Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[bluntblade]

I'm not sure where the idea that so many people on set were somehow 'against' Johnson even comes from? The most infamous example I've heard is Ridley 'crying' when she heard JJ would be back for IX, but there's no evidence that had anything to do with TLJ - that was in the aftermath of the uncertainty of Trevorrow being fired and it was probably IMO deliberately distorted to feed this sort of narrative. This whole thing is wildly overstated IMO.

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It's there in The Director and the Jedi, the documentary they released with the film. You have set design people saying that entire locations shouldn't be in Star Wars. You have the costumer opposing Johnson casting Kelly Marie Tran.

And then we have the whole promo tour for TRoS, which seemed to hinge on how it would fix what TLJ did.

One thing I would say is that I don't think TLJ is indifferent to the OT, but slavishness has become the default setting so anything else can easily feel unfaithful. That, and people assumed that the villain's motto was the film's despite Rey taking the Jedi texts, etc.

 

[Vympel]

It's there in The Director and the Jedi, the documentary they released with the film. You have set design people saying that entire locations shouldn't be in Star Wars. You have the costumer opposing Johnson casting Kelly Marie Tran.

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I've seen it - that's really not the impression I got from that at all. I think its blowing really anodyne discussions out of proportion. Like the discussion with the costume designer is basically just Johnson saying:

Rian: "I want a nice dress for Rose"

Costume designer: "oh so you're going to want someone tall."

Rian: "Nope, she's going to be short."

And that's the end of the discussion. That's really just the director saying what he wants to a costume designer who has made a (natural, to his mind) assumption. This stuff is normal on sets. Like the costume designer on TROS explicitly opposed Abrams choices for Rey's costume too - he wanted to give her a new outfit, to show growth and change. Instead they dressed her in a copy-cat outfit of her original TFA gear that was so white and clean it looked damn cheap.

As to the article on the promo tour - that's pretty much just like Abrams (talking out of both side of his mouth as convenient and clearly signalling to the chuds that he was going to pander to them with his inane "this doesn't matter" comment) and Boyega though. Domnhall Gleeson, Oscar Isaac and Daisy Ridley never said anything remotely critical of TLJ.

 

[bluntblade]

I've seen it - that's really not the impression I got from that at all. I think its blowing really anodyne discussions out of proportion. Like the discussion with the costume designer is basically just Johnson saying:

Rian: "I want a nice dress for Rose"

Costume designer: "oh so you're going to want someone tall."

Rian: "Nope, she's going to be short."

And that's the end of the discussion. That's really just the director saying what he wants to a costume designer who has made a (natural, to his mind) assumption. This stuff is normal on sets. Like the costume designer on TROS explicitly opposed Abrams choices for Rey's costume too - he wanted to give her a new outfit, to show growth and change. Instead they dressed her in a copy-cat outfit of her original TFA gear that was so white and clean it looked damn cheap.

As to the article on the promo tour - that's pretty much just like Abrams (talking out of both side of his mouth as convenient and clearly signalling to the chuds that he was going to pander to them with his inane "this doesn't matter" comment) and Boyega though. Domnhall Gleeson, Oscar Isaac and Daisy Ridley never said anything remotely critical of TLJ.

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But then you also have The Skywalker Legacy and people in that are talking about how we finally got the portrayal of Luke that should have been there from the start. I haven't seen any mention of Abrams being opposed on adding Kijimi or Exegol.

Also wasn't Ridley refusing to say for sure that she'd enjoyed TLJ after the release? She's actually said she's struggled for work after TRoS, so might just be hedging her bets and not wanting to burn any bridges. Boyega is doing much better for parts right now.

 

[Vympel]

But then you also have The Skywalker Legacy and people in that are talking about how we finally got the portrayal of Luke that should have been there from the start. I haven't seen any mention of Abrams being opposed on adding Kijimi or Exegol.

Also wasn't Ridley refusing to say for sure that she'd enjoyed TLJ after the release? She's actually said she's struggled for work after TRoS, so might just be hedging her bets and not wanting to burn any bridges. Boyega is doing much better for parts right now.

