Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)

[The Laurent]

[] Plan: No. And Yes.
-[] Straight up refuse all demands for Yivv. Have the Temple Authority back you, or try to win their support in this.
-[] Similarly, Zentraneum is not theirs, even if it's not yours either in the sense of exploitation.
-[] Sure, I suppose you (Alliance) can have Weznicritt and Kalikrax.
-[] Civilian Trade with Shipwright's Good.
-[] Embassy with both good.
-[] The Temple Authority can have Murrs, they've offered the better price, also suggest them backing our insistence on holding Yivv and the neutrality/protectorate stuff with Zentraneum, or at least try to use the agreement to surrender Murrs to them to spur cooperation.

 

[HeroCooky]

These motherfuckers.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of First Round Diplomacy!

Motherfuckers you live in 40k.

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And you will note that they spent the last 10k years slow-boating it to the current era in quasi-hibernation getting to look at everything going to shit in fast-forward. Please keep in mind that the MTA is a 28K Nation in 40K.

I mean, the narrative here wasn't from their perspective, it was more "Lol you think you were relevant here, how cute"

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It was how they saw it, how they reacted to your proposals, and how they justified their reactions.

 

[One Autumn Leaf]

And you will note that they spent the last 10k years slow-boating it to the current era in quasi-hibernation getting to look at everything going to shit in fast-forward. Please keep in mind that the MTA is a 28K Nation in 40K.

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Oh...they don't know how bad shit can actually get. They are seeing it but they haven't experienced it...oh no

 

[The Laurent]

Welcome to the wonderful world of First Round Diplomacy!
And you will note that they spent the last 10k years slow-boating it to the current era in quasi-hibernation getting to look at everything going to shit in fast-forward. Please keep in mind that the MTA is a 28K Nation in 40K.
It was how they saw it, how they reacted to your proposals, and how they justified their reactions.

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I mean, honestly the Shipwright's stuff is a lot more egregious.

Current Casualties (just in the latest decade)
[31%] of all sent Ground Troops

We were sending, like, a vast number of ground troops. We had people dying by the hundreds of thousands or millions and they're like, "Well lol the Lamenters were the ones actually dying."

 

[SirKana]

/jk Welp time to fire up them shipyards and go show them how us humans do diplomacy!

 

[Profilozof]

-Weznicritt and Kalikrax are returned to the Shipwright's Alliance.

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yeah, that seems reasonable.

and Yivv be returned.
-They request that Zetraneum and Murrs be returned.
-They will offer 'Adequate Compensation' for the liberation of these systems.

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Yeah, I don't really see what could be considered Adequate Compensation for those system. Maybe a STC or 2, but I doubt they have it.
I think we could give back Broken Lime and Love Huff to them, but not the whole Yiff system.

As for other points, forcing trade on rock guys isn't a good idea; maybe they will want to do it in the future, but it doesn't need to be dealt with now.
As for how to get Shipwright's Alliance to see a reason not to overextend by demanding like 10 times the number of their planets, I think we should offer rebuilding aid and a more beneficial trade agreement for 5 decades.

They probably want Zetraneum for gas giant and the possibility of fuel that will come from it, so offering a similar deal to the one Mashan Temple Authority, seems good to me.

 

[The Laurent]

yeah, that seems reasonable.

Yeah, I don't really see what could be considered Adequate Compensation for those system. Maybe a STC or 2, but I doubt they have it.
I think we could give back Broken Lime and Love Huff to them, but not the whole Yiff system.

As for other points, forcing trade on rock guys isn't a good idea; maybe they will want to do it in the future, but it doesn't need to be dealt with now.
As for how to get Shipwright's Alliance to see a reason not to overextend by demanding like 10 times the number of their planets, I think we should offer rebuilding aid and a more beneficial trade agreement for 5 decades.

They probably want Zetraneum for gas giant and the possibility of fuel that will come from it, so offering a similar deal to the one Mashan Temple Authority, seems good to me.

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Utterly against this, since, "Oh yeah, we'll offer them a deal where they get to exploit this Feral System for its resources" is... obviously not going to end well?

