What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?


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Ideally I'd like a solution that cracks down on the more extreme cells of the cult, and integrates the less extreme sides. They are researching tech that could potentially be useful like this:
Mechanicus-Level Skitarii-Mind Linking to their Overseeing Techpriest Dominus. Without the Slaved-To-One aspect.
Which could be used to great effect in our military and manufacturing. So I think an avenue of opening up some research into this field would be good for sure. But the actions of some of the cells are definitely unacceptable.

Also the fact that the founder has a secret data repository he won't share is suspicious, It goes against the Creed to not share potentially beneficial knowledge with the whole of the faith. So maybe as part of the crackdowns we specifically preform a covert operation to locate the device and take it, and arrest the founder too.
 
They aren't Chaos, as far as you and Cerberus know. But keep in mind that, if you were the Inquisition reading about the Droman Creed, you'd immediately go: "Tzeentchian Front" due to your Major Themes being Hope and Change

Right, thank you for soothing my Paranoia Cooky.

In that case, I'm...tentatively willing to try and work with the most moderate of these groups, though I'm still more inclined to something like Laurent's plan to try and remove the conditions that make people vulnerable to what the Cult offers.

Attack the Roots, Spray the Head

I like this plan, maybe you could include things that help show people who work on the lower side of manufacturing or resource extraction and such how, even if they might not feel like they fulfil a purpose, they play an important role in the function of the planetary and national economy?
 
I kinda assume you... aren't as in strong disagreement, and that's why you're relatively positive on them?

I'm not the person you're addressing directly, however I feel like I should talk about this point.

From my perspective, the term "Hivemind" actually has some potential nuance to it.

In the absolute worst sense of the term, there is One Mind that infects and consumes all other potential objects and beings that are able to act as a carrier for the One Mind. Even if you separate a carrier from the network, it has still been entirely consumed and become the One Mind.

I think technically the Tyranids don't count as this level due to Genestealer Cults being influenced and filtered through the One Mind and set to worship it, rather than actually being copies of that One Mind. Also there are cases of carriers just dropped essentially dead I believe if the network crashes.

A proper step down from Tyranids would be what would essentially be a Psychic Network filled with individual souls that are weaved into it, with there being bleed over and spill over between souls due to proximity, strength, and deliberate merging attempting. One Large/Strong Enough Soul could braindrain things into a One Mind situation I believe.

A step down from that would be something like the Geth I think. They are in all of technicality the largest and fastest existence of a Direct Democracy Government I have ever heard of, with every instance getting a vote, every vote being equal, and votes generally being conducted within moments, minutes at the worst. For the majority of their existence no Geth is really able to do anything without the cooperation of other Geth, however we have explicit proof that Geth are no identical even with the same information being presented to two separate Geth in the exact same way with the exact same context. Beyond direct violence or massive programming bullshit, you can't actually force a Geth to be different from theirself, which is why I view this as a step down.

A further step down from that would essentially be People-Hooked-Up-To-The-Noosphere/Internet-With-Brain-Impulse-Levels-Of-Button-Pushing. Presumably even installed MMIs and brainchips can disconnect from The Network as it were, and otherwise it's just The-Internet-But-Faster.


I personally find something between the Geth Step and the Soul Tapestry Step vaguely acceptable in concept, as it would essentially boil down to "Clearer More Honest Communication Through Esoteric Means, Done Faster". I think for Civ Purposes we could get away with something like the Geth while properly maintaining moral and ethical bounds.

The Cult's current lower bound seems to be the "Internet-But-In-My-Brain-And-Faster" step.

If they didn't scream Genestealers and their Founder and Data Source were willing to risk be examined, I think we could get a lot of benefit out of providing an outlet for their stated goals, but as it is their worst bits seem to be committing the same crimes of murder and exploitation as the Dark Mechies were when we rebeled against them.
 
