Should we consider combining particularly similar Jaeger equipment entries such as Breaker Asura and Phenom Sable, too? I mean, research-wise the biggest difference BA has from Phenom is "more arms."
Out of curiosity, is there anything for the AKB in your "next downtime" notes? I'm kinda assuming no, since we've got higher-priority stuff to work on, but I could be wrong.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
Nah. Keep the Jaegers separate. Best not to confuse things too much, I think. It honestly might be worth doing some better sorting of the J-Tech section, along similar lines to the K-Sci section. But possibly better structured in areas. For example, categories for weapons based on what stats are used, and also one for Grapple weapons. Might be good to sort all of the sections better, actually.
Nothing in my next Downtime notes, but those are honestly getting somewhat stripped down. I've been removing some stuff I had arbitrarily chosen to fill gaps. I'm thinking I'll just draw from my other list for Crusade-friendly research ideas, if I find I have gaps that need filling. However, I was considering adding AKB Jump Packs to that list, since they might also help with deployment.
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Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Fair enough. The "four arms" thing is probably enough to give BA an entry in the Jaeger section on its own anyway, since it's the only submission we've got so far that uses it.
AKB Motorized Skates could be worth consideration as well for list alteration purposes; being able to move faster while dismounted would mean they could spend more of their turns actually doing something potentially-useful (like lasering Cat 0's). On the other hand, we might just decide they're not worth deploying except to help hook up the wrecks we're salvaging...
That reminds me, though: Is "arm the Meganeura" on your list? Because that seems like it could be important.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
For the 15th stat point for Phenom, I think we should give him a point of ranged, then when we upgrade Revolver's weapons we can give one of the old weapons to Phenom.
Also, things we could research:
- A way to prevent city sensors from being able to crit fail the scan rolls (IE keep sensors from crashing or whatever)
- a sensor mod for Jaegers that mitigates being blinded, IE advanced redundant sensors.
- Long range recon drones, that can fly at higher altitudes, both for scouting ahead of the crusade, and later for searching for the Blue Star base
Also, things we could research:
- A way to prevent city sensors from being able to crit fail the scan rolls (IE keep sensors from crashing or whatever)
- a sensor mod for Jaegers that mitigates being blinded, IE advanced redundant sensors.
- Long range recon drones, that can fly at higher altitudes, both for scouting ahead of the crusade, and later for searching for the Blue Star base
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
If we give Phenom Ranged, we're probably gonna be giving him a Hydra Grapnel. That is literally what it's for, after all.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
I forgot about the Hydra Grapnel.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
...I'm not even sure "armed transport" is even in the Research Doc as a concept. Except maybe for Superheavies Mobile based also made for Jaeger transportation. Yet another one of those really basic ideas we somehow managed to miss. I'm not entirely sure it's necessarily worth it, now that I think about it. It's very likely to be a worse transport, and probably won't have good enough weapons to really justify the loss in transportation ability. But it's good just for being novel, honestly.
Jump packs would also improve speed, while also possibly allow for quicker debarkation from aircraft, I.E. help with landing after jumping out of a plane.
I considered giving it a point in Ran, but honestly? I'm not actually convinced it needs a ranged attack. So long as Phenom has a Barrier, decent speed, and maybe some firing support, I think it'll manage without.
The first idea is way too niche, and doesn't really match any of my criteria for good Crusade research. It should have high RoI, or low R impact. Or both. The same applies to the second one. The last would basically be Condor Drones. Which, given that Condors really don't have many opportunities to become Elites, wouldn't be a bad idea. Manned Condors would still be valuable for contacting distant settlements, since Drones don't really make for good ambassadors, but unmanned Condors would still be helpful. Honestly, making more Drone variants in-general would probably be quite a Crusade-friendly line of research. Thanks for the idea.
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Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Understandable; it's easy to forget stuff we don't use (or even really mention). The Grapnel's one of those things we (or at least I) would prefer to refine before deploying, but is still functional as-is.
When I first brought up arming the Meganeura (page 149, for reference), Fyr mentioned possibly strapping a 30mm cannon on it- presumably, it'd be light enough to minimize interference with its actual purpose of carrying things while still being capable of dealing with most Cat 0 or conventional targets. If we do decide to arm them, the wording should probably involve a mention of not compromising its carrying capacity.
While jump packs would likely improve speed, and almost-certainly speed up debarkation, they'll probably have limited fuel. The skates, meanwhile, could run off of electricity or something. If nothing else, I'd expect them to help us conserve the jump packs for when we need them. It's at least worth looking into, I think. (Though now that I look again, you didn't explicitly say that you disliked the skates, even if it appears to be implied...)
