Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[bluntblade]

Yeah that sequence was intense. Overall, I haven't read the new run yet, the Vader comics really knock it out of the park.

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I'm waiting for Wordery to get Vol 2 onwards in stock. Impatiently.

Also, I read Matt Stover's novelisation of RotS and damn, he really did make that story good. Also, seeing the Forms portrayed in a story has really helped my writing in that regard

 

[kjyl]

Yeah, in all the lore I've found, yellow does suit Rey down to the ground - at least her TFA/TLJ self. I don't see Cal as treading close to the Dark Side, though I suppose you could count

Spoiler

his guilt over Jaro Tapal and his fear of being reduced to something like what Trilla has become

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Yeah, the bleeding thing I really like, now I've seen it play out in Soule's run in the Vader comics.

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Eh that's kind of what I meant by it being kind of like astrology as to me Rey is a bit of a blank slate, but you can see those traits in her so to you it makes sense.

I mean there are really no jedi characters who the various color meanings don't make some kind of sense

that's kind of why bleeding is the exception to me, because it's a conscious choice, which really goes back to what I think the light side dark side divide is.

it's not that light is yang and the dark yin, the light is both yin and yang, the dark is the imbalance of those forces.

Like Anakin did not fall because he loved Padame, he fell because he wanted to posses her, he loved selfishly. I would say what if instead of thinking she would die, he thought that she would leave him, except we see that and he force chokes her.

anyway on a meta level some color coding as shorthand isn't really that bad, see the transformers for an example, but at the risk of nerd lore* levels of jackassery.




*lore is useful, it can build audience understanding, and be useful. But it should always be supportive and in service to the story. Nerdlore is restrictive and petty where the story has to service the lore. Exactly where each ends and begins is a subject of great debate.

re fallen order

Spoiler

Cal was also using his masters crystal/lightsaber while in a bad head space there is an argument to be made there.

 

[bluntblade]

Oh, agreed. Very prescriptive treatment of lore isn't my jam.

 

[TheColorPurple]

I was literally pacing and thinking about Star Wars for 3 hours straight.

I... may need a break from this franchise, though other things have been happening to bring me to this point.

 

[MagicMan333]

Eh, same thing's happening to me but that's cause of the fan rewrite of the prequels playing in my head. I really need to get update my Zelda fic a few more times before starting another project though.

 

[Neal Caffrey]

Eh, same thing's happening to me but that's cause of the fan rewrite of the prequels playing in my head. I really need to get update my Zelda fic a few more times before starting another project though.

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I feel you on a astral level, I have two projects and just recently have aquired an idea for a SW fic.

Wait now that I think about it...

Hey so since I think we can talk about SW fanfic over here, what would be more interesting in case Dooku survived order 66? Would he have gone off the deep end more or would he have gone to the light? Who would be the more interesting pic for an apprentice?

 

[BBadolato]

I have a fic in progress, and a few ideas on my mind with working with some revised sequels

I feel you on a astral level, I have two projects and just recently have aquired an idea for a SW fic.

Wait now that I think about it...

Hey so since I think we can talk about SW fanfic over here, what would be more interesting in case Dooku survived order 66? Would he have gone off the deep end more or would he have gone to the light? Who would be the more interesting pic for an apprentice?

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Dooku surviving Order 66 depends on when it happens. If this a theoretical Dooku that avoids capture in ROTS, then he might see himself as all the more justified for having done so, as Order 66 could be a self-fulfilling prophecy in his mind. If we are at a point where Palpatine urges Anakin to kill Dooku, but Obi-Wan wakes up and Dooku is captured alive, that puts a whole lot of things in play. He could become something closer to Ashoka a former Jedi disillusioned with the Order, but perhaps abandons all political aspirations.

