Star Wars General Discussion Thread

I kind of wonder if there was ever the possibility of an 'accepted' sequel trilogy. By it's very premise, you never going to get a happily ever after for the original heroes that would 'last'. Even Legends was basically going from one struggle to the next, even if they managed to make the most of it. Also who were you even going to use outside of the same Sith/Empire expies, A better written Yuuzhan Vong?
 
I don't think there was a sequel trilogy that would please everyone. However at the same time, if you had the old characters leaving more of a legacy and defining the environment that the new characters are operating within, that, I think, would have been at least more accepted. Because yes, happily ever after is not an option, however there are notches between the characters pretty much across the board having regressed from the positions they were in at the end of Episode 6.
 
I don't think there was a sequel trilogy that would please everyone. However at the same time, if you had the old characters leaving more of a legacy and defining the environment that the new characters are operating within, that, I think, would have been at least more accepted. Because yes, happily ever after is not an option, however there are notches between the characters pretty much across the board having regressed from the positions they were in at the end of Episode 6.

I think they regressed far beyond that save maybe Leia, and how she got screwed over was mind-numbingly stupid.
 
Let's stick a knife in this absurd notion that JJ had some sort of 'plan' - Daisy Ridley on how he couldn't even commit to his dumbass Rey Palpatine idea during Episode IX's production. It was literally filming and Daisy didn't know.



Its hard to overstate the outrageous level of privilege you enjoy to be hired on one of the biggest movies that will ever be made and to start filming with a script so unfinished that you haven't even decided on the answer to a question you've quite deliberately decided to reopen.
 
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I kind of wonder if there was ever the possibility of an 'accepted' sequel trilogy. By it's very premise, you never going to get a happily ever after for the original heroes that would 'last'. Even Legends was basically going from one struggle to the next, even if they managed to make the most of it. Also who were you even going to use outside of the same Sith/Empire expies, A better written Yuuzhan Vong?
Honestly, had they just kept the focus on the Resistance-First Order conflict and had Kylo ousted by Hux and having to redeem himself, or staying the villain until his defeat by Rey, you'd have something that works overall as a dramatic grand arc and I reckon that would be accepted.

The rocky start could've been overcome. Had Episode IX been good, Episode VII's problems probably wouldn't still bother me that much.

At the end of the the story had to be about the new generation, even if starting with them as apprentices in the New Jedi Order might've been interesting and helped to delineate the stories more. The core issue is that Episode IX shows Abrams cared about one new character only and his name is Ben Solo. Not Kylo Ren, Ben Solo.

Let's stick a knife in this absurd notion that JJ had some sort of 'plan' - Daisy Ridley on how he couldn't even commit to his dumbass Rey Palpatine idea during Episode IX's production. It was literally filming and Daisy didn't know.



Its hard to overstate the outrageous level of privilege you enjoy to be hired on one of the biggest movies that will ever be made and to start filming with a script so unfinished that you haven't even decided on the answer to a question you've quite deliberately decided to reopen.

This makes me wonder if any outcome would've actually been satisfying as done by Abrams. Like, people talk about how it was meant to end with Rey and Finn in love and I picture that just being how the "Rey! Reeeeeey!" thing culminates, with no real emotional arc and still no time at all given to what happened with Finn and Rose.

This all comes back to "I hate thinking about what this means." And how Abrams seems incapable of conveying meaning beyond a temporary affection of something. If Johnson had been forced to make Kylo turn or give Rey an ancestry, it would show because he's setting things up in other scenes. Abrams is pretty much never doing that.

This still genuinely baffles me. How don't you use what the previous film gave you when you're already up against the clock, and heck, why aren't you at least setting the main beats in stone?
 
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The Rey Palpatine is actually one of the good things I think, a pity it wasn't done well.

Palpatine before rising to power was a nobody, a senator from a minor backwater planet and he may have pretty much became evil incarnate as far as star wars go but he wasn't brought into existence by space magic like the chosen one.

Setting that aside though it would be someone confronting the evils of their own family which you don't really see much of in film and it someone would actually winning against the evils of their family legacy instead of being consumed by it no less.
 
The Rey Palpatine is actually one of the good things I think, a pity it wasn't done well.

Palpatine before rising to power was a nobody, a senator from a minor backwater planet and he may have pretty much became evil incarnate as far as star wars go but he wasn't brought into existence by space magic like the chosen one.

Setting that aside though it would be someone confronting the evils of their own family which you don't really see much of in film and it someone would actually winning against the evils of their family legacy instead of being consumed by it no less.
But the story was already... not about that. Redoing Rey's parentage in any way also saps the film of life, you feel it like a tyre losing air because you grind to a halt with those awful static dialogue scenes. They had room to build and do something new, but Abrams felt the need to undo it no matter what he actually picked to replace it.