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That I haven't seen from start to finish. I'd have to see it to see if they were taking a veiled swipe at TLJ or just generally about what the story did with Luke from the start. I can't recall Ridley saying anything specifically negative about TLJ personally, save for a quite understandable comment about how it was hard to be seperated from her friends on set, because she barely filmed with Boyega that time around. But that was just a statement of fact, not a criticism of the movie.

 

[bluntblade]

That I haven't seen from start to finish. I'd have to see it to see if they were taking a veiled swipe at TLJ or just generally about what the story did with Luke from the start. I can't recall Ridley saying anything specifically negative about TLJ personally, save for a quite understandable comment about how it was hard to be seperated from her friends on set, because she barely filmed with Boyega that time around. But that was just a statement of fact, not a criticism of the movie.

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Tbh that might actually be it: that Johnson came in, took two relatively inexperienced actors and set them working for most of the shoot with people they'd never worked with before, carrying entire subplots almost on their own.

It's also possible that Abrams had told them his plans for their characters and not Johnson - or Johnson is straight-up lying about not being handed any ultimatum and actually did go against Abrams' expressed wishes. Simon Pegg has after all said that Abrams told him the plan during the TFA shoot.

Side note: curious to see if Johnson responds to the racism allegations.

 

[Vympel]

Tbh that might actually be it: that Johnson came in, took two relatively inexperienced actors and set them working for most of the shoot with people they'd never worked with before, carrying entire subplots almost on their own.

It's also possible that Abrams had told them his plans for their characters and not Johnson - or Johnson is straight-up lying about not being handed any ultimatum and actually did go against Abrams' expressed wishes. Simon Pegg has after all said that Abrams told him the plan during the TFA shoot.

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Meh, that's just distorted spin from biased parties re: Pegg making some pretty vague non-committal comments along the lines of how at some point he maybe thought that perhaps there was a notion of Rey having some sort of lineage. It wasn't at all definitive. Abrams himself has come out and said that he didn't have any sort of 'treatment' for Episode VIII or IX - the furthest he ever got, he said quite recently (just before TROS came out) was that they had some random ideas while writing VII for stuff that might be 'cool' but which they didn't put in the film.

At the end of the day, Abrams was EP of Episode VIII and discussed the script with both Kennedy and Johnson. He had power that Johnson never did*. If Johnson actually 'threw out' anything like certain partisans insist on claiming, we'd know about it for a fact by now.

*One of the biggest scams Abrams has (completely unwittingly?) pulled with this whole damn sequel trilogy discourse is the idea amongst his partisans that he's not one of the most powerful and influential producers in Hollywood, and some sort of victim of others.

Side note: curious to see if Johnson responds to the racism allegations.

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I don't think that he would - it'd come off as unreasonably defensive, because Boyega never called him a racist or anything that could (IMO) reasonably be construed as such.

 

[bluntblade]

NDAs and that, mind. There's been plenty of speculation over just how extensively those apply.

It does really bug me that the "what not to do" has alighted on writing practices which wrote The Dark Knight (Bruce was set up to be with Rachel and now she's dead!), Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (what happened to James Franco and his relationship with Caesar? Plot hole!) and Empire for that matter.

As opposed to not constructing characters who make psychological sense, letting them drive the plot or giving any real clarity to the conflict (for example we only encounter the Resistance late in the second act).

 

[bluntblade]

But then again, if Johnson was in tight with Kennedy and the Story Group, how much sway would one EP have? I've never seen any suggestion that Spielberg was able to put his foot down with regard to Michael Bay's Transformers films.

 

[Vympel]

But then again, if Johnson was in tight with Kennedy and the Story Group, how much sway would one EP have? I've never seen any suggestion that Spielberg was able to put his foot down with regard to Michael Bay's Transformers films.