 

[MagicMan333]

A lot of this depends on if the "do it" moment or an equivalent happens. It's pretty obvious (especially in Stover's adaptation) that Dooku thought he was going to have a place in Palpatine's New Galactic Order when the Clone Wars ended, though what form that would have taken is left up in the air. When Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him, Dooku comes to the horrifying realization that he was only ever a pawn to be sacrificed at the perfect moment. Hell, I think he'd realize the further implications of that moment and not react well to the fact that he's getting traded for Anakin Skywalker, who he's always been contemptuous of.

Now, it's possible that with some self-reflection and maybe some exposure to the realities of the Empire, he might return to the Light and go the Ahsoka route but with added guilt and horror in the face of what he was and what he helped create. But I think its more likely that, should he survive, that he ends up much as Maul ended up. A criminal on the run ruminating on Palpatine's betrayal and hungry for revenge. Hell, he might seek Maul out to see if it's possible for them to forge an alliance of failed apprentices out to avenge themselves on their former masters (though the long and short term viability of such an alliance is shaky at best).

Now, if for some reason (Dooku's somewhere else when the rescue happens, the fight against Anakin goes his way, or something else that makes it so Palpatine isn't in a position to cause him to die) he might end up remaining Palpatine's apprentice but I can't imagine that's going to last long no matter what. He's way too big a liability to be kept around after the Confederacy's defeated. He's a living link of Palpatine's involvement in the CIS that needs to be cut to as soon as possible for Palpatine's power to be secure. If he actually defeated and killed Anakin (fat chance), he might last a little longer but Palpatine's always looking for the new hotness when it comes to his number twos and there's bound to be a plucky young thing full of rage and hate that happens to be gullible as all hell coming along any day now (especially since he's got the Inquisitorious up and ready to go within months of Order 66 which shows that he already had the resources and procedures to find and train a full apprentice). Overall, Dooku's future wouldn't have looked bright.

The only thing I can think of (and its one hell of an if) is that he ends up leading a still extant Separatist cell (like the one we see in Rebels) and ends up the head of an insurgent faction. Honestly, this is the best ending for a Redeemed Dooku*. If he held on long enough and managed to collect enough Separatist man and material, he might survive long enough to join the larger Rebel Alliance. After that, he might meet Luke and the butterflies go fluttering away...

*I have a creeping suspicion that any such organization a Sith Dooku would lead would turn into something that would either burn out quickly or never be touched by the rebels with a ten foot pole.

 

[Neal Caffrey]

Those ideas sound interesting and are a good basis, I already kinda have a structure of a barebones premise.

So the story would focus on Dooku taking a new fallen jedi in his wing and that fallen jedi being in the Invisible Hand with him but not on his confrontation with the magic duo, the battles goes the same more or less but it only ends with Dooku losing his dueling hand and being about to be executed, he then get's rescued by his apprentice, who dies but he survives and is sent to a prision.

Now Palpatine doesn't let the jadi take him but cannot torture or kill him due to him being monitored, he is eventually forcefully taken to the temple just in time for order 66, this ends with him escaping and from there he starts plotting his revenge against everyone.

The only thing I can think of (and its one hell of an if) is that he ends up leading a still extant Separatist cell (like the one we see in Rebels) and ends up the head of an insurgent faction. Honestly, this is the best ending for a Redeemed Dooku*. If he held on long enough and managed to collect enough Separatist man and material, he might survive long enough to join the larger Rebel Alliance. After that, he might meet Luke and the butterflies go fluttering away...

*I have a creeping suspicion that any such organization a Sith Dooku would lead would turn into something that would either burn out quickly or never be touched by the rebels with a ten foot pole.

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Actually another kinda idea? I have is that Dooku allies with a few rebels and slowly he starts growimg his cell which eventually integrates into his allience, also was curious if I could make him have Merrin (Fallen Order) or Kanan as his padawan?

It's mainly a few ideas but I think I am close to finding enough to make this into a proper story.