[] Plan: Coopt, Therapy, and Undercut
-[] Establish stricter standards of security and ethics for experiments, to at least keep them from covertly infiltrating or beginning scientific experiments in their direction... and clean that up in general, making it clear that the guidelines on ethical experimentation are both moral and a way of advancing knowledge in actually-usable ways.
-[] Research facilities really should be more secure.
-[] Allow somewhat limited research into mind-interfacing and other similar things, within these highly restricted ethical standards.
-[] Study and analyze the lowest extremes of the Aetherical Cog to find and select suitable candidates for legitimizing into an official properly structured and monitored cult that discards the cell-like structure of the Aetherical Cog. Encourage the lowest extreme cells to dissolve and join this official church to be protected by official recognition. They would of course have to have a new name.
-[] Proscribe organizing under the banner of the Aetherial Cog or its beliefs that are not of the officially recognized lowest-end doctrine. In essence, brings the hammer down on those who do not submit to the officially recognized doctrine.
-[] Develop and create a psychological therapy organization and professional therapists to help people self-actualize themselves without being drawn into the extreme end of the Aetherical Cog doctrine.
-[] Put money where the mouth is in working with those in the demographics most likely to be lured to provide them opportunities for new kinds of jobs, upward and sideways mobility, etc, etc. Create more opportunities for self-actualization, and when combined with the discouragement of the "Aetherial Cog Community" it will make it less popular and less able to provide those Wants.
-[] Also utilize propaganda to celebrate individuality and personal responsibility within the bounds of the community.

Here's what I have. Takes several pieces from Laurent's plan but also my own stuff. Any comments would be welcome.
 
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I'm not the person you're addressing directly, however I feel like I should talk about this point.

From my perspective, the term "Hivemind" actually has some potential nuance to it.

In the absolute worst sense of the term, there is One Mind that infects and consumes all other potential objects and beings that are able to act as a carrier for the One Mind. Even if you separate a carrier from the network, it has still been entirely consumed and become the One Mind.

I think technically the Tyranids don't count as this level due to Genestealer Cults being influenced and filtered through the One Mind and set to worship it, rather than actually being copies of that One Mind. Also there are cases of carriers just dropped essentially dead I believe if the network crashes.

A proper step down from Tyranids would be what would essentially be a Psychic Network filled with individual souls that are weaved into it, with there being bleed over and spill over between souls due to proximity, strength, and deliberate merging attempting. One Large/Strong Enough Soul could braindrain things into a One Mind situation I believe.

A step down from that would be something like the Geth I think. They are in all of technicality the largest and fastest existence of a Direct Democracy Government I have ever heard of, with every instance getting a vote, every vote being equal, and votes generally being conducted within moments, minutes at the worst. For the majority of their existence no Geth is really able to do anything without the cooperation of other Geth, however we have explicit proof that Geth are no identical even with the same information being presented to two separate Geth in the exact same way with the exact same context. Beyond direct violence or massive programming bullshit, you can't actually force a Geth to be different from theirself, which is why I view this as a step down.

A further step down from that would essentially be People-Hooked-Up-To-The-Noosphere/Internet-With-Brain-Impulse-Levels-Of-Button-Pushing. Presumably even installed MMIs and brainchips can disconnect from The Network as it were, and otherwise it's just The-Internet-But-Faster.

I personally find something between the Geth Step and the Soul Tapestry Step vaguely acceptable in concept, as it would essentially boil down to "Clearer More Honest Communication Through Esoteric Means, Done Faster". I think for Civ Purposes we could get away with something like the Geth while properly maintaining moral and ethical bounds.

The Cult's current lower bound seems to be the "Internet-But-In-My-Brain-And-Faster" step.

If they didn't scream Genestealers and their Founder and Data Source were willing to risk be examined, I think we could get a lot of benefit out of providing an outlet for their stated goals, but as it is their worst bits seem to be committing the same crimes of murder and exploitation as the Dark Mechies were when we rebeled against them.

One thing to consider here is that the "death of self" and "hivemind connection" thing need not be part of the same axis.

Mechanicus-Level Skitarii-Mind Linking to their Overseeing Techpriest Dominus. Without the Slaved-To-One aspect.

