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Star Wars General Discussion Thread

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Admittedly monarchs who were elected by the vote of all free men and citizens or electors or were chosen by lets say having the army proclaim them king was something that was a thing in the ancient and medieval world though though the backstory Padme's election as Queen in some ways sort of vaguely makes me how the roman senate in the Roman Kingdom would vet candidates before presenting them to the roman people only with secret evil space wizard Palpatine doing the preselection process instead of some sort of formal body.
 
Elective monarchy was indeed a thing. Or as the joke goes... in a democracy your vote counts, in a feudal system your count votes. It's likely, though never touched on unfortunately, that Naboo's nobility did the voting.
 
It occurred to me, while looking at the Darth Vader comic where he has a vision of killing Palpatine with a green lightsaber, that Return of the Jedi has a recurring theme of prisoners/slaves killing their captors with the tools/symbols of their enslavement:
  • Leia strangling Jabba with her own chains.
  • Anakin killing Palpatine with his own torture suit.

Arthur Frayn said:
Instead Anakin basically spends all of AotC begging Padme to fuck him and alternatively laughing it off as him just being this teenage goofball or telling him they can't because...she's a Senator or something? Then, out of nowhere, she's like "Actually yeah I love you too let's get married".
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Anakin is intentionally a whiny teenager, not a mature adult space wizard samurai monk.

It's not a glamorous, symbolic relationship, it's two young people having a whirlwind marriage and then it becoming toxic over the course of a couple years, culminating in the guy losing his mind over the thought that the gal might die or choose to leave him, and eventually killing her.

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The same thing happened with Padmé in Episode I, when she had this very stilted dialogue as the Queen. And also with Hayden in Episode II. He said, "I don't want to be this whiny kid." I said, "Well, you are. You gotta be a whiny teenager."

Like father, like son.

He said, "I want to be Darth Vader." I said, "You gotta be a petulant young Jedi. You're not going to be the guy you thought you'd be when you signed your contract." Hayden was grateful for this last movie, where he actually got to be Darth Vader.
 
Astrid Fornhoff said:
Elective monarchy was indeed a thing. Or as the joke goes... in a democracy your vote counts, in a feudal system your count votes.
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Ironically, I'm pretty sure the Count Palatine was the only Count among the Electors. But "Count, Duke, Margrave, or Prince-Bishop" doesn't roll off the tongue, or fit the wordplay.
 
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RadiantPhoenix said:
It occurred to me, while looking at the Darth Vader comic where he has a vision of killing Palpatine with a green lightsaber, that Return of the Jedi has a recurring theme of prisoners/slaves killing their captors with the tools/symbols of their enslavement:
  • Leia strangling Jabba with her own chains.
  • Anakin killing Palpatine with his own torture suit.
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Ewoks commandeering an AT-ST (albeit with Chewbacca's help).
 
RadiantPhoenix said:
It occurred to me, while looking at the Darth Vader comic where he has a vision of killing Palpatine with a green lightsaber, that Return of the Jedi has a recurring theme of prisoners/slaves killing their captors with the tools/symbols of their enslavement:
  • Leia strangling Jabba with her own chains.
  • Anakin killing Palpatine with his own torture suit.


Anakin is intentionally a whiny teenager, not a mature adult space wizard samurai monk.

It's not a glamorous, symbolic relationship, it's two young people having a whirlwind marriage and then it becoming toxic over the course of a couple years, culminating in the guy losing his mind over the thought that the gal might die or choose to leave him, and eventually killing her.

Article:
The same thing happened with Padmé in Episode I, when she had this very stilted dialogue as the Queen. And also with Hayden in Episode II. He said, "I don't want to be this whiny kid." I said, "Well, you are. You gotta be a whiny teenager."

Like father, like son.

He said, "I want to be Darth Vader." I said, "You gotta be a petulant young Jedi. You're not going to be the guy you thought you'd be when you signed your contract." Hayden was grateful for this last movie, where he actually got to be Darth Vader.
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...okay? "It's intentionally a shitty romance!" isn't a good defense?

Like I'm genuinely confused as to what you mean. Just because Lucas intended for Anakin to be a dipshit whiny teenager doesn't mean he made the right choice. And if it's meant to be a whirlwind romance that ends badly, then why implicitly hinge Anakin's redemption on his love for Padme?

It doesn't matter what you're aiming at if you miss the target.
 