 

[gyrobot]

Dooku was too much of an elitist to support the rebels, a human supremacist who helped laid the foundations of Order 66, under Tyrannus he would push for a theocracy where the religous beliefs of the Sith are laid out in the open. He would help prop up uprisings and make them as cruel and violent as possible, trying to subvert the rebels efforts to use moral reasons as the motivation to rebel as he thinks the notion of building a rebellion on Hope as a foolish idea and be a very strong motivator in pushing Saw to start attacking rebels for being soft and tell him that the rebels are weaklings who would be trampled by the realities of war.

 

[bluntblade]

The RotS novelisation has the plan, as far as Dooku knows, being that Anakin will capture Dooku after Dooku kills Obi-Wan. The Separatists will be folded up, Grievous will be revealed to have been Behind It All along with the nonhumans of the Separatist leadership, and the Jedi Order dissolved while a Sith Army is raised with Anakin as its commander.

Only too late does Dooku realise he wasn't included in the endgame at all.

 

[MagicMan333]

Dooku was too much of an elitist to support the rebels, a human supremacist who helped laid the foundations of Order 66, under Tyrannus he would push for a theocracy where the religous beliefs of the Sith are laid out in the open. He would help prop up uprisings and make them as cruel and violent as possible, trying to subvert the rebels efforts to use moral reasons as the motivation to rebel as he thinks the notion of building a rebellion on Hope as a foolish idea and be a very strong motivator in pushing Saw to start attacking rebels for being soft and tell him that the rebels are weaklings who would be trampled by the realities of war.

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Thus why I specified an Atoner Dooku.

 

[kjyl]

Thus why I specified an Atoner Dooku.

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Eh Dooku was pretty high on the sith koolaid at that point, You would need one hell of an inciting event. Honestly I don't think even if he somehow got out of dying on the ship would do it.

Maybe something like Palps tells Anakin to do the dew, there is a big boom on the ship which separates Dooku from them and throwing him from the ship, he survives through force bullshitery, but is heavily injured and if found and nursed back to health , in the corsicant under city by bothans or some alien species. During which he has force visions courtesy of Qui gon.

Two possible branches here either he sleeps through order 66 or possibly to the middle of its execution ( Dooku vs Anakin to save the younglings seems like a neat scene) and then goes off to help the rebellion rebuild the jedi etc etc.

Or option two Palps gets hurt in the ship crash and gets put in a space coma which delays his plans and ends up with Dooku saving the Jedi and the republic.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

The RotS novelisation has the plan, as far as Dooku knows, being that Anakin will capture Dooku after Dooku kills Obi-Wan. The Separatists will be folded up, Grievous will be revealed to have been Behind It All along with the nonhumans of the Separatist leadership, and the Jedi Order dissolved while a Sith Army is raised with Anakin as its commander.

Only too late does Dooku realise he wasn't included in the endgame at all.

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Man that...makes Dooku look super dumb?

Like by the time of the Clone Wars he's fully in the tank as a Sith, knows that the Sith's entire schtick is frontstabbing each other as soon as its convenient, and yet he's cool with Palpatine doing some kind of Kansas City Shuffle that somehow gets Anakin on their side and keeps him alive? Even though he knows for a fact that Palpatine is a Lying Liar Who Lies (and whose entire master plan relies on running cons within cons within cons that are like quadruple crosses), he never suspects that he's being set up as an obvious patsy whose gonna get killed the instant Palpatine is in power? Man, what a mess of a character.

As for "What if Dooku survives?", that backasswards reasoning ("I can't believe the leopard that eats faces ate MY face!") can tee that story up pretty well - just have Dooku wise up to Palpatine's (incredibly obvious) plan to betray him, so he comes up with some contingency. I dunno, he goes underground and takes Maul's role in the criminal underworld or something, basically just deciding to fuck with Palpatine's new order as much as possible out of pure spite.

 

[Axslashel]

Man that...makes Dooku look super dumb?

Like by the time of the Clone Wars he's fully in the tank as a Sith, knows that the Sith's entire schtick is frontstabbing each other as soon as its convenient, and yet he's cool with Palpatine doing some kind of Kansas City Shuffle that somehow gets Anakin on their side and keeps him alive? Even though he knows for a fact that Palpatine is a Lying Liar Who Lies (and whose entire master plan relies on running cons within cons within cons that are like quadruple crosses), he never suspects that he's being set up as an obvious patsy whose gonna get killed the instant Palpatine is in power? Man, what a mess of a character.