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
It's not so much "dislike" as "I'm not sure if they're actually useful for the Crusade". It depends on if the plan is for the AKBs to move between the different Jaegers by land, or by air (I.E. in transports).
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Yeah, that was pretty much what I meant; I've just been sick so I've had trouble thinking about stuff the last few days (and thus couldn't find the right words to say what I meant).
Anyway, both approaches for the AKBs have their ups and downs; if we deploy them, they can help with the small fry, but could get killed on the way (and thus delay us). On the other hand, if we keep them in the transports, the only way to kill them is to shoot the Meganeura down (which, to be fair, we'll have to prepare for anyway), but they won't be able to contribute to fighting off the massive swarm that is no doubt building up in Oblivion Bay.
Personally, I kinda like the idea of deploying everything we bring, since I doubt we'll be able to manage much more than a walk through that many enemies, but if we can manage a quick in-and-out I'm fine with that too.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Maybe we could design a light transport helicopter, something specifically built to quickly ferry AKBs from point to point while being cheaper/harder to hit than a normal jumphawk or Meganeura
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
...What reason would we have for building this? Like really, what would we ever use this for when we can build more versatile transports no problem?
Frankly, I don't think we'd ever even consider researching something like this, because it sounds completely useless to us.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
You had mentioned the possibility of using the Meganeuras for transporting the infantry and the risk that the Meganeuras could be shot down. Having smaller helicopters built to transport AKBs would mean that we wouldn't have to worry about losing the aircraft that we need to bring loot back, and since they are small, could probably mount the enhanced maneuvering thrusters that our attack choppers mount. Also, it takes 2 turns for a meganura to unload a unit, while these could do it in one turn, maybe even as a move action. Finally, we could probably mount micro-missiles on the light transports for a bit of extra firepower.
They would be a niche unit, but its not like we haven't built niche units before.
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
I meant that the Meganeuras risk being shot down just by being there (and they're definitely gonna be there because how else would we salvage Jaegers?).
As to these infantry transport helicopters you're talking about... I honestly don't see anything they could give us that the Meganeuras don't already do better. I mean, we're already discussing giving the AKBs jump packs to let them just jump out of the Meganeuras and survive the fall afterwards, which lets them unload about as fast as you're hoping for (and I doubt we'd be able to remove the "turn to land before unloading" requirement anyway without accurate teleportation technology), the Meganeura can carry two units and isn't restricted in what it brings, and arming them isn't exactly special since I've already gotten Fyr's go-ahead on arming the Meganeura almost 200 pages ago (with vulcans, admittedly, but that's all we'd need for them anyway).
The only thing I could see researching a smaller aircraft for right now is as a decoy (like, a small, evasive unit that somehow attracts inordinate amounts of attention so nothing important gets killed)... actually, that seems like an interesting idea. We just gotta figure out how to make the kaiju target the decoy instead of our more valuable units.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
Been mildly-to-moderately sick for the past couple weeks, myself, honestly. Mostly just congestion and stuff, though.
I mean, they're going to be deployed, the question is really about loading them back into a transport afterwards. From a speed perspective, which one is preferable is probably going to vary, now that I think about it. It'll most likely depend on whether or not taking the time to bring the AKB onto the transport saves us time. If the next Jaeger is close enough, then the AKBs may be able to reach it fast enough while on the ground that loading them into a transport would actually slow the process down. Once the Jaegers are recovered, there's really no reason not to have the AKBs to stick around and potentially help out with clearing the Bay, if that's what we're doing.
That said, getting rid of the whole "mount/dismount" mechanic for AKBs would probably be a good idea regardless. Them being able to move at a decent rate while still being able to fight would actually be quite helpful. Probably going to phrase it as "increase dismounted movement speed to equal or exceed mounted movement speed", so as to have a chance of moving faster than 4 units per turn, if we roll high enough.
Also, are Megas actually the best transports for this situation? I'm having trouble recalling the exact rules for loading and unloading. Are we supposed to assume 1 turn to do either if it's not listed in the unit entry? And also, can Megas load two units on one turn? @Fyrstorm? If unloading an AKB from a Jumphawk takes no turns, then they might actually be faster than the Megas in this scenario. I also vaguely recall some shenanigans about loading AKBs in already loaded Jumphawks or something (them riding in the helicopter, while the copter carried the other units, I think?), but that could be my memory playing tricks on me.