Skitarii mind links, for example, are just internet but faster. But with the "slaved to one" aspect, such a system can, despite it's lack of complexity, inflict more damage on the sense of self than a higher level psionic construct.

The supplicants have 2 aspects that are not necessairily the same .

1. They want to create a hivemind
2. They want to use this hivemind to eliminate the need for individual decision making, in what seems to be a rather hierarchical system.

But it's perfectly possible to have cooperative hive mind, without that "one person defines eveyrthing for everyone" thing.
 
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Reread the Supplicants arguments and I listed my own thought process/argument against what they're saying
A sect and a cult of the Star-Mechanicum that desires to shed the fallibility of the self and replace it with the infallibility of the many.
entire groups can fail just as individuals can as well, look at the imperium and its title as the worst human regime in history

No longer shall one need to suffer the many if they can enjoy the one.
individual's can suffer just like entire groups can suffer, ergo a potential future hive mind can also feel suffering; it is better to have a helping hand aid someone suffering then to have just one person suffering with no one else around to help.

No more doubts, no more fear, no more dissonance.
doubt keeps us inquisitive and question things,
fear is what tells you something is wrong and keeps you alive
the dissonance between people allows many viewpoints , its what allows things like family, love and other relationships to exist; you may argue the hivemind can love itself, but why can't you do this now as an individual? its this dissonance one can see the star child as an entity to love

Only the hard certainty that no matter who you are, you have a place, a purpose, and a duty that will be fulfilled and enrich all beings everywhere.
. . . Out of Character, but I feel like we should hit them with the Minecraft ending poem about how you matter cause you are loved cause you are made of love.

There will be no strife when all are one under the Star Child.
There will be no hunger when all are one under the Star Child.
There will be no suffering when all are one under the Star Child.

For when all are one under the Star Child, the Star Child will be them, and they the Star Child.
. . . out if character, but isn't the general consensus of our civilians contentment? like strife, hunger and suffering are all at an acceptable level and any hardship is one they take upon them self, force themselves to volunteer to fight wars and face the harsh galaxy together, so . . . i don't get this desire for no strife, hunger or suffering.

Back in character
everyone within the federation is under the Star Child (its called the Domad Creed), so that means the star child is already with us and we already exemplify and imbody the star child as individuals; there is no need to become a hive mind for the purpose of doing so has already been achieved
The idea that one can simply...let go of all their fears, of all their despair and misery, let go of pain and uncertainty, and be always comforted in the knowledge that, yes, they have a purpose, they are worth and worthy of the Divine Grace that the Star Child has given us to usher in its Age...
I'll restate this again
fear is what tells you something is wrong and keeps you alive, it warns you of danger and is there to protect you
the negative experiences we face give value and meaning to the good in life, to weaken the fear in our hearts and to clear up the clouds of disappear and misery that blocks our vision, to ease the pain an uncertainty of our own choices and the consequences that comes from them, all of them would be nice, desired even but to remove fundamental parts of the experience known as life,

and the fact you fear the star child doesn't loves you, that you don't believe your current self is worth and worthy of divine grace is . . . concerning in many ways for what has the Star Child done that made you feel shunned and discarded? Even the mutants are loved, allowed to to love others without bringing harm to their fellows, Xeno's are accepted as long they don't harm others under the star child, so what makes you say "I am not Loved, I'm not Worthy of Love, that i must change and others should change with me so to understand and love each other"?

There is a truth: "What reason do those who see no worth in themselves have to refuse an offer to make them worthy?"
you are worthy and have been for a long time, theirs no need to "Make" someone worthy, just the need to show you that you are and help you receive that for yourself
 
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That would be really cool honestly, I love that poem.
Same, it literally tells you that your loved cause of being born, that the pieces that make you are parts of the universe assembled into a unique individual being just so you can love others and the universe, so the universe and others can love you back.

You are loved cause you are love.

Like how do they argue against This? Deny that they want to be worth and worthy of the star child only to be told that they already are?
 