As for "What if Dooku survives?", that backasswards reasoning ("I can't believe the leopard that eats faces ate MY face!") can tee that story up pretty well - just have Dooku wise up to Palpatine's (incredibly obvious) plan to betray him, so he comes up with some contingency. I dunno, he goes underground and takes Maul's role in the criminal underworld or something, basically just deciding to fuck with Palpatine's new order as much as possible out of pure spite.

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Yeah that plan sounds really stupid. I always just assumed that Dooku totally believed that he could kill Anakin and prove to Palpatine that he was the superior apprentice.

 

[Reveen]

Man, what a mess of a character.

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I mean, Dooku kinda makes intuitive sense to me as a guy who's on paper smart, but his head is wedged so far up his own ass from aristocratic pride that it doesn't occur to him that Palpatine would ever cast him away in favour of a lesser even with evidence staring him in the face. He see's himself as a Napoleon figure who's too valuable in his role as the supreme military leader of the Confederacy for his master to just bump him off. He probably thought he was a shoe-in for a strong place in the new galactic order.

Of course that doesn't count for bad writing and inconsistencies between portrayals. But that's the Saruman vibe I get from his character in a general sense.

 

[bluntblade]

Man that...makes Dooku look super dumb?

Like by the time of the Clone Wars he's fully in the tank as a Sith, knows that the Sith's entire schtick is frontstabbing each other as soon as its convenient, and yet he's cool with Palpatine doing some kind of Kansas City Shuffle that somehow gets Anakin on their side and keeps him alive? Even though he knows for a fact that Palpatine is a Lying Liar Who Lies (and whose entire master plan relies on running cons within cons within cons that are like quadruple crosses), he never suspects that he's being set up as an obvious patsy whose gonna get killed the instant Palpatine is in power? Man, what a mess of a character.

As for "What if Dooku survives?", that backasswards reasoning ("I can't believe the leopard that eats faces ate MY face!") can tee that story up pretty well - just have Dooku wise up to Palpatine's (incredibly obvious) plan to betray him, so he comes up with some contingency. I dunno, he goes underground and takes Maul's role in the criminal underworld or something, basically just deciding to fuck with Palpatine's new order as much as possible out of pure spite.

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It plays well enough on the page, and it does lean very hard into Dooku's arrogance. So it's not so much him being super dumb as him just being stupendously arrogant and not realising that the grand plan has a few more steps than he thinks.

 

[kjyl]

It seems like all sith have a flaw, for palpatine it's gluttony, for Anakin/Vader it's selfishness, for Dooku it's hubris or pride.

Dooku also strikes me as the end result of a lot of "Grey" Jedi have to look forward to.

But anyway you cannot get to an atoner Dooku without him breaking his pride.

 

[MagicMan333]

There's a reason that one the biggest complaints about the RotS novelization is Dooku's characterization. But it's obvious that the form Dark Side corruption took with Dooku was in part a form of overwhelming arrogance. He thinks he's special and important to the point that Palpatine would never actually get rid of him despite all evidence to the contrary.

I imagine Palpatine had to keep from laughing a lot when dealing with Dooku.

Also, did everyone ignore the fact that I said that Redeemed Dooku was by far the least likely scenario and it's far more likely he pulls a Maul? Like, I said it was possible. I didn't say it was in any way likely.

 

[BBadolato]

I feel looking at how Dooku was written, or really just the lack of, It just screams the prequels relied too much on Palpatine playing 88th dimensional parallel universe chess, and everyone else being some form glue eating idiot or just unlucky.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

It plays well enough on the page, and it does lean very hard into Dooku's arrogance. So it's not so much him being super dumb as him just being stupendously arrogant and not realising that the grand plan has a few more steps than he thinks.

