Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[bluntblade]

But that's the thing: the author is under no obligation to write their space magic as transforming torture from counterproductive like RL into an effective torture technique.

And choosing to do so is an act of support for real life torturers, because it builds up the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.

By convincing audiences that torture is an effective torture technique, authors who contribute to that misconception are advocating for torture.

Because, barring space magic, the choice is this:

• torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

You, advocates of torture, and, according to you, the authors of JFO, are falsely presenting the choice as this:

• DON'T torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

This dishonest presentation is a form of advocating for torture.

Click to shrink...

I'm saying don't torture, no matter what. And I think the framing is what really matters. Lord of the Rings' plot hinges on torture working, but the scene of torture, even/because it's presented just out of view for less than a minute, is a harrowing moment which has stuck with me since I first saw it. It tells us that no matter what it achieves, torture is despicable to the point that it should never, ever be used.

 

[Alane1]

Honestly even looking at just new canon lore and excluding legends where there was techniques for resisting torture it seems clear that torture even with the force isn't always effective given it Darth Vader, who almost certainly had vastly more experience and skill than Kylo Ren utterly failed to get any information out of Princess Leia in spite of using a combination drugs, physical torture and the force to try to rip the information he wanted from her mind.

 

[bluntblade]

Also Kylo fluffs it when attempting to get the map out of Rey's head.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

It's honestly incredible that we've managed to get almost two and a half pages of discussion out of someone criticizing a game they've never played and misunderstanding a joke.

 

[Dekutulla]

By the logic that leads to star wars endorsing torture, star wars also endorses:

• Slavery
• Sectarian violence
• Unification of church and state
• Fascism*
• Kleptocracy
• Monarchy
• Oligarchy
• War crimes
• Crimes against humanity
• Child labor
• Blood sport
• Genocide
• Xenocide
• Pre-emptive murder in self defence (or, 'I was afraid for my life')
• Eugenics
• Human experiments
• Terrorism
• Infanticide
• Drug running
• Sex slavery
• Child soldiers

And I'm sure much more. Yes, torture exists in star wars, and yes, it has been shown to work on occasion, but it is not shown to work all of the time, and more importantly it is to my knowledge always the villain doing it. "This concept has functioned, occasionally, in universe" is not the same as an endorsement for that concept. If I write a book where a racist exists, they're an antagonist, and they are moderately successful in life, that doesn't mean I endorse racism.

This logic would get a passing grade in a 100 level English course, but that doesn't make it meaningful or accurate.

*yeah the EU basically does actually endorse this sometimes but those arcs are also bad so

 

[Arthur Frayn]

But don't you get it, by including the Death Star Star Wars clearly endorses the idea that a space station the size of a moon armed with a planet destroying superlaser is both feasible and a reasonable idea to begin with.

 

[bluntblade]

Side note: do you ever think how bizarre it is that one of the new trilogy films had all its principal production done over a year before it released, and the other two were still reshooting like a month before they came out? I kinda have to marvel at how easy Abrams must be to work with that no one seems to have struggled with that except for those involved in the editing (and presumably the VFX teams? Maybe John Williams, given that the score for the third film is way less impactful for me and it often degenerates into a mere grab-bag of the old motifs)

 

[IlumMoss]

It's honestly incredible that we've managed to get almost two and a half pages of discussion out of someone criticizing a game they've never played and misunderstanding a joke.

Click to shrink...

I mean the argument wasn't originally centered on JFO? It was one example, put together with Kylo in TFA. And they openly admitted they hadn't played the game, just that from what they had heard it seemed to match a change in the pattern of how torture is portrayed in SW that they felt was fair to criticise, due to how torture is actually quite inefficient irl. It's not that having torture in your story is endorsing it, but that a lot of media contribute to the false narrative that torture is an efficient way of getting information from people (it's not, rapport based methods are a lot more effective). And I agree that those creator choices are fair to critique.While most of the debate focused on JFO, as they hadn't played it, it's not the lynchpin of the matter. I'm honestly a bit confused why you're so condescending about this? But I suppose the debate got inflamed.

To completely sidetrack, I read an earlier version of the RotS script today, and it's interesting because it seem like the chips or something similar to it might have been an idea even this early.

Cody seems completely different to how he is earlier in the movie, and can't be reasoned with even when his life is at risk. Exactly like Jesse and the 501st in tcw season 7.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

By this same logic, Star Wars endorses the violent overthrow of the government via spectacular acts of terrorism like destroying military institutions.