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A step down from that would be something like the Geth I think. They are in all of technicality the largest and fastest existence of a Direct Democracy Government I have ever heard of, with every instance getting a vote, every vote being equal, and votes generally being conducted within moments, minutes at the worst. For the majority of their existence no Geth is really able to do anything without the cooperation of other Geth, however we have explicit proof that Geth are no identical even with the same information being presented to two separate Geth in the exact same way with the exact same context. Beyond direct violence or massive programming bullshit, you can't actually force a Geth to be different from theirself, which is why I view this as a step down.
I think most people would be willing to get up to this point...which I guess is where the level of acceptability is. Anything higher and it gets concerning
 
You are reading this far too literally. They are speaking in a broadly religious and galaxy-wide level here, and in their overall philosophy, not "Federation Exclusive."
so they want to have everyone linked together?
. . . why does this give me the vibe of having everyone be a psyker and using telepathy?
actually how do the Supplicants view the idea of having everyone be able to use telepathy and talk in some weird warp internet across the galaxy?
 
They want all humanity to become a hive mind.
Not only that, but an unknown Magos randomly found a databank on a planet that had a pretty notable Tzeentch Cult on it. This origin starts ringing some alarm bells, especially b/c trying to get everyone all into one Hive Mind sounds like a great way for Chaos to try infecting everyone if a Cultist has a back door installed.

(Think Kollektiv 2.0 from Atomic Heart where the ones with the keys would pretty much become a digital God over humanity)
So can't we just declare the Cogs fully illegal and have Cerberus hunt them down like the regular Chaos cults?
We could, but that doesn't really address what makes them so insidious. A Hammer isn't going to be how we can hope to solve this, we need something a bit more subtle and precise other than just trying to play whack-a-mole since there will always be people attracted to it if we don't take steps to address why they are trying to do so in the first place.
They are, 100% Certified, a Star Child Cult like the Droman Creed is. There is nothing to worry about here, they only wish for all to become one and leave behind all suffering and despair.
Hmmm, I dunno if this is you being sincere, or just saying what we have information of in-character. There is the "unreliable narrator" tag above after all….
That means one thing- I get to shill for therapy again!
And reading about who this Heresy attracts, I agree with you. Some therapists would do nice to help make the galaxy less Grimdark.
 
I think we need to make sure we do not condemn and proscribe Hive Minds in general, because i bet you 20 bucks that we're eventually going to run into a Xenos race that's Hive Minded and somewhat reasonable, and i would like to not be immediately forced into exterminating them for religious reasons.
 
actually how do the Supplicants view the idea of having everyone be able to use telepathy and talk in some weird warp internet across the galaxy?
Some work toward that, others do not like the idea, some think it is abhorrent, their counterparts are hyped about bringing that about, the whole spectrum is there.
Hmmm, I dunno if this is you being sincere, or just saying what we have information of in-character. There is the "unreliable narrator" tag above after all….
Oh, I am 100% being honest here. They are not the Chaos Cult Front.
I think we need to make sure we do not condemn and proscribe Hive Minds in general, because i bet you 20 bucks that we're eventually going to run into a Xenos race that's Hive Minded and somewhat reasonable, and i would like to not be immediately forced into exterminating them for religious reasons.
Foresight Person, My Beloved.meme
 
Oh, I am 100% being honest here. They are not the Chaos Cult Front.
Hmmm.

You do say that as if one of the other groups is.

-[] The Anti-Particularists
The opposite to the Particularists, they have twisted this section of the Creed to its utter limit: I believe that these Five, Omnissiah, Emepror, Motive Force, Body of the Faith, and Star Child, are Indivisible and One, and Two, And Three, Four, and Five. They believe one can pair the Five-One according to their "Co-Equal Hierarchy," represented by a square with four edges and the Star Child in the middle. In this, they claim that the Emperor and Omnissiah are on the Left and Right of the square, with the Community of Faith and Motive Force in the lower left and right, relating to each other in their respective roles and relations as they come together to create the Star Child.