 

[Alectai]

[ ] Plan: Context motherfuckers!
-[ ] Smile, nod, then show a simplified map of the progression of 621's infiltration and near subversion of the entire Protectorate of Neon--a highly industrialized sub-sector with two major choke points between them and 621, and how the only reason that 621 hadn't incalculably expanded its sacrifice potential and industrial base is because the Glimmering Federation and the Lamenters were there to tackle them. Don't claim we haven't been fighting this war until the last minute, the only reason 621 didn't have thrice or more the strength they did comes down to us meeting their attack on this front head on.
--[ ] We understand they have concerns, we understand their information isn't perfect, but please, do not treat us as opportunists who swept in out of nowhere, we've been locking horns with the Great Enemy in one shape or another since the dawn of M42.
---[ ] As such, stand our ground on our requests for keeping what we've held. That being said we're willing to negotiate on Yivv for joint ownership, our main interest there is attempting to develop methods of reclaiming land that had been twisted by the Enemy's machinations, but haven't yet crossed the point of absolute no return. If we can be allowed to claim Tom and as a testbed for such reclamation processes, we'll be willing to cede the remaining worlds to the Shipbuilder's alliance for compensation.
----[ ] Truthfully, it's more "Zetraneum doesn't really want people from space there any more", and we're not so desperate that we want to force the issue, our interest there was chiefly guaranteeing their independence. If you had a specific plan to do otherwise with them, we're all ears to hear them out, but we're not especially keen of fighting a war of liberation only to put them to work somewhere else ourselves.

Remember, the real value in Yivv is on Tom--a planet that's presently unsettled for obvious reasons, we can cede the other worlds if we can get them to let us treat Tom as what amounts to being a reclamation testbed... And honestly, that's something we probably want to take a stab at anyway, because like hell are we going to leave a place as a Chaos Wasteland forever if we can do something about it. The Auramite is what we're actually interested in, but we don't need to tell them that, just tell them something equally true.

 

[Profilozof]

Utterly against this, since, "Oh yeah, we'll offer them a deal where they get to exploit this Feral System for its resources" is... obviously not going to end well?

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I may be stupid and mistook star for a gas giant

 

[The Laurent]

Nah, I'm against, like, trying to "Prove ourselves" or whatever. It pisses me off, sure, but let's keep our eyes on what's likely. We're negotiating, not trying to make them admit that actually we deserve a gold star.

 

[Amilia]

The thing with the Shipwright's Alliance, if we say no and the Mashan won't support them, they can't really do much.

So I support Laurent's plan of getting Mashan's support and keeping Yivv.

 

[Profilozof]

-[ ] Smile, nod, then show a simplified map of the progression of 621's infiltration and near subversion of the entire Protectorate of Neon--a highly industrialized sub-sector with two major choke points, and how the only reason that 621 hadn't literally doubled its sacrifice and industrial base is because the Glimmering Federation and the Lamenters were there to tackle them. Don't claim we haven't been fighting this war until the last minute, the only reason 621 didn't have thrice the strength they did comes down to us meeting their attack on this front head on.

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I would add the context of us also needing to stabilise said whole subsector so it doesn't explode again while the force of chaos undivided were divided again because dying because supply lines were cut is a bad way to die.

 

[aceraptor]

For Yivv, the most important thing we want from that system is the planet Tom. The Shipwrights can have the rest of the system, but we want that world.

So, while getting clay is all well and good, I think we should be more reasonable.

So, here's a proposal:

[] Plan: Compromise with View For the Future
-[] Weznicritt and Kalikrax returned to the Shipwrights Alliance
-[] Offer a compromise for Yivv system- the Shipwrights Alliance can have claim and control over most of the system (Love's Huff, Broken Line, Fixxy) but the Federation claims control over the planet Tom and free movement to and from Tom.
-[] Civilian Trade Agreement between the Federation and the Shipwright Alliance.
-[] The Mashan Authority retains Murrs but will allow a recovery mission for the Holy Data-Banks and offer a minimum of Refined Metals or a set percentage of all mined metals upon Murrs, whichever is higher, in return for a century.
-[] Federation offers support to the Shipwright's Alliance for uplifting Zetraneum.
-[] Shipwright's Alliance and the Mashan Temple Authority will establish an embassy in Federation.

I guess something like this might work?

 

[Alectai]

The thing with the Shipwright's Alliance, if we say no and the Mashan won't support them, they can't really do much.

So I support Laurent's plan of getting Mashan's support and keeping Yivv.