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There's a point where arrogance becomes straight gullibility. It's one thing if Dooku is so arrogant he thinks he can sidestep Palpatine's (very, very obvious) trap for him and be the one to lead the New Order himself (or whatever), but it's another for him to somehow forget that the Sith's entire thing is betrayal at the first opportunity.

I mean, he knows for a fact that Sidious is actually Chancellor Palpatine and that the whole Clone Wars was some astroturfed bullshit the two of them cooked up to allow the Sith to seize control of the galaxy...and he never thought to make like a video saying "Hey if you're watching this I'm dead and Palpatine's Behind It All" or something?

Shit, why not just blurt that out when Anakin's debating whether or not to chop his head off? Your hands are gone, your boss is going full Dew It, you've got nothing to lose bruh.

I feel looking at how Dooku was written, or really just the lack of, It just screams the prequels relied too much on Palpatine playing 88th dimensional parallel universe chess, and everyone else being some form glue eating idiot or just unlucky.

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Yeah that's the overarching problem with the PT - all the characterization is done after the fact in order to explain around Lucas' first draft writing, with the films being weirdly coy about Sidious identity. TPM straight up ends with PALPATINE'S BEHIND IT ALL, but then AOTC is suddenly "Oooh wouldn't you like to know the Secret Sith Lord???? What could be their plan??????????", and then ROTS is like two hours of the heroes running around doing unrelated shit before having their minds blown that Palpatine is, in fact, behind it all.

 

[bluntblade]

There's a point where arrogance becomes straight gullibility. It's one thing if Dooku is so arrogant he thinks he can sidestep Palpatine's (very, very obvious) trap for him and be the one to lead the New Order himself (or whatever), but it's another for him to somehow forget that the Sith's entire thing is betrayal at the first opportunity.

I mean, he knows for a fact that Sidious is actually Chancellor Palpatine and that the whole Clone Wars was some astroturfed bullshit the two of them cooked up to allow the Sith to seize control of the galaxy...and he never thought to make like a video saying "Hey if you're watching this I'm dead and Palpatine's Behind It All" or something?

Shit, why not just blurt that out when Anakin's debating whether or not to chop his head off? Your hands are gone, your boss is going full Dew It, you've got nothing to lose bruh.

Yeah that's the overarching problem with the PT - all the characterization is done after the fact in order to explain around Lucas' first draft writing, with the films being weirdly coy about Sidious identity. TPM straight up ends with PALPATINE'S BEHIND IT ALL, but then AOTC is suddenly "Oooh wouldn't you like to know the Secret Sith Lord???? What could be their plan??????????", and then ROTS is like two hours of the heroes running around doing unrelated shit before having their minds blown that Palpatine is, in fact, behind it all.

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Yeah, it might be that it works in the moment but then falls down, but yeah, the whole thing with Palpatine's identity does keep being a bit of a pain. At the end of the day, Lucas had an idea which doesn't totally work but got caught up in how clever he was being, and never went back to make it work.

Side note: petty logic gap which just occurred to me for AotC. Yoda gets a gunship up to Dooku's hangar and... that gunship just bogs off? Like, he doesn't take the Clones with him to secure the two wounded Jedi?

I feel looking at how Dooku was written, or really just the lack of, It just screams the prequels relied too much on Palpatine playing 88th dimensional parallel universe chess, and everyone else being some form glue eating idiot or just unlucky.

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Trish from Lessons From The Screenplay has a good line on this (in their podcast episode on the Prequels): Palpatine would work way better if he was responding to events and rolling with the punches, rather than being a million steps ahead of everyone else. The novel of RotS goes some way towards fixing this, but you can only repair so much.

She also makes a great point about the Anakin/Padme romance: it's what happens when your romance is never, ever subtext. Like, regardless of anyone's position on FinnRose, those two characters have their opinions of one another changed and watch one another grow. Same with Han and Leia, over a couple of films.