The act of retconning mattered more to him than Rey's ancestry and character.
 
Another funny thing about this that's worth pointing out as well that on Ridley's account (and this has been amply borne out since December 2015 anyway) they had never decided on Rey's parentage at any point during Episode VII, but had toyed with the idea of :eyeroll: making her a Kenobi, which is only slightly less dumb than making her a Palpatine. What was clearly never on the cards at any point was making her a Skywalker (this was always clear from TFA's own script - Maz's speech to Rey kills that idea dead given that it draws a clear line between her family and Luke Skywalker as two entirely seperate things).

But yeah, its fantastic how this video is all over twitter and prompting an entirely new round of frustrated, bemused griping from fans/critics about what a disaster TROS was. Good job Disney/Lucasfilm, well done. :lol:

Whole thing's embarasssing. What a cackhanded, incompetent way to make a film.
 
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Another funny thing about this that's worth pointing out as well that on Ridley's account (and this has been amply borne out since December 2015 anyway) they had never decided on Rey's parentage at any point during Episode VII, but had toyed with the idea of :eyeroll: making her a Kenobi, which is only slightly less dumb than making her a Palpatine. What was clearly never on the cards at any point was making her a Skywalker (this was always clear from TFA's own script - Maz's speech to Rey kills that idea dead given that it draws a clear line between her family and Luke Skywalker as two entirely seperate things).

But yeah, its fantastic how this video is all over twitter and prompting an entirely new round of frustrated, bemused griping from fans/critics about what a disaster TROS was. Good job Disney/Lucasfilm, well done. :lol:

Whole thing's embarasssing. What a cackhanded, incompetent way to make a film.
Also... what would it even say? Apart from, in Johnson's words, "this is who you are and where you fit, nice and easy."

This may be part of why several cast members seemed to fire on fewer cylinders this time around. And of course, spending time retconning amounts to wasting time and sapping the film of energy. We have to spend time which could go on character and story progression being devoted to looking pointedly at Rey and going "whoooo issss sheeee?"

Because she doesn't want to know. Johnson has her motivated to find out who her family were, but Abrams' approach makes her so passive both times.

Jeez, where can I get some of Abrams' confidence?
 
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Grandpappy sheev was always a stupid idea. Its just Abrams cargo culting the Papa Vader reveal without having the slightest understanding of why it was interesting. Namely how it transformed the most iconic badguy of the series from an evil killer robot, to a melancholic father attempting a misguided reconciliation with his lost son. This absolutely doesn't work with Sheev because family relations are as disposable to him as tissue paper, and he really can't be bothered to pretend otherwise.

I'm not sure if Rey having significant ancestry was a pushback against TLJ, or Abrams JUST wanting to get in one more mega twist. But the amount of grasping they had to do to think of something illustrates what a bag of nothing this mystery box always was. There was nobody they could have picked and not have it come off like this.
 
Grandpappy sheev was always a stupid idea. Its just Abrams cargo culting the Papa Vader reveal without having the slightest understanding of why it was interesting. Namely how it transformed the most iconic badguy of the series from an evil killer robot, to a melancholic father attempting a misguided reconciliation with his lost son. This absolutely doesn't work with Sheev because family relations are as disposable to him as tissue paper, and he really can't be bothered to pretend otherwise.

I'm not sure if Rey having significant ancestry was a pushback against TLJ, or Abrams JUST wanting to get in one more mega twist. But the amount of grasping they had to do to think of something illustrates what a bag of nothing this mystery box always was. There was nobody they could have picked and not have it come off like this.

I'd say probably the latter. Abrams doesn't know how to do characters who don't owe their importance to something external to their character - see what he did with Finn and what he did to Rose.
 
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Grandpappy sheev was always a stupid idea. Its just Abrams cargo culting the Papa Vader reveal without having the slightest understanding of why it was interesting. Namely how it transformed the most iconic badguy of the series from an evil killer robot, to a melancholic father attempting a misguided reconciliation with his lost son.
That's not why it was interesting, or rather, it was only a part of why it was interesting. Far more critical than the reframing of Vader in the minds of the audience is the effect the reveal had on Luke, taking him from a place where he's very sure of himself to a place of shock, vulnerability, and finally introspection that allows him to "confront" Vader with an outstretched hand rather than trying to assassinate him the way he did on Bespin.
 
Whereas Papa Palpatine changes nothing ultimately. He still has to be destroyed, Rey doesn't change, nothing. There is no good reason I can think of for Abrams not to lean into the Rey Nobody thing and tell a new bloody story.

That would also mean having Finn have agency, and Poe being mature, Rey struggling with the legacy of the Jedi and her lack of a teacher, and embracing the possibilities of Supreme Leader Kylo Ren and Hux simmering away. All things that would make for a compelling third film.