It doesn't matter if that's what Lucas didn't intend, what matters is that this is a plausible read of the movie. It's all the more egregious given that Lucas warps the narrative of the world to justify this, such as making the Empire so eye-rollingly evil. He really tips his hand by turning the story of a young man being radicalized by religious extremists into one of heroic spiritual self-actualization.

Click to shrink...

I think we've started getting to the heart of things.

Do you think the Empire is unrealistically evil?

Do you consider those who violently rebel against Nazis and CSA types to be the "real" villains?

Do you hate John Brown?

Sometimes good and evil really are that simple.

Click to shrink...

It's honestly incredible that we've managed to get almost two and a half pages of discussion out of someone criticizing a game they've never played and misunderstanding a joke.

Click to shrink...

There is no such thing as "just a joke".

In your case, your "joke" contained baked into it the assumption that violently overthrowing a tyrannical government that engages in genocide and torture while removing all democratic methods of changing their course is a bad thing that media shouldn't encourage.

Since I disagree with that premise, and assume other people also disagree with that premise (or at least would like to pretend they do), I chose to drag that premise into the spotlight.

 

[bluntblade]

Part of me loves the idea of the conversations which must implicitly take place within the Empire if torture indeed never works.

"High Inquisitor Torqueda, I have a question about our interrogation techniques."

"And what is your query?"

"Well, they never work. Statistically they have never worked at all, not once. So why do we do it instead of investigating other methods?"

"Oh, we just hate all our enemies that much."

NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT I THINK TORTURE IS GOOD OR THINK THAT IT ISN'T GROSSLY INEFFICIENT IN ADDITION TO JUST BEING GROSS.


(sigh) Can we find something else to talk about? I find myself increasingly curious to watch some of the Making Of films, not least because of the schism between the pro-Abrams and pro-Johnson camps tearing even further open after Boyega's interview. Particularly it's fascinating to me that the two directors presided over such different productions, and it's the one who was constantly springing rewrites on the actors and crew who seems to have been liked by the people involved. Meanwhile the one who came in with a clear plan and stuck to it even had the costumers and set design people fighting him, and out of the cast only Isaac and Driver seem to have a positive word to say about him nowadays.

 

[IlumMoss]

It's not that it never works, it's that torture is inefficient compared to other methods. And the Empire has a lot of more reasons to use them than their efficiency. Vader goes for torture because he would suck at building rapport and he does not mind inflicting pain on others, possibly even enjoy it in some twisted way. Tarkin is also the type of monster for whom having his enemies tortured serves a purpose of their own. They are rebel scum after all. The torture is also a threat to ensure compliance within their own ranks, and a warning to their enemies. As well as how the Empire isn't exactly know for being efficient xD

 

[bluntblade]

It's not that it never works, it's that torture is inefficient compared to other methods. And the Empire has a lot of more reasons to use them than their efficiency. Vader goes for torture because he would suck at building rapport and he does not mind inflicting pain on others, possibly even enjoy it in some twisted way. Tarkin is also the type of monster for whom having his enemies tortured serves a purpose of their own. They are rebel scum after all. The torture is also a threat to ensure compliance within their own ranks, and a warning to their enemies. As well as how the Empire isn't exactly know for being efficient xD

Click to shrink...

I agree on inefficient - again, studied Stalinist Russia. My beef was with RP's belief that it should only ever be depicted as totally, definitely ineffective, which is a quite different proposition.

 

[IlumMoss]

I agree on inefficient - again, studied Stalinist Russia. My beef was with RP's belief that it should only ever be depicted as totally, definitely ineffective, which is a quite different proposition.

Click to shrink...

I suppose I don't think that was their intention (torture always having to be completely ineffective) as much as to critique the pattern torture being presented as efficient. But as you've said earlier, this debate is becoming a bit unlikely to end with us all on the same side 😋

 

[all fictions]

Pictured: supporting American militarism apparently

 

[bluntblade]

I suppose I don't think that was their intention (torture always having to be completely ineffective) as much as to critique the pattern torture being presented as efficient. But as you've said earlier, this debate is becoming a bit unlikely to end with us all on the same side 😋

Click to shrink...

I'm going off the original post, which I grant might have simply read differently to what was intended.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

There is no such thing as "just a joke".

In your case, your "joke" contained baked into it the assumption that violently overthrowing a tyrannical government that engages in genocide and torture while removing all democratic methods of changing their course is a bad thing that media shouldn't encourage.