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The presupposes that Spielberg had any sort of problem with Transformers to begin with. Spielberg definitely is more powerful and influential than Bay and would win in any struggle. As far as Abrams is concerned, we have no way to know for sure, but prepondernace of evidence says no

 

[bluntblade]

The presupposes that Spielberg had any sort of problem with Transformers to begin with. Spielberg definitely is more powerful and influential than Bay and would win in any struggle. As far as Abrams is concerned, we have no way to know for sure, but prepondernace of evidence says no

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As in no he wouldn't have been able to influence anything?

I figure Johnson's position in this is quite interesting. From the cast's point of view he's some guy who made some small films, one of them had Bruce Willis in, and now he's been parachuted in and is pushing these weird ideas on them.

 

[Vympel]

As in no he wouldn't have been able to influence anything?

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As in, the preponderance of evidence says Abrams had no plans which were somehow discarded. If he did, he was in a position to fight for them, and there's just no real evidence this is something that happened.

I figure Johnson's position in this is quite interesting. From the cast's point of view he's some guy who made some small films, one of them had Bruce Willis in, and now he's been parachuted in and is pushing these weird ideas on them.

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Maybe. Whatever happened, it will never not be funny to me that Rian walked out of the experience with his reputation significantly enhanced by the people in and around the industry who actually matter compared to that going in (and went on to make the acclaimed and how-did-that-happen incredibly successfulKnives Out), whilst Abrams almost pulled the perfect getaway with Episode VII and then ruined his mystique by turning in his worst movie.

 

[bluntblade]

As in, the preponderance of evidence says Abrams had no plans which were somehow discarded. If he did, he was in a position to fight for them, and there's just no real evidence this is something that happened.

Maybe. Whatever happened, it will never not be funny to me that Rian walked out of the experience with his reputation significantly enhanced by the people in and around the industry who actually matter compared to that going in (and went on to make the acclaimed and how-did-that-happen incredibly successfulKnives Out), whilst Abrams almost pulled the perfect getaway with Episode VII and then ruined his mystique by turning in his worst movie.

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I think we really need to wait and see what this latest row does to Johnson's reputation before we say that. Besides, it's not like we haven't had the trilogy's editors ripping into him - didn't they work on all three films?

 

[Vympel]

I think we really need to wait and see what this latest row does to Johnson's reputation before we say that. Besides, it's not like we haven't had the trilogy's editors ripping into him - didn't they work on all three films?

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I don't think anyone's interested in it - there's just no evidence that Rian's reputation has taken any sort of damage because of Boyega's complaints, because again, Boyega didn't criticise Rian he criticised Disney.

But no, Rian used his own editor. Of the two editors who worked on TFA, one of them criticised TLJ in that interview (the other was more diplomatic), but she's a creature of Abrams/ Bad Robot employee. She has no independent credibility or clout in the industry as such, and her whinge was widely mocked by critics on twitter as sour grapes that was trying to distract from what a disaster TROS was by shifting the blame to the previous, far superior film.

(Maryann Brandon, who of the two actually worked on TROS, was the more diplomatic one)

Opinions on the ST are already set. TROS got a critical drubbing, much of which was directly related to how it seemed to delight in trying to walk back TLJ (nevermind just being a damn badly made film), and its difficult to see why anything Boyega would say about Disney would change that.

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

When do you guys think they'll be touching material that takes place post-ST?

 

[bluntblade]

When do you guys think they'll be touching material that takes place post-ST?

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Not for a long time. Disney are going to mine the bits that people are already nostalgic for, and they might want to wait and see if the feelings of at least Isaac and Boyega cool first, so they can try and keep their characters involved.

My take is that we shouldn't expect anything too close to new on Star Wars for at least five years.

Added to that, a lot of the stuff in TRoS means they want to keep it "final", at least for a while.

 

[Ithillid]

When do you guys think they'll be touching material that takes place post-ST?