Honestly, more evasive transports isn't a terrible idea, but I don't see a reason for them to be so overspecialized. New units with faster loading and unloading times across the board could also be quite useful, honestly. Or even units with better carrying capacity. It's been ages since we designed the Megas, and we could probably improve on the design significantly now. Carbon nanotube ropes, stronger alloys for supporting what they're carrying, better fuels...yeah, we could probably improve a lot of aspects of our transports.
...Actually, that last one could be an universal upgrade to...pretty much all of our units movement speeds, TBH. More powerful/efficient fuels or engines, particularly for our aircraft, would also potentially allow us to reach Oblivion Bay on a single tank of fuel.
Uh...hate to break it to you, but transports that don't need to land to unload infantry, or even tanks, exist IRL. We can and do airdrop tanks on a fairly regular basis. Now, taking a turn to load makes sense. But there's really no reason, with all our advanced tech, that we couldn't develop the tech to airdrop all of our units. Including Superheavies. Might not even require new transports, just better parachutes. And we just developed nanotube-based fabric a few turns ago. There's another upgrade that might not cost us much R, if any.
Fyrstorm
Gun Waifu Extraordinaire
- Location
- 'Straya
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Meganeuras carry one unit in an internal bay, and the other hung beneath them on similar pallets to those used by the Jumphawks. Thus, they can't load two units in the same turn-- they need one turn per unit being loaded.
And making better transports/deployment equipment is totally a viable option.
And making better transports/deployment equipment is totally a viable option.
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Well, I managed to provide a reasonable in-universe method of achieving the faster unmounted speed, but if you want to be vague I don't mind (as long as it works, at least).
As far as I'm aware, loading a unit is a turn regardless of what you're loading it onto. So far, at least.
To be honest, the specialization is what I was objecting to most; if we can manage... well, even a Jumphawk with evasion, that'd be at least situationally useful. A transport unit that only works for infantry, though, is uselessly overspecialized, we seem to be agreed.
And, of course, "make everything faster" is always a good thing. I feel like "reach Oblivion Bay without needing to refuel" is still stretching things a bit, but if we can manage it then good for us.
...The fuel issue gives me an idea, though: Should we research tanker aircraft? I remember reading somewhere that there're real-life planes whose primary purpose is to refuel other aircraft mid-flight; if we make them they could, say, counter one or two instances of the "burn fuel to arrive faster" thing (for city defense) or enable longer-distance deployment (like the Crusade) without requiring a Meganeura to carry the fuel. On the other hand, our city defense battles tend to be over long before the time limit imposed by burning fuel expires, so that may not be quite as useful...
Don't apologize; I legitimately didn't know about this. I don't usually surf Wikipedia looking for real-life military tech to replicate in-game, after all.
If we can manage to research the ability to unload without using a turn for it, we probably should; never know when we'll need it to reinforce our other stuff.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Just a note: Air dropping anything heavier than our infantry or artillery is gonna be hard. Air dropped tanks weighed no more than 25 tons, and dropped separately from their crew, as it was not unknown for the tanks to be destroyed on landing. Compare that with our type 100s, which probably weigh more like 60 to 80 tons, due to having 150mm cannons.
Sir Plusse
Overly Vicious Quester
- Location
- Kansas
Sounds legit to me. ...Come to think of it, airdrops would be one potential application for anti-gravity tech. Probably not our primary application, but it'd definitely be usable that way.
Also, a belated counterpoint to Nix's "better parachutes" thing: The only way to accomplish this is to make bigger parachutes, since their effectiveness is primarily derived from having extreme amounts of surface area (and thus extreme amounts of drag) relative to their weight. Better materials would only help in their function if they're lighter, I expect.
Highwind
To Rise From The Ashes
- Location
- Brazil
Tanker Aircraft are a major reason the USAF has such a strategic range advantage over everyone else. The Meganeura can already cover the role of a tanker aircraft, though our doctrines for using them could use some work depending on how we actually use them on the field.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
Kinda like to leave details to the GM sometimes.
Nope. Jumphawks take two to load regular units. That's part of why the Megas exist (as well as to move SHs).
Certainly seems that way. And yeah, it's definitely a situational advantage. But it's a situation that we know is going to come in the near-future, in-game.
You'd be surprised how much bond energy you can pack into a small space with certain compounds. And, while high bond energy generally goes hand-in-hand with a high chance of exploding due to various stimuli, there are a few such compounds that are stable enough for our purposes. So the precedent exists. And refueling aircraft are indeed a thing. Might be a bit too specialized for our purposes, though.