Since I disagree with that premise, and assume other people also disagree with that premise (or at least would like to pretend they do), I chose to drag that premise into the spotlight.

Click to shrink...

This is getting absurd, and I can't believe I have to spell this out for you a third time. I was taking your premise (that depiction equals endorsement) and blowing it out to an absurd degree to demonstrate that just because we can read something into a film doesn't mean we should take that take seriously.

Everyone else seemed to understand it except you, who proceeded to work yourself into a lather about how I was a crypto-Trumper who supported slavery or some shit, and when it was pointed out that you were completely off base you just fell back on "Well even if I was wrong I'm still totally right".

Now we're sitting here watch you try and martyr yourself as some kind of defender of...something...like honestly I don't even know what you're arguing at this point beyond "I'm right".

 

[bluntblade]

Thinking more about the productions on the new films: has there been any real talk from the Rogue One and Solo casts about their experiences? I heard an interview with Felicity Jones in December 2016 but nothing was said about the reshoots or change of director, and I haven't seen an interview with any of the Solo actors.

In my head there's mostly the dichotomy of how Abrams and Johnson were received as directors, so I'm curious to find out what the dynamics were across the new films.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

This is getting absurd, and I can't believe I have to spell this out for you a third time. I was taking your premise (that depiction equals endorsement) and blowing it out to an absurd degree to demonstrate that just because we can read something into a film doesn't mean we should take that take seriously.

Everyone else seemed to understand it except you, who proceeded to work yourself into a lather about how I was a crypto-Trumper who supported slavery or some shit, and when it was pointed out that you were completely off base you just fell back on "Well even if I was wrong I'm still totally right".

Now we're sitting here watch you try and martyr yourself as some kind of defender of...something...like honestly I don't even know what you're arguing at this point beyond "I'm right".

Click to shrink...

1. That isn't my premise.
2. The behavior you actually described as a comparison -- violent overthrow of genocidal governments via destruction of military institutions -- is one I actually approve of.
3. I didn't introduce Trump, you did.
4. You are still arguing because you are attached to your argument.

My premise is that depicting torture in particular as working as an interrogation technique is endorsing the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.

The reason that translates to supporting torture is the intersection of two issues:

1. That meme is used by torture-supporters to support torture.
   AND
2. That that meme is, in fact, false.

Accepting this particular pro-torture lie creates a false dilemma that encourages torture, as I described earlier:

Because, barring space magic, the choice is this:

• torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

You, advocates of torture, and, according to you, the authors of JFO, are falsely presenting the choice as this:

• DON'T torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

This dishonest presentation is a form of advocating for torture.

Click to shrink...

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Thinking more about the productions on the new films: has there been any real talk from the Rogue One and Solo casts about their experiences? I heard an interview with Felicity Jones in December 2016 but nothing was said about the reshoots or change of director, and I haven't seen an interview with any of the Solo actors.

In my head there's mostly the dichotomy of how Abrams and Johnson were received as directors, so I'm curious to find out what the dynamics were across the new films.

Click to shrink...

I imagine they're all locked up in NDA's. IIRC they were going to publish a book about the making of TFA, but when the author started to go into the chaotic elements of the production they pulled the plug (or something).

1. That isn't my premise.
2. The behavior you actually described as a comparison -- violent overthrow of genocidal governments via destruction of military institutions -- is one I actually approve of.
3. I didn't introduce Trump, you did.
4. You are still arguing because you are attached to your argument.

My premise is that depicting torture in particular as working as an interrogation technique is endorsing the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.

The reason that translates to supporting torture is the intersection of two issues:

1. That meme is used by torture-supporters to support torture.
   AND
2. That that meme is, in fact, false.

Accepting this particular pro-torture lie creates a false dilemma that encourages torture, as I described earlier:

Click to shrink...

1. That is your premise, you're just applying it in a very narrow way. Your argument is that if a work, even tangentially, presents the idea that torture can produce valid information than that work reinforces the idea that torture works. I was taking that underlying assumption (presentation=endorsement), turning it around, and presenting an absurd logical endpoint to humorously illustrate the absurdity of your premise.
2. Obviously overthrowing a violent, fascistic government by force if necessary is a good thing, everyone agrees with you. This is a Star Wars thread for Christ's sake - it's baked into the premise. No one disagreed with you. My literal point, which you keep re-iterating as if it's not obvious, is that Star Wars is about how it's a good thing to overthrow the government, and that reading it the way I presented is intentionally stupid and backwards. Again, just because we can read a work some way doesn't mean we have to take it seriously.
3. You know, like, I can just go back and point this out, right? Because you acted like I'd just tipped my MAGA hand and went all in.