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I feel like the Mashan will support them simply because they don't want us to take advantage somehow. The two have been surprisingly lockstep while Mashan's been extremely bullish towards us, which suggests they've Figured Out a Thing or Two (Rightly or wrongly) and consider us a potential threat.

Supporting the Shipwright's Alliance's claims--even at their own expense--and then getting very bullish on any point we make, suggests they're trying a Divide and Conquer strategy on us.

 

[Profilozof]

The thing with the Shipwright's Alliance, if we say no and the Mashan won't support them, they can't really do much.

So I support Laurent's plan of getting Mashan's support and keeping Yivv.

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I personally think we should make some concessions to show that we are fully opportunistic; giving up a not important planet and its moon in Yiff would probably show that, while not costing us much, and with the right diplomacy, we would get them back when absorbing the Shipwright's Alliance in the possible future. We should not burn all of the bridges by wanting to hold a planet that doesn't hold as much value as the other one in said system.

 

[blankmask]

[] Plan: No. And Yes.
-[] Straight up refuse all demands for Yivv. Have the Temple Authority back you, or try to win their support in this.
-[] Similarly, Zentraneum is not theirs, even if it's not yours either in the sense of exploitation.
-[] Sure, I suppose you (Alliance) can have Weznicritt and Kalikrax.
-[] Civilian Trade with Shipwright's Good.
-[] Embassy with both good.
-[] The Temple Authority can have Murrs, they've offered the better price, also suggest them backing our insistence on holding Yivv and the neutrality/protectorate stuff with Zentraneum, or at least try to use the agreement to surrender Murrs to them to spur cooperation.

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To the shipwrights alliance:

Ok, so, we're keeping Yivv. We fought for it, we're keeping it. We're not giving you Zentraneum either. We're fine with backing off on Weznicritt. We like the trade agreement, maybe we can weight it in your favor a bit.

To the Temple Authority:

We'll support your bid for Murrs if you'll support ours for Yivv. We'll back off on civilian trade. Otherwise…. Yeah we're pretty good.

To everyone:

So we all like the embassy idea? Great. Let's do that.

-[ ] Smile, nod, then show a simplified map of the progression of 621's infiltration and near subversion of the entire Protectorate of Neon--a highly industrialized sub-sector with two major choke points, and how the only reason that 621 hadn't literally doubled its sacrifice and industrial base is because the Glimmering Federation and the Lamenters were there to tackle them. Don't claim we haven't been fighting this war until the last minute, the only reason 621 didn't have thrice the strength they did comes down to us meeting their attack on this front head on.

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Chaos was trying to chaos and we stopped them. We've not been sitting on our hands here.

 

[Whenyouseeyou]

Oh man I can't wait for them to realize they fuck up and come back asking us for aid and then we absorb them

 

[Chronic]

I mean, honestly the Shipwright's stuff is a lot more egregious.

Current Casualties (just in the latest decade)
[31%] of all sent Ground Troops

We were sending, like, a vast number of ground troops. We had people dying by the hundreds of thousands or millions and they're like, "Well lol the Lamenters were the ones actually dying."

Click to shrink...

I mean, that's probably less than a tenth of a percent of what the Alliance lost to Chaos, so I can see where they are coming from. In a way, we are the USA doing an Overlord to finish off Nazi Germany after the Soviet Union had already spent tens of millions of lives fighting them and then deciding to keep the western half of Germany in our sphere. We can keep our gains, but I'd expect that to result in a Cold War with the Alliance in the long run. They'll resent us.

 

[LostOne]

If all that was supposed to be a "you should have interfered earlier" it would make a lot of sense.

I think we meant "if the HUMANS give you trouble you can talk to us, they were part of a extremely xenophobic government for over 10K years after all and the Federation positive stance on non-human life is quite rare in human circles so they might try to burn you all to death ." but instead they heard "you Xenos are surely incapable of caring for humans properly", I guess they are still sore from the Great Crusade.

 

[Profilozof]

For Yivv, the most important thing we want from that system is the planet Tom. The Shipwrights can have the rest of the system, but we want that world.

So, while getting clay is all well and good, I think we should be more reasonable.