Oh yeah, wait, TLJ left the series with nowhere to go. I forgot because I was distracted by all those potential story threads.
 
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Whereas Papa Palpatine changes nothing ultimately. He still has to be destroyed, Rey doesn't change, nothing.
Which is all the more bizarre given the character arc for her towards which TRoS gestured. Rey discovered in TLJ that she was drawn to darkness, in the cave under Ach-to and in communing with Kylo. She spends most of TRoS down on herself and doubting her righteousness. You'd think that a connection to Ultimate Evil would push that arc.

I don't remember TRoS well enough to say why the reveal didn't work the way that it should. I'm tempted to say it was timed wrong, too close to the big moment when Rey regains her resolve to allow that regaining to proceed naturally from the story and her emotions rather than from the needs of the plot in the moment, but I'm talking out my ass there.
 
Which is all the more bizarre given the character arc for her towards which TRoS gestured. Rey discovered in TLJ that she was drawn to darkness, in the cave under Ach-to and in communing with Kylo. She spends most of TRoS down on herself and doubting her righteousness. You'd think that a connection to Ultimate Evil would push that arc.

I don't remember TRoS well enough to say why the reveal didn't work the way that it should. I'm tempted to say it was timed wrong, too close to the big moment when Rey regains her resolve to allow that regaining to proceed naturally from the story and her emotions rather than from the needs of the plot in the moment, but I'm talking out my ass there.
She doesn't regain her resolve until Luke gives her a pep talk, then she seems to be going along with Palpatine's plan until Ben arrives and then it's just goody-goody to the finish. Honestly, I'd say the draw to the darkness was more it playing on her insecurities, but that might just be down to TRoS playing it really clumsily.

As for the reveal, it's just really bland. Rey stands there while a guy who isn't Driver under the mask (you can tell, Driver's physicality is absent until he takes it off) also stands there, and Driver just tells her. It's got none of the care and dramatic oomph that were put into the equivalent scene in TLJ, and it pretty much goes unaddressed until Dark Rey pops up.
 
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That's not why it was interesting, or rather, it was only a part of why it was interesting. Far more critical than the reframing of Vader in the minds of the audience is the effect the reveal had on Luke, taking him from a place where he's very sure of himself to a place of shock, vulnerability, and finally introspection that allows him to "confront" Vader with an outstretched hand rather than trying to assassinate him the way he did on Bespin.
Obviously the impact this has on Luke is very important. He's the primary hero after all, and his father was an important part of his identity. But Luke would have been the primary hero of the OT regardless of the revelation with Vader. The impact this has on Vader id argue is more interesting, since it fundementally transforms the role Vader has in the story. Did anyone going into Enpire expect the final shots of Vader to be slumping over in dejection because his son ran away from him? VDer goes from the badguys scary enforcer goon, to a pivotal tragic figure you could center entire series of prequel stories on.

Needless to say, grand pappy sheev fundementally fails at all those points. Sheev is still just a creepy ghoul sorcerer Rey wants to defeat, and Sheev is still a creepy ghoul sorcerer who gives zero fucks about everyone and everything. People joke about people overreacting to the notion Sheev had sex, but Rey having a squick reaction like that to finding out she's a relation to a creature like that is about the limit of dramatic fodder to be mined out of this reveal.
 
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Obviously the impact this has on Luke is very important. He's the primary hero after all, and his father was an important part of his identity. But Luke would have been the primary hero of the OT regardless of the revelation with Vader. The impact this has on Vader id argue is more interesting, since it fundementally transforms the role Vader has in the story. From the badguys scary enforcer goon, to a pivotal tragic figure you could center entire series of prequel stories on.
Making Vader into prequel fodder was no doubt good for Lucasfilm's bottom line, but the main thing is the story you're actually telling.
 
Also Rey's already had the inverse of that gut-punch with Kylo claiming the throne. Realising that this man with whom she has this dangerous, volatile but undeniable connection to (I'm not Reylo but I think it's daft to try and ignore it) isn't the ally she thought he was. And that sets up a distinctive final act to the trilogy, with a more dynamic villain and a more complex relationship to our Jedi.

And you've got room to take Finn and Poe places - heck, a need to when you're robbed of Leia. They've got beef with the First Order. They've none with the Emperor.

Side note: I don't see any value to a Rey Kenobi reveal beyond making some Clone Wars fans go squeee because it'd mean he banged... was it Satine?
 
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Honestly I still don't think Palpatine being her Grandfather was bad, what I think was was bad was the timing of its reveal and in general wasting Palpatine's return they've been all but putting a red neon sign it was coming by throwing it in rise of skywalker instead of keeping it for another series where he could properly be the villain from beginning to end leaving Kylo be the final villain to face in the sequel trilogy.