   I think we've started getting to the heart of things.
   
   Do you think the Empire is unrealistically evil?
   
   Do you consider those who violently rebel against Nazis and CSA types to be the "real" villains?
   
   Do you hate John Brown?
   
   Sometimes good and evil really are that simple.

   Click to shrink...

   Arthur's post was clearly framed as a counter-argument, implying that they do believe that what the Rebellion was doing in A New Hope was bad.
   
   Once you strip out Arthur's weaseling and equivocation between Nazis and Antifa via vague wording, the question they present is basically, "Does Star Wars endorse violently destroying the military institutions of evil governments that engage in genocide and torture while removing democratic processes that might rein them in?" to which the answer is obviously, "YES, and it is right to do so."

   Click to shrink...

4. I'm not arguing with you, making fun of you because I find your behavior ridiculous.

Even if we acknowledge your fundamental premise (which honestly I kind've agree with, depicting torture is a tricky subject that should be handled with care!) depicting torture is such a minuscule part of the fabric of Star Wars that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. You were the one who decided to arbitrarily bring up Disney's handling (again, in a game not made by them and which you've never played) of torture as if it was some egregious sin, and as @Dekutulla points out the OG EU is chock-a-block with problematic shit. This isn't something unique to Disney, so your original point doesn't even make sense in the first place.

 

[Skippy]

But that's the thing: the author is under no obligation to write their space magic as transforming torture from counterproductive like RL into an effective torture technique.

And choosing to do so is an act of support for real life torturers, because it builds up the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.

By convincing audiences that torture is an effective torture technique, authors who contribute to that misconception are advocating for torture.

Because, barring space magic, the choice is this:

• torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

You, advocates of torture, and, according to you, the authors of JFO, are falsely presenting the choice as this:

• DON'T torture
  XOR
• Do whatever it takes to get the information

This dishonest presentation is a form of advocating for torture.

Click to shrink...

There is no such thing as "just a joke".

In your case, your "joke" contained baked into it the assumption that violently overthrowing a tyrannical government that engages in genocide and torture while removing all democratic methods of changing their course is a bad thing that media shouldn't encourage.

Since I disagree with that premise, and assume other people also disagree with that premise (or at least would like to pretend they do), I chose to drag that premise into the spotlight.

Click to shrink...

Arthur's post was clearly framed as a counter-argument, implying that they do believe that what the Rebellion was doing in A New Hope was bad.

Once you strip out Arthur's weaseling and equivocation between Nazis and Antifa via vague wording, the question they present is basically, "Does Star Wars endorse violently destroying the military institutions of evil governments that engage in genocide and torture while removing democratic processes that might rein them in?" to which the answer is obviously, "YES, and it is right to do so."

Click to shrink...

1. That isn't my premise.
2. The behavior you actually described as a comparison -- violent overthrow of genocidal governments via destruction of military institutions -- is one I actually approve of.
3. I didn't introduce Trump, you did.
4. You are still arguing because you are attached to your argument.

My premise is that depicting torture in particular as working as an interrogation technique is endorsing the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.

The reason that translates to supporting torture is the intersection of two issues:

1. That meme is used by torture-supporters to support torture.
   AND
2. That that meme is, in fact, false.

Accepting this particular pro-torture lie creates a false dilemma that encourages torture, as I described earlier:

Click to shrink...

it's time to stop This ridiculous derail has disrupted the thread for long enough.

Whilst I understand that arguments on the internet can be frustrating, your tone here towards other users, the treatment of an argument about Star Wars as if it is a matter of life-or death, and the way the resulting trainwreck completely consumed the thread are not acceptable. Other users are not crypto-fascists or advocates for torture because they disagree with you about Star Wars. This does not help anyone, and it does not aid any user in better understanding Star Wars, or any other issues raised. Nothing was gained here.

As a user of Sufficient Velocity, you have a right to expect other users to treat you in good faith. You also have a contingent duty to treat other users with good faith and respect. Your utter refusal here to extend good faith towards other users here who you disagreed with disrupted the thread, and it is hard to expect other users to respond to productively. The assumption of malice in other posters over minor disagreements about a franchise of science-fiction films is not acceptable, and it is corrosive and toxic to our community, and to fruitful discussions.