So, here's a proposal:

[] Plan: Compromise with View For the Future
-[] Weznicritt and Kalikrax returned to the Shipwrights Alliance
-[] Offer a compromise for Yivv system- the Shipwrights Alliance can have claim and control over most of the system (Love's Huff, Broken Line, Fixxy) but the Federation claims control over the planet Tom and free movement to and from Tom.
-[] Civilian Trade Agreement between the Federation and the Shipwright Alliance.
-[] The Mashan Authority retains Murrs but will allow a recovery mission for the Holy Data-Banks and offer a minimum of Refined Metals or a set percentage of all mined metals upon Murrs, whichever is higher, in return for a century.
-[] Federation offers support to the Shipwright's Alliance for uplifting Zetraneum.
-[] Shipwright's Alliance and the Mashan Temple Authority will establish an embassy in Federation.

I guess something like this might work?

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I personally don't agree with giving up Fixxy, it would reveal our hand that Tom, despite being a corrupted wasteland, is important to us; keeping both it and Fixxy, on the other hand, makes it look like we gave up the better part of the system to the alliance while keeping the worse half for research reasons and its logistical backup.

As for Zetraneum, I agree with @Alectai 's point, so I disagree. Not to mention that it could easily turn into a colonial rivalry between the two of us and cause problems akin to bloody Kansas in the USA.

I also wouldn't mention Mash Authority's plan in that way. I might agree with them, but otherwise, I would not mention it as we would order them to.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

It's that they view us that way, we could if we were assholes beat both of them up, especially the Shipwright's Alliance. They just... don't see it that way.

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Again, keep in mind that the Mashan have 3 separate fleets that are equal in power to our own navy and we don't even have the full picture for how big they are. I doubt they could fully defeat us, but drive us out of 621 and lock it down? Yeah, probably.

Really, this is what happens when you don't give your all for the war effort when your nominal allies are. If we wanted a bigger piece of the pie, we should have been more aggressive

 

[vsh]

Nah, I'm against, like, trying to "Prove ourselves" or whatever. It pisses me off, sure, but let's keep our eyes on what's likely. We're negotiating, not trying to make them admit that actually we deserve a gold star.

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Mashan brought "your assumptions are so infuriating you don't get a trade deal you want" to the table, opening way for "your assumptions are so infuriating you don't get a planet" argument, I think it's a good response. We're not just being pissed for no reason, we're using arguments that they assume to hold weight.

In general, yeah, I think their arguments hold enough weight to consider them seriously.

 

[Alectai]

Again, keep in mind that the Mashan have 3 separate fleets that are equal in power to our own navy and we don't even have the full picture for how big they are. I doubt they could fully defeat us, but drive us out of 621 and lock it down? Yeah, probably.

Really, this is what happens when you don't give your all for the war effort when your nominal allies are. If we wanted a bigger piece of the pie, we should have been more aggressive

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Look, claiming we didn't "Give it our all" when we committed our entire mobile force to the fight and then launched a separate ground invasion on top of that is ridiculous. We'd have been hard pressed to move much faster than we did given how Neon had just settled the fuck down when this all caught fire, problems caused by 621 in the first place, including the fucking Space Marines they had at the time (Which seemed to have disappeared afterwards)

 

[HeroCooky]

I guess they are still sore from the Great Crusade.

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Nope. A major part of their currently dominant interpretation of their faith is that All Sophonts Deserve Their Dignity Enshrined. Yo offering to take the humans "should they give you trouble" was perceived as you saying "you cannot follow through on a Major Tenet of your faith" by the Diplomats there. Count into that part that the majority of humans currently in the sub-sector knew either Chaos or the Mashan when not under a Human Government, and there just hasn't been any incidents without Chaos involved.

Also multiple generations of humans grew up under the Mashan, so there is that too.

 

[Profilozof]

@HeroCooky does the Alliance have other systems in the neighbouring sub-sector and if yes how many, their attempt to colonise Zetraneum (it is probably their weakest claim and I don't agree on letting them get away with it) again seems like an over-extension given that they need to fix a lot of wartime damage of all of the other planets that they will now own again.

I think that we should offer our help with the rebuilding of their unconquered systems and give up half of Yiff (and probably explain the statistics of how many people died on our side and that we are the material and manpower suppliers of the lamenters and you can't win a war without weapons), also maybe explain to the rockbois that we didn't doubt their judgement but our fellow humans who have 11k+ years of not exactly coping well with Xenos.