Maybe these ones. They do seem to be trying to turn 5 into 4 chaos gods and 1 chaos undivied
 
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-[] Among the groups lured and deceived by this idea of personhood being unimportant, begin a propaganda campaign emphasizing the power of individual achievements within the group and emphasizing the stagnancy of any such "Hive Mind."
In recruits, I think that doesn't fundamenty address the outlook of someone who wants to completely forsake their individuality to make themselves worthy of being loved, it's more of an intellectual argument.

We also need to find a way to address the potentially massive security issues that even a sanctioned hive mind might have. They sound particularly vulnerable to, say, a chaos ritual that targets a particular member to inject scrapcode into the network, or a hostile AI.

(Also, this reminds me of how Mutants work in this quest, with multiple stories within a single soul. Not sure what's up with that, but it feels metaphysically relevant here).
 
entire groups can fail just as individuals can as well, look at the imperium and its title as the worst human regime in history

Clearly we just need to add more people to the group. You, citizen, get into my BRAIN! /j

individual's can suffer just like entire groups can suffer, ergo a potential future hive mind can also feel suffering; it is better to have a helping hand aid someone suffering then to have just one person suffering with no one else around to help.

Also, to add onto the problem here, and I know the author said it does not appear to be a chaos cult, but it feels like a lot of people could go heretic once they realize that shit, yeah, we can be hurt as a whole as well as an individual. To go back to someone who said "Chaos cults but actually trying" could it be that the cult is a front for a chaos cult because the population is resistant to chaos cults. Essentially being softened up? I don't know who or what could have started it, but we do have a lot of veterans who just finished fighting a major war against chaos undivided. It still seems kind of suspicious and if it is a second degree chaos cult it still seems relatively easy to absorb and defuse.

. . . out if character, but isn't the general consensus of our civilians contentment? like strife, hunger and suffering are all at an acceptable level and any hardship is one they take upon them self, force themselves to volunteer to fight wars and face the harsh galaxy together, so . . . i don't get this desire for no strife, hunger or suffering.

Strife, hunger, and suffering are pretty much mostly eliminated from society (from what I can tell), and these are treated as external threats that occur in other societies and people go and volunteer to destroy them (and the assholes perpetuating them). However, emotional anguish and desire for companionship and togetherness are things that no society can meet constantly without being a hivemind. Self-esteem is something that requires that is really hard to fully achieve, and becoming self-actualized as a person is something no one ever really fulfills (Maslow's hierarchy of needs). In humans. SO when it was mentioned that the cult is literally preying upon human needs it was a completely literal comment.

Now, in terms of dealing with the cult. Maybe tacking on the counter programming about individualism and self-determination in education and social events could be an effective means of killing the cults recruiting pool. Then again we could end up with space AMERICA. However, I can attest to its effectiveness in stamping all sense of community and faith in others. I also don't know about what sort of middle-class and methods for people to live their lives fulfilling themselves outside of supporting each other and surviving and living satisfying lives. It doesn't necessarily seem like this society has gone beyond surviving and crusading and hasn't gotten to the point quite yet where people have time to do things that last beyond believing in the Star Child and some basic space capitalism and colonialism around the ass end of the Imperium. Which sounds very exciting, but also kind of monotonous.

So, Cooky's response to me commenting a while back about how Stealer Cults were probably one of our biggest threats. I'm sure it's just a red herring, right?
I mean, sometimes I Do Be Saying Shit. :p:D

Or, you know, it could be genestealer cults, and this going to turn into a very exciting next several turns.
 
1. This shit is like a drug straight into my writer veins. More please!
2. The Upper Extreme of the Aetherical Cog is the "Psychic Network" stage you've described.

1, Happy to do so!

2, Noted, thank you!

One thing to consider here is that the "death of self" and "hivemind connection" thing need not be part of the same axis.

What is a Memory?

In our imperfect fleshy hard drives of carbon and fat and lightning, it is the recollection of a Moment, of the chemicals and emotions and physiological responses when something happens, the inscription of every bit of data received in that split second of existence-

And those all fade over time.