Yes...that's why I learned about it...definitely not a concept I encountered during a wiki-walk looking into paratrooper things after listening to the song "Hill 3234" by Sabaton.
"...Sent into battle/came from the sky/Trapped on a mountain/and into the fire..."
Eh. That means they only weigh, like, 3-4x the current maximum airdrop capacity of the US military. It's just a difference of 80,000-120,000 lbs. I'm sure we can manage that.
In all seriousness, the US military seemed to think 30 tons was probably doable, but they don't use their current maximum capacity chutes often enough for them to have much incentive to raise the capacity higher. And we have the ability to build things like flying giant robots and positron cannons. I think we can probably improve on the achievements of the IRL military. With enough time and R&D, anyway.
Not...quite. While having an extreme amount of surface area is indeed a major factor in effective airdrops, durability comes into the picture because you need materials that can withstand the forces involved. It's not like no one considered just making the parachutes bigger. I find it fairly likely that one limiting factor is in the area of materials. Mind you, there are other practical factors that dictate maximum viable parachute size. But how well the fabric can resist the forces involved is definitely a factor.
Also, parachutes are made of more parts than the chute itself. The suspension lines need to be able to support the weight of the payload, as well. Though, from what little I've read so far, the real bugger seems to actually be the stitching. That apparently tends to be what gives out first. Which makes sense. It's thin thread supporting a heck lot of weight.
I had forgotten about that. Can't do mid-air refueling, unfortunately, But we can refuel from them, if they carry fuel.
Fyrstorm
Gun Waifu Extraordinaire
- Location
- 'Straya
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Neo-Seattle:
Southeast Sector:
To the east is the bulk of the city's forces. Jagdhund, the army, the navy, and the air force all set up, in classic defensive style. Everyone waits, preparing for the kaiju's appearance.
It doesn't take long.
Intercessor looks incredibly similar to Traverser, as expected, but in person the differences are far more evident. Though it carries the same grey scales as its predecessor, Intercessor's carapace is a mottled mix of dark blues and purples, and the orange glow of its tissues have shifted to a vibrant pink. There's no metallic fins on its shoulders, or obvious external weapons that have been added, though its forearms and shins both feature armoured ridges running down them.
By contrast, Clawface is just weird. Its body is fairly normal-- a typical reptilian humanoid, with a supple tail and dull blue scales-- but each of its four limbs seems to just be the same appendage attached in a slightly different manner, ending in a flexible clawed hand even where a foot would usually be. Its head is almost featureless-- no eyes, no nostrils, no mouth, just a pair of long prongs sprouting from the front of its face, their inner surfaces lit up with yellow bioluminescence.-- but it doesn't seem to be hindered in the slightest by its missing organs. The only concession it seems to make to biological necessities is in the two rows of armoured gills on its upper back.
Southwest Sector:
To the west, the forces are far fewer. A battery of railguns sit along the wall, their power feeds linked up and ready to fire as needed. And, half a kilometre in front of them, is Tacit Ronin. It's not much in raw numbers-- but given what Tacit's been shown to be capable of, it should hopefully be enough.
A minute later, Scatternail shows itself, bounding towards the city like a demented hellhound. Lanky and limber, the kaiju's gait seems halfway between an ape and a bat, though its body is far more reptilian than either. A pair of massive forearms are balanced by a sinuous tail, the former's immense talons mirrored by the curved spines running up the latter and its back. Its head resembles that of an eel or deep-sea fish, with a wide mouth and doubled-rowed teeth, though its cluster of eyes seem more at home on an invertebrate. Crescent plates on the back of its head protect its neck and shoulder blades, but beyond that the green skin shows no heavy armour.
Of course, perhaps lacking heavy armour is the intent, as Scatternail suddenly interrupts its own breakneck pace with a spontaneous leap. Thin bony struts splay out from behind its shoulders, spreading membranes to catch the wind as it glides a few hundred metres closer-- before its feet touch ground again, and it immediately lunges back into a run.
Your turn.