If they absolutely had to have Palpatine in the final movie of the sequel trilogy they should have done a end credits scene where he expresses disappointment in Kylo Ren and the first order but says everything is going as planned while laughing then widen out the scene showing Exegol with the red armored troopers moving around and the fleet above the planet to hipe things for future movies.
 
Honestly I still don't think Palpatine being her Grandfather was bad, what I think was was bad was the timing of its reveal and in general wasting Palpatine's return they've been all but putting a red neon sign it was coming by throwing it in rise of skywalker instead of keeping it for another series where he could properly be the villain from beginning to end leaving Kylo be the final villain to face in the sequel trilogy.
You don't actually need to bring Palpatine back to get the reveal of Rey's ancestry. She could meet someone else who could tell her, or find it in records somewhere. The only things bringing Palpatine back does is pander to his fans and allow Ian McDiarmid a chance to continue his transmutation into a pig's gluteus maximus. Although hammy Ian McDiarmid covers a lot of sins, as shown by basically every Star Wars movie he's been in.
 
Honestly I still don't think Palpatine being her Grandfather was bad, what I think was was bad was the timing of its reveal and in general wasting Palpatine's return they've been all but putting a red neon sign it was coming by throwing it in rise of skywalker instead of keeping it for another series where he could properly be the villain from beginning to end leaving Kylo be the final villain to face in the sequel trilogy.

If they absolutely had to have Palpatine in the final movie of the sequel trilogy they should have done a end credits scene where he expresses disappointment in Kylo Ren and the first order but says everything is going as planned while laughing then widen out the scene showing Exegol with the red armored troopers moving around and the fleet above the planet to hipe things for future movies.
I do wonder what Abrams would've done with Snoke, assuming that Palpatine was standing in for some of his initial Snoke ideas. Based on what we've seen and heard I hesitate to call it a plan and doubt it would've been all that satisfying, but I'm prepared to bet that the Exegol battle and the throne room would've been in there in some shape or form. Snoke would presumably have just been The Emperor but cranked up, bit like how Palpatine himself was played in IX.

But the issue is, as you've kinda said, they should've just kept building on what was already there. Admittedly I'm one of those who just doesn't see how Kylo Ren can't be a threat, not least with the Knights at his back and a few years' timeskip in which he's been seeking out Sith relics and stuff.

And as for Rey, we've got Rey Nobody already. That one's settled, just move on and embrace new plotlines. Really, looking at how the Inheritance Cycle did this and the retcon there was dull, contrived and kinda redundant (even with the visual interest of a flashback) it's amazing that I didn't realise from the off that it would be a bad idea to retry and undo a big move like that.
 
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I think the greatest flaw of TFA (and the rest of the Sequel Trilogy by extension) is that it pretty much just returned things to the status quo of the original trilogy (Rebels vs Empire) instead of trying to create its own unique story, which required Luke to completely fail to restart the Jedi Order and to have the New Republic to get wiped out early on.
 
I think the greatest flaw of TFA (and the rest of the Sequel Trilogy by extension) is that it pretty much just returned things to the status quo of the original trilogy (Rebels vs Empire) instead of trying to create its own unique story, which required Luke to completely fail to restart the Jedi Order and to have the New Republic to get wiped out early on.
I go back and forth between this and Abrams' refusal or inability to write properly character-driven stories as the primary problem (seriously, it's a huge difference between him and Johnson in all their films). That becomes an issue because it takes Rey, Finn and even Poe and Kylo a whole movie before they're taking control of the narrative in any meaningful way.

I feel like there are a lot of comorbid factors in his writing - and on Star Wars there's the added thing of him being scared to ever do a scene which establishes the state of affairs - misdiagnosing exposition as a key Prequels problem (rather than Lucas' dull execution of those scenes). Even in TRoS, when he tries to redo the conference room scene, he rushes it and doesn't really get into the dynamics within the First Order.

All of that said, though, Lucas did really have a point when he said "there's nothing new." Abrams could've gone to so many places, but he chose to pretty much go Stations of Canon without thinking of the implications for the characters he wanted to venerate.
 
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Let's stick a knife in this absurd notion that JJ had some sort of 'plan' - Daisy Ridley on how he couldn't even commit to his dumbass Rey Palpatine idea during Episode IX's production. It was literally filming and Daisy didn't know.



Its hard to overstate the outrageous level of privilege you enjoy to be hired on one of the biggest movies that will ever be made and to start filming with a script so unfinished that you haven't even decided on the answer to a question you've quite deliberately decided to reopen.


Man honestly hats off to the guy for being slick enough to get the largest studio on the planet to just hand him a quarter of a billion dollars on the strength of some notes scribbled on cocktail napkins.

We have no choice but to stan.
 
Re nothing left to make movies about.

eh the other time period ie old republic, and what ever future Balkanized galaxy happens might be interesting.
 
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