Regardless of how strong the impression of an Experience makes on someone, unless they have a specific rare brain structure that says otherwise because mutations, in time all things will fade and that is an intended aspect of our evolutionary history.

We as a species survive longer when things fade, because the things that hurt us also fade, eventually becoming naught but an uncomfortable phigment haunting us in the backs of our minds in the middle of the night instead of a constantly throbbing trauma burred right into our present experience for what feels like the rest of our days.

I'm going somewhere with this, trust me.

A core aspect of Hive Minds is memory storage and shared access.

You can't have a Hive Mind in really any sort of capacity unless that Mind is able to store and share information across carriers, and that data within a Mind is what we call a Memory, so there really can't be any sort of disagreement on this particular point as I understand things.

So what happens when someone with one lifetime's worth of Memories is drowned by another lifetime of memories? Ten lifetimes? A thousand lifetimes? A billion?

I remember assembling parts in a factory for all of my life- No, I remember decades of picking up litter in the park- no, no, I remember just yesterday how I flew combat strikes against those Chaos Bastards- I am a chef- a ship captain- a demolitions expert- a parent- a sibling-

I am 14 years old.

I remember the blood on my hands like I painted it there myself, yet I have never held a knife let alone a lasgun.

I am 62 years old.

I remember assembling my millionth hab-block wall, certain to my bones that it will stand the test of time and pass with flying colors, just like all the rest of my walls.

I am 8 years old.

I remember watching my children join the job lines for the first time, so proud to see them help make our world a better place one work shift at a time.

I am- how old am I again?

Without very strict limitations on just how in depth shared memories are allowed to be, even if the Hive Mind system isn't designed to cause personality death, it can end up doing exactly that by providing a mental environment where someone ends up shaping themselves to reflect the behavior of those within their community, which I note is something that happens to people today where they end up slowly changing who they are due to slowly boiling within a community until they reach the point that those who they knew before entering that community would never recognize them.

A Community of innumerable amounts of people who are able to share their memories to such a degree that it is just like if the viewer had been there themselves? If you can't remove yourself, if you can't explicitly preserve your own Self, then it is just a matter of time before you are fully absorbed into the zeitgeist of the Network.

Every step increase in the "Hivemind Connection" aspect makes the "death of personality" aspect more and more likely regardless of intent and more and more difficult to avoid, but it isn't impossible altogether.

Just something that takes a lot of effort and a lot of safety measures to ensure you aren't sacrificing people into an ever growing Over Soul.

But it's perfectly possible to have cooperative hive mind, without that "one person defines everything for everyone" thing.

It is!

It's just going to take a lot more effort to get right than these guys can do themselves.

I think most people would be willing to get up to this point...which I guess is where the level of acceptability is. Anything higher and it gets concerning

I said the Geth Step was our realistic maximum for a reason, yeah.

. . . Out of Character, but I feel like we should hit them with the Minecraft ending poem about how you matter cause you are loved cause you are made of love.

Just read it.

Very nice.

. . . out if character, but isn't the general consensus of our civilians contentment? like strife, hunger and suffering are all at an acceptable level and any hardship is one they take upon them self, force themselves to volunteer to fight wars and face the harsh galaxy together, so . . . i don't get this desire for no strife, hunger or suffering.
so they want to have everyone linked together?

It's a declaration of Intent that, if they have their way, everyone will be joining The Star Child Consensus, even if they need to be forced into it.

Basically "Galatic Crusade To Force Everyone Into The God-Hive-Mind".

Oh, I am 100% being honest here. They are not the Chaos Cult Front.

I knew those bloodline assholes couldn't be trusted! :V
 
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What is a Memory?

In our imperfect fleshy hard drives of carbon and fat and lightning, it is the recollection of a Moment, of the chemicals and emotions and physiological responses when something happens, the inscription of every bit of data received in that split second of existence-

And those all fade over time.
To lose Memory is to experience death. At least one theory goes, as your memory makes you who you are and to lose even one is to change from who and what once were.
 
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