Neo-Seattle:
- SE:
-- Jagdhund 5 from DP, prone (Jagdgewehr ready)
-- Air Force (sans Dragonflies) 5 from DP (Drakons with Crackers)
--- Dragonflies 15 from DP
-- Land Units at DP (cannons loading acid)
--- Tyr at DP
--- Hlin at DP, shield active
-- Navy ~5 from DP (Destroyers loading acid)
- SW:
-- Tacit Ronin 5 from DP
Anteverse:
- SE:
-- Intercessor 40 from DP
-- Clawface 40 from DP
- SW:
-- Scatternail 30 from DP
- SE:
-- Jagdhund 5 from DP, prone (Jagdgewehr ready)
-- Air Force (sans Dragonflies) 5 from DP (Drakons with Crackers)
--- Dragonflies 15 from DP
-- Land Units at DP (cannons loading acid)
--- Tyr at DP
--- Hlin at DP, shield active
-- Navy ~5 from DP (Destroyers loading acid)
- SW:
-- Tacit Ronin 5 from DP
Anteverse:
- SE:
-- Intercessor 40 from DP
-- Clawface 40 from DP
- SW:
-- Scatternail 30 from DP
===
Everett:
Everett's forces are immediately on the move, rolling out into position. The army units and Heimdal head as far as they can without air transport, stopping just short of the Snohomish to set themselves up. The air force soars overhead, Phenom and the newly christened Revolver Shogun hanging in the midst of the group by their transport cables. Slightly more westward, the Murasame Type-RX circles around and up, stopping a short ways away from both jaegers as they splash down. Though the wheeled and tracked forces are definitely going to be stuck on the defensive, there's plenty of room and water for everything else to maneuver a little more aggressively if need be.
And as expected, the kaiju show up soon enough, stomping down towards Priest Point with menacing intent.
Anton is, of course, extremely large-- though proportionally on the squat side. Humanoid in shape and crustaceal in composition, almost the Category III's entire body is coated in thick, brown-green carapace, though a few gaps around its throat and abdomen show hints of paler flesh, and its reptilian eyes are unobstructed. Obviously, the business end of the kaiju is its arms-- each is around the size of one of Phenom's legs, and ends in a massive pincer that seems part nutcracker and part guillotine-- but it's got more than just the four limbs. Folded up around Anton's soft underbelly are dozens of insectile appendages, each tipped with a rudimentary claw. On their own, they might not do much, but the sheer number of extra arms clustered there would be a hassle for anyone to deal with.
By contrast, Arrowhead almost immediately gives the forces transferred from Neo-Seattle flashbacks to Arkon. Narrow and angular, the entire kaiju's body is covered with shards of shining metallic crystal, which bristle and chime together with each movement, yet don't seem to inhibit its motions at all. The only part that don't seem to be thus armoured are the quartet of ribbons sprouting from its shoulder joints, each a single stripe of blade-like steel, which nonetheless flexes and twists like an octopus' arms. On their scanners, the jaegers can immediately detect the electromagnetic field running through each appendage-- though the specifics of whatever these provide are still unclear. Fittingly, the Cat III's head is shaped much like an arrow, triangular and bladed with only a pair of slit-like eyes for noticeable features.
Both monsters are little more than a kilometer away from hitting water, and neither seems like they're going to stop without some exceedingly good reasons.
As always, you have the first turn.
Everett:
- Phenom Sable 15 from DP
- Revolver Shogun 15 from DP
- Air Force 15 from DP, standard loadouts equipped (Drakons with Crackers)
- Land units 5 from DP, unable to advance further*
- Murasame 15 from DP, 20 from kaiju**
* They're a little further northwest of Sysco Everett Yard, on that pier-like structure, so move any further out and they'll fall in the Snohomish River.
** Math is a thing that exists. Basically, because it turns out that geographically your deployment zone has a lot of water in it, I'm going to let you move around the Murasame pretty much as much as you want, so long as you don't try to bring it closer than 500 metres to the city or something that'd similarly beach it.
Edit: fixed the Mura's positioning.
Anteverse:
- Anton 35 from DP, 10 from water
- Arrowhead 35 from DP, 10 from water
- Phenom Sable 15 from DP
- Revolver Shogun 15 from DP
- Air Force 15 from DP, standard loadouts equipped (Drakons with Crackers)
- Land units 5 from DP, unable to advance further*
- Murasame 15 from DP, 20 from kaiju**
* They're a little further northwest of Sysco Everett Yard, on that pier-like structure, so move any further out and they'll fall in the Snohomish River.
** Math is a thing that exists. Basically, because it turns out that geographically your deployment zone has a lot of water in it, I'm going to let you move around the Murasame pretty much as much as you want, so long as you don't try to bring it closer than 500 metres to the city or something that'd similarly beach it.
Edit: fixed the Mura's positioning.
Anteverse:
- Anton 35 from DP, 10 from water
- Arrowhead 35 from DP, 10 from water
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