Stop: Rule 3
  • Staff Post
    • RadiantPhoenix said:
    Back to front:
    • Those quotes don't show Grievous (who is not a droid) fighting to liberate droids, they show him fighting to kill Jedi.
    • Emotions that do not rule the person having them are no less real than those that consume and destroy their person. You advocate for the latter, because you relish in destruction.
    • So you endorse genocide.
    • That is not how canon works. Canon Star Wars has become a large fandom with lots of stuff in it. KOTOR was never part of the main Star Wars universe, except to the extent that it mimicked the main Star Wars universe exactly.
    • You specifically said "If it doesn't appear in The Attack of the Clones movie, I won't discuss it". How does it feel to make yourself a liar?
    • The Jedi Order wasn't involved in the creation of the clones. Dooku, who left the order years prior and was already a Sith, was.
    • The droids would have started shooting when they noticed Mace anyway.
    • Jedi are duly authorized law enforcement officers you disingenuous genocide-supporter!
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    rule 3
    Your escalation to calling someone a genocide supporter for not liking Jedi is absolutely unacceptable.
     
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    • Information: We Are Not a Blugeon
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    • kittygirl said:
    Yes. And I'm not afraid of revolution. Cops have treated me personally like garbage. Like a punching bag. They locked me in a small room for days on end. So yes, if cops would like to prove something about themselves and their capacity to do good rather than evil, they should overthrow a corrupt court, just not install a "One True Leader" like Palpatine or Anakin.


    You're a mess. You're rehashed nonsense. For real. You don't show the basic level of civility. I'm done talking to you and I'm going to report any future posts you make to me.

    I don't care if "the Republic" backed them because "The Republic" is a bunch of senators not the common people. I could see common people having an issue that they could be faced with death, mind control, whatever some overpowered thugs want.

    All that other stuff came from the comics. I only consider the Phantom Menace movie. And duh they support the nasty sh** their Master wants, and I don't like that part, but I liked Maul in Phantom Menace because he was a cool fighter and had a calm, scary aesthetic. Not the genocide. For real. You're wildly insulting me and you think this is good debate? Leave. Me. Alone. Please.
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    we are not a blugeon
    Hey.

    The staff is not a bludgeon to threaten users with. If you are going to report someone, report them. Don't say that you're going to or threaten to. I ultimately don't think that this was severe enough to act on but I am asking you not to do it again. If you feel that other people are violating the rules then you need to tell us, not tell them that you're going to tell us.
     
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    • I do feel like we've all ended up in the weeds here. Though the main takeaway I have is that while, yes, the Prequels were more cohesive, man was the writing just as feeble as TRoS'.

    Gonna go out on a limb here: I will never understand how the Darth Plagueis monologue became iconic. Because it's just a lecture between two people who are sitting down.
     
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    bluntblade said:
    Gonna go out on a limb here: I will never understand how the Darth Plagueis monologue became iconic. Because it's just a lecture between two people who are sitting down.
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    The memes, Jack.
    Slightly more seriously, Ian McDiarmid fucking delivered every time he was on screen. Also memes.
     
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    FortePlus said:
    The memes, Jack.
    Slightly more seriously, Ian McDiarmid fucking delivered every time he was on screen. Also memes.
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    Almost the only person who did.

    Side note: I think one of the less-discussed ways that the impulse to remake Episode VI hurt IX was to redo the Endor three-way split. Ostensibly the characters' journeys are of coming together to fight as a team, but the onscreen events contradict that.
     
    FortePlus said:
    If I were Hayden Christensen I'd be super salty that Ian got to be Darth Shitpost while he couldn't even get into the robot suit and instead had to angst and strain his facial muscles for 3 hours while being a whiny loser.

    What a waste.
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    Lucas let down almost all his actors, badly.

    Also, unpopular opinion: some illogical moments and one disappearing dagger does not remotely spoil my enjoyment of the TLJ throne room brawl. It still rips.
     
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    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    A hallmark of revolutionary rhetoric isn't merely naming enemies, but also rallying comrades to the cause, something we never see Grievous do, because he's completely self-centered.
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    Nah, he's working to end the tyranny of Jedi. And I think that's a worthwhile cause. And if we believe Mister or Miss RadiantPhoenix, General Grievous doesn't have to rally people to his cause, because they're all programmed to do whatever he wants. But if we believe me, General Grievous was trying to end the problem of Jedi being allowed to just kinda use their powers however they want and kill whoever they want.

    I know you don't believe Grievous wanted to end the threat of the Jedi using their powers unfairly but I do and I think that quote proved it. And meow I've noticed I'm getting warnings when people like RadiantPhoenix are calling me "dumbass" and sh**. What???

