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The thing is that any future balkanized galaxy is going to more or less require putting one's foot into the dreaded politics. And if there is one thing that the big companies are never going to do, it is that.
Star Wars General Discussion Thread
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And yet people are now acting like the plan to have Rey Kenobi was ruined. A plan which never existed. How does he do it? How does he get so many people to believe he has a totally thought-out plan?
Anyways, TRoS. Assuming that Palpatine was added entirely in reshoots, it still doesn't look like the rest of the film was much good. If anything, if it's that malleable to being reshot, it points up Abrams' paucity of constructive ideas.
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TRoS really felt like a series of trailers stringed together, so them being able to add stuff here and there without affecting internal consistency makes an unfortunate amount of sense.
Rey Palpatine (all version of Rey somebody really) was probably a desperate attempt to placate the parts of the fanbase that had not been happy with the TLJ reveal. Or Abrams just likes his mystery boxes too much not to add one about how the eff Palpatine had a secret kid 🤦♀️
Rey Palpatine (all version of Rey somebody really) was probably a desperate attempt to placate the parts of the fanbase that had not been happy with the TLJ reveal. Or Abrams just likes his mystery boxes too much not to add one about how the eff Palpatine had a secret kid 🤦♀️
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Honestly I can't say I ever put much stock in the TLJ reveal because I always viewed it as being in quite possibly the same vein as Vader murdering Anakin Skywalker, in that it is might true from a certain point of view.
As for the matter of Palpatine having off spring was a admittedly legend thing as well though given legends Palpatine apparently had his son tortured into insanity then enslaved as a spice miner for being a pacifist and pretty much murdered almost his entire extended family except for a few nephews and nieces horrifically simply because he could... he wasn't exactly some one you'd want to be related to either closely or distantly.
As for the matter of Palpatine having off spring was a admittedly legend thing as well though given legends Palpatine apparently had his son tortured into insanity then enslaved as a spice miner for being a pacifist and pretty much murdered almost his entire extended family except for a few nephews and nieces horrifically simply because he could... he wasn't exactly some one you'd want to be related to either closely or distantly.
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To be honest, I think the framing is much more in line with I Am Your Father. Everything about the filmmaking and the construction of the story treats it as this massive, devastating truth. Like I say, it's something Rey has to admit to herself and that's an immensely powerful storytelling device. This is pretty much my position with Inception, admittedly; the truth is