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Likely never. Because there are no interesting characters or plot threads left. People wanted a sequel trilogy because they wanted to see what happened to Han, and Luke, and Leia, and Chewie. Some wanted to see what a New Republic would look like. Even after the destruction of the Death Star, there was the disassembly of the Galactic Empire to go. There were things to do. The issue is that after TRoS, what remaining threads are there?

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

Likely never. Because there are no interesting characters or plot threads left. People wanted a sequel trilogy because they wanted to see what happened to Han, and Luke, and Leia, and Chewie. Some wanted to see what a New Republic would look like. Even after the destruction of the Death Star, there was the disassembly of the Galactic Empire to go. There were things to do. The issue is that after TRoS, what remaining threads are there?

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The same threads that were left after the OT? I'm thinking things like the rebuilding of the Jedi Order, the restoration of the Republic, the remnants of the First Order and Sith Eternal.

 

[bluntblade]

The same threads that were left after the OT? I'm thinking things like the rebuilding of the Jedi Order, the restoration of the Republic, the remnants of the First Order and Sith Eternal.

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The Sith Eternal were played as being absolutely annihilated, as far as I could tell. That was one place at least where meaning was clear: Abrams and Terrio were desperate for it to be the final battle that Makes Everything Totally Alright.

The point is that... apart from the Reylo crowd hoping that Ben Solo gets brought back from the dead, who cares any more? I fell in love with Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose and BB-8 from about their first minutes onscreen, and a single movie has stopped me from caring about their onscreen selves (as opposed to my headcanon of where they end up).

In the end, their own creator (with the exception of Rose) didn't really care about them. Which makes it hard for anyone else.

 

[Gaz]

After TROS I have no real interest in any new Star Wars movies, at least not for a long, long while.

 

[tankdrop24]

Honestly I can't really blame anyone for that.

What TROS did was akain to ripping the skin off the animatronics at one of those restaurants or a theme park. You just can't go back to seeing it the same way after that.

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

Chop

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I mean while the characters of the ST may be irrelevant, isn't the fate of the Jedi Order and the Republic still of interest to you?

 

[Gaz]

I mean while the characters of the ST may be irrelevant, isn't the fate of the Jedi Order and the Republic still of interest to you?

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Neither were of interest to anyone involved in the writing, planning and direction of TROS, you can't blame people for not exactly wanting to chomp at the bit for more of what is essentially nothing.

Think about it this way - at least in Return of the Jedi, the Jedi actually returned.

 

[Alane1]

At this point I am not sure there are any groups left even have the ability and connections to create a fourth Galactic republic or any central government and at this point I half suspect more likely there is likely to be a interregnum without any central galactic government.

As for the jedi order, the fate of the tens of thousands of year organization seems rather murky. I mean there's Rey and maybe a few stray very old lost jedi floating around in the remote hinterlands of the galaxy and likely some holcrons floating around but the order over all fate seems very bleak.

 

[bluntblade]

I mean while the characters of the ST may be irrelevant, isn't the fate of the Jedi Order and the Republic still of interest to you?

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No. Because the characters drew me in and now they're nothing to me. The Republic didn't matter enough to Abrams to depict, and going by his reverent depiction of the old Jedi, when they come back it'll just be the same bunch of stoic, tedious arseholes who I never liked in the first place. The fact that the Force Dyad turns Kylo Ren into a corpse-shaped chastity belt on Rey only rams that home.

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

Neither were of interest to anyone involved in the writing, planning and direction of TROS, you can't blame people for not exactly wanting to chomp at the bit for more of what is essentially nothing.

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Yeah, but those people won't be writing any of the potential content that takes place post-TROS. And TBH, I'm surprised that people actually put so much investment into Star Wars movie characters. I mean for me, characterization tends to be the biggest weakness of the Star Wars movies (With the PT, IMO, having the strongest characterization what with Anakin's fall and just all of Sidious' thing). For me, I am someone more drawn into the epic lore and spectacle of Star Wars, so it's rare for me to be drawn to the drama of the characters in the same way I would for any other franchise. Though, I felt that Jyn and Qi'ra and young Han had pretty strong characterization, for the movies at least.