    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here. So I'll echo @Night's question.
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    I think you do have some idea of what I'm saying. I think all of you are very clear about what I'm trying to say. You're just feigning ignorance and kinda treating me like garbage. I don't even wanna discuss this anymore because you guys aren't making it fun. Debates about movies should be fun. And this is not.

    I am saying: "George Lucas wrote the Senate as being made up mostly of good people so we would support them over the Sith."

    Also: "George Lucas made the Sith act cartoonishly violent and evil so we would not support them at all."

    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    This is reading like edginess for the sake of it, honestly.
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    More insults. Why are insults "good debate?"

    Night said:
    That's good for you but it's not good for the situation at hand in the movie. You don't seem to grasp that overthrowing the Republic and replacing it with...what? isn't a good move. The Senate is the closest thing to democracy the galaxy's got. Replacing them with a Jediocracy wouldn't help. The Jedi are not representative; they are mediators and negotiators and trusted because they effectively speak for no one, have no ties to any place or people. No one will want to be ruled by them as such. There's no group waiting in the wings to usher into power, with a new plan or a new take, so the Jedi would have to take the reins themselves anyways.

    But in addition to the other issues, Palpatine has spent the war making sure people are primed not to accept them, stoking people's fears of their power. A Jedi coup isn't really a viable option. From a purely pragmatic perspective it might be better if someone had executed Palpatine before the trial in the Senate, but pure pragmatism is not a great road to head down in making a government.
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    Replace it with leaders who aren't corrupt. It's really that simple. It doesn't have to be Jedi. It doesn't have to be Sith. Maybe replace them with Droids. That'd do some good for the Senate since Droids aren't gonna like make rash judgments and stuff, what with their cold computer logic. Replace the Republic with anything that isn't corrupt. A democracy is not always un-corrupt, a democracy doesn't always serve the will of the people, kinda like in the USA where we have a "democracy" but only the rich politicians see much of the cream from the top.

    RadiantPhoenix said:
    If you don't care about the character, only their appearance, why are you diving into an argument about the characters? (Answer: because this is the motte of a motte-and-bailey argument)

    If you don't want people to respond to your posts about a topic, stop posting new posts about it.
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    I care about the character. Just not the genocide. You're the one that keeps sliding in that I support genocide. And meow you're throwing around five dollar words and pretending like I'm continuing this... asinine argument, that you started, and you are continuing. You don't get to become the King of the Star Wars thread just because you post a lot. And you won't intimidate me out of this thread. And if you continue to attempt to intimidate other participants out of this thread then I find that a terrible behavior that makes the website unfriendly to open discussion and debate.

    Red Orion said:
    Im catching up, so maybe I missed something, but if you're only considering TPM then why are you making claims about Grievous, a character who doesn't appear in that movie?
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    Sorry, RadiantPhoenix switched topics again, so I talked about Darth Maul and he had to bring in Darth Maul's actions from the comics. That's what I was referring to. I don't think it's fair to request Star Wars fans to read all the comics when we're only talking about the movies.
     
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    Grievous had legitimate beef with the Republic and the Jedi, but it's been filtered through deliberate mutilations to his brain. He's very much a liberator in name only - I mean, he's called Grievous.
     
    bluntblade said:
    Grievous had legitimate beef with the Republic and the Jedi, but it's been filtered through deliberate mutilations to his brain. He's very much a liberator in name only - I mean, he's called Grievous.
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    I know all the Sith-aligned people are supposed to represent toxic emotions and stuff. I just think that some of them had anti-heroic qualities. And somebody pointed out the Sith are kinda fascist, so meow I even feel bad about it, but my point is that just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't fight for a good cause.

    And honestly I'm losing interest in this debate. People on the opposite side aren't giving me a fair shake IMO.
     
    kittygirl said:
    I am saying: "George Lucas wrote the Senate as being made up mostly of good people so we would support them over the Sith."
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    I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from, and much as it pains me to recommend re-watching the Prequels to anyone, it might do your interpretation some good. Most of the Senators are not characterized at all. As a group, the Senate is constantly framed as weak-willed and corrupt. The few Senators to get characterization (primarily Padme and Organa) are framed as exceptions.
     
    We meet like...three senators total? One of them is Palpatine. The other two are Padme and Bail Organa.
     
    Yeah, and the Sith are taking advantage and encouraging that corruption. The Trade Federation had their own seat in the Senate, as did other corporations.