With Anakin and Padme? It's just this fated romance that kinda happens as the movie grinds to a halt, and then it's all "we are in love but it is forbidden, and I can't break the bonds of forbidden-ness no matter how much I love you. Actually, I don't care that it's forbidden, I love you too much to not be in love with you."

 

[TheColorPurple]

I feel looking at how Dooku was written, or really just the lack of, It just screams the prequels relied too much on Palpatine playing 88th dimensional parallel universe chess, and everyone else being some form glue eating idiot or just unlucky.

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Nah, the prequels benefited from Palpatine; Dooku is overrated and is nothing more than a pawn that was played right to the end.

 

[BossFight]

A lot of this depends on if the "do it" moment or an equivalent happens. It's pretty obvious (especially in Stover's adaptation) that Dooku thought he was going to have a place in Palpatine's New Galactic Order when the Clone Wars ended, though what form that would have taken is left up in the air. When Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him, Dooku comes to the horrifying realization that he was only ever a pawn to be sacrificed at the perfect moment. Hell, I think he'd realize the further implications of that moment and not react well to the fact that he's getting traded for Anakin Skywalker, who he's always been contemptuous of.

Now, it's possible that with some self-reflection and maybe some exposure to the realities of the Empire, he might return to the Light and go the Ahsoka route but with added guilt and horror in the face of what he was and what he helped create. But I think its more likely that, should he survive, that he ends up much as Maul ended up. A criminal on the run ruminating on Palpatine's betrayal and hungry for revenge. Hell, he might seek Maul out to see if it's possible for them to forge an alliance of failed apprentices out to avenge themselves on their former masters (though the long and short term viability of such an alliance is shaky at best).

Now, if for some reason (Dooku's somewhere else when the rescue happens, the fight against Anakin goes his way, or something else that makes it so Palpatine isn't in a position to cause him to die) he might end up remaining Palpatine's apprentice but I can't imagine that's going to last long no matter what. He's way too big a liability to be kept around after the Confederacy's defeated. He's a living link of Palpatine's involvement in the CIS that needs to be cut to as soon as possible for Palpatine's power to be secure. If he actually defeated and killed Anakin (fat chance), he might last a little longer but Palpatine's always looking for the new hotness when it comes to his number twos and there's bound to be a plucky young thing full of rage and hate that happens to be gullible as all hell coming along any day now (especially since he's got the Inquisitorious up and ready to go within months of Order 66 which shows that he already had the resources and procedures to find and train a full apprentice). Overall, Dooku's future wouldn't have looked bright.

The only thing I can think of (and its one hell of an if) is that he ends up leading a still extant Separatist cell (like the one we see in Rebels) and ends up the head of an insurgent faction. Honestly, this is the best ending for a Redeemed Dooku*. If he held on long enough and managed to collect enough Separatist man and material, he might survive long enough to join the larger Rebel Alliance. After that, he might meet Luke and the butterflies go fluttering away...

*I have a creeping suspicion that any such organization a Sith Dooku would lead would turn into something that would either burn out quickly or never be touched by the rebels with a ten foot pole.

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Honestly, the idea of a repentant Count Dooku who has to start living the lie, who feels horrible for what he has done but can never actually acknowledge his guilt to others because it would destroy the morale of the seperatist movement is just *Chef's kiss*

 

[Neal Caffrey]

Honestly, the idea of a repentant Count Dooku who has to start living the lie, who feels horrible for what he has done but can never actually acknowledge his guilt to others because it would destroy the morale of the seperatist movement is just *Chef's kiss*

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YES, this is exactly what I have been having in mind, the story I have been kinda brewing is meant to be him slowly becoming a better person while still getting the aftershocks of what he did, you becoming a good person doesn't mean that consequences don't happen to you for what you did, I have also this idea of him taking a surviving nightsister into his wing and exploring the guilt he would feel for basicaly have ordered a genocide, sure Talzin was kinda of a bastard and she kinda tried to murder him a lot of times, but that still doesn't mean the extermination of a culture doesn't weigh heavily in his mind.