This is also not the first issue which we have had with your posting in this thread. You have been infracted under Rule 4, and I have banned you from this thread for two months. Please do not do this again, and please take some time to think about your posting and its effect on others.

Thanks for your time.

 

[bluntblade]

I imagine they're all locked up in NDA's. IIRC they were going to publish a book about the making of TFA, but when the author started to go into the chaotic elements of the production they pulled the plug (or something).

Click to shrink...

Quite possibly. Heck, I remember a review of The Director and the Jedi which said "the thing is that if this film hadn't worked, we'd never have seen this". I even wonder if it would've come out had they known the reaction it would get.

I just still find it weird that Johnson, whose old reputation was that of a director whose films "established actors... take pay-cuts to take part in" proved so divisive among the cast and crew - heck, beyond divisive given that so many of them came down so hard against him.

 

[kjyl]

Meh Johnson vs Abrams is pretty much just looking for blame in a set of mediocre to kinda bad Movies.

if I had to rank them it would be

TFA
RoS
TLJ

TFA is a rehash, and RoS is an unholy mess, but at least I was never checking my watch like I was during TLJ.

In a vacuum TLJ probably had the best ideas, but they were executed terribly and the pacing is just horrible. Rise of Skywalker makes no sense if you think about it for more than a minute but it never really gives you that minute to think about it so it's at least entertaining. And while a rehash, TFA at least left me with the feeling "I want to see another Star Wars movie"

Not really fantastic cinema all could've been better, Yada Yada different overseeing producer/have a set script for all three before filming.

 

[bluntblade]

I'm honestly not looking to relitigate the question of which films are better, seeing as everyone on this forum is already quite set in their views. I'm just really struck that so many people on set were so against a director who seems to have been well-liked on all his other projects and presided over the one of the three whose production wasn't at least somewhat chaotic. While the one who was changing the story up to the 11th hour, with actors unable to track what their character arcs were, seems to have been universally beloved.

I still find it weird that people talk about having set scripts for the entire trilogy before filming when that has almost never been the approach in cinema history, and Marvel's own extent of planning is overstated but also being used for a model in which three or four films are being put out every year as opposed to a mere three films.

 

[Madam Carstein]

This honestly kind of got me thinking about the depiction of torture in Star Wars. As @Arthur Frayn noted earlier, it's basically a fringe theme of the setting. It's not like say, Star Trek TNG where there was actually a whole episode arc that addressed torture. In Star Wars, we do see it occasionally, and we know it happens in the galaxy. A viewer of the OT is probably meant to assume that the Empire regularly tortures its enemies and dissidents. But SW media is definitely anti-torture.

If you watch any media where torture is condoned as a form of interrogation, it's usually some kind of Jack Bauer-esque anti-hero. You've got a ticking time bomb, the bad guy knows where it is, but he won't talk, and so you use torture to loosen his tongue. Even though it's been proven that that's not how torture works, and that actually, any kind of "ticking time bomb" kind of situation is actually the worst because there is no way to verify whether or not the victim is telling the truth. I've never seen any kind of Star Wars media that gets into that. Only the villains are shown as using or accepting torture, and if any good/heroic character ever does it themselves, they are swiftly reprimanded and shown as being in the wrong.

The only exception I can think of, which I would really ascribe more to bad writing than to any kind of deliberate intention, is this one episode of Clone Wars where the Jedi capture Nute Gunray. Nute, who is a notoriously cowardly and spineless official, is the kind of person who would give up any secret to save his own skin. In other words: the kind of person who would probably get very cooperative when faced with the prospect of jail time or worse as punishment for his many crimes.

There's a scene where Gunray being interrogated by Ahsoka and Luminara Unduli where he's being uncooperative. Frustrated by his belligerent attitude, Ahsoka loses her temper and threatens Gunray with her ignited lightsaber. Luminara immediately pulls Ahsoka aside and chastises her, reminding her that threatening someone's life, even as a bluff, is not the Jedi way.

The problem with the scene is that Gunray immediately cooperates. Ahsoka's brutal, impulsive decision pays off completely and Luminara's completely justified and valid castigation of Ahsoka falls somewhat flat as a result. Because it makes Ahsoka look like she's right and Luminara look like a preachy moraliser who doesn't understand real war.

Like, it was a single part of a half-hour episode that never got brought up again and didn't have any lasting impression on Ahsoka's character, but I definitely think it could have been handled better in retrospect.

 

[bluntblade]

You could even tie it into the lure of the Dark Side. Like, using the threat of force like that is "Dark Side thinking", taking the quicker and easier way.