    Grevious was working with the side *led* by these corporations.

    It would be as if Amazon and Walmart each had their own personal voting Senator in the U.S. Senate, and then declared war against America because two Senators and bribes for many of the others wasn't enough power.
     
    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from, and much as it pains me to recommend re-watching the Prequels to anyone, it might do your interpretation some good. Most of the Senators are not characterized at all. As a group, the Senate is constantly framed as weak-willed and corrupt. The few Senators to get characterization (primarily Padme and Organa) are framed as exceptions.
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    I don't think the Senate was framed as being weak-willed and corrupt. And Padme wasn't, and we see a lot of her, and I don't remember the Senate actively hindering the Jedi or agreeing with Sith demands. So, they may be milquetoast politicians, but I don't remember them ever being framed as corrupt. And Padme was definitely not and we see a lot of her. I think the interpretation of the Senate being useless only works if you ignore the actions of Padme--and was Jar-Jar a Senator later? He didn't fuck up much at that I thought--and really, I'm seeing more people flood in to pick on my posts, who weren't even involved before.

    And one is staff.

    The Senate had useful members. You're just telling me they're all corrupt and useless because you want to win the debate. I keep asking you guys to leave me alone. And you put it on me. No, that's not how this works. The Senate was written as "good guys and girls" for sure, Padme and Jar-Jar (?) were two examples, so yeah like I don't need to rewatch anything and you are twisting my argument incorrectly.

    The Laurent said:
    Yeah, and the Sith are taking advantage and encouraging that corruption. The Trade Federation had their own seat in the Senate, as did other corporations.

    Grevious was working with the side *led* by these corporations.

    It would be as if Amazon and Walmart each had their own personal voting Senator in the U.S. Senate, and then declared war against America because two Senators and bribes for many of the others wasn't enough power.
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    It's not really like that. And if it is it's only because George Lucas wrote badly-written, transparent villains. It's more like: "A corporation has problems with another corporation that employs superheroes, puts out rhetoric that we don't need superheroes, and then declares war on them because the superheroes won't stay the F out of business that doesn't involve them."

    The Sith may be totes evil, but the Jedi are intrusive and micromanage sh** that isn't their biz, so if the Jedi would just stay in their temples and leave normal people, aliens, Droids and Cyborgs alone then we wouldn't even have half of these conflicts across the galaxy. The Jedi create conflicts with the Sith.
     
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    kittygirl said:
    I don't think the Senate was framed as being weak-willed and corrupt. And Padme wasn't, and we see a lot of her, and I don't remember the Senate actively hindering the Jedi or agreeing with Sith demands. So, they may be milquetoast politicians, but I don't remember them ever being framed as corrupt. And Padme was definitely not and we see a lot of her. I think the interpretation of the Senate being useless only works if you ignore the actions of Padme--and was Jar-Jar a Senator later? He didn't fuck up much at that I thought--and really, I'm seeing more people flood in to pick on my posts, who weren't even involved before.

    And one is staff.

    The Senate had useful members. You're just telling me they're all corrupt and useless because you want to win the debate. I keep asking you guys to leave me alone. And you put it on me. No, that's not how this works. The Senate was written as "good guys and girls" for sure, Padme and Jar-Jar (?) were two examples, so yeah like I don't need to rewatch anything and you are twisting my argument incorrectly.


    It's not really like that. And if it is it's only because George Lucas wrote badly-written, transparent villains. It's more like: "A corporation has problems with another corporation that employs superheroes, puts out rhetoric that we don't need superheroes, and then declares war on them because they won't stay the F out of business that doesn't involve them."

    The Sith may be totes evil, but the Jedi are intrusive and micromanage sh** that isn't their biz, so if the Jedi would just stay in their temples and leave normal people, aliens, Droids and Cyborgs alone then we wouldn't even have half of these conflicts across the galaxy. The Jedi create conflicts with the Sith.
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    That's a very shortsighted take. Like, you realize what the plot of Episode 1 was, right? The Trade Federation blockading a planet for daring to disagree with its policies? And then the Jedi stopped them?

    And thereafter the Trade Federation then got together with a bunch of other people and started a war that was secretly puppeteered by Space Hitler?

    Like, do you think that the invasion and blockade of Naboo was a good thing? Or that it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Jedi?

    I was carefully only looking at the movies, because you said that's what we should do.

    By the way, the Grevious backstory you like isn't even hinted in the movies. :p

    That's an EU thing, the very EU you told other people off for referencing.

    E: Also, I'm literally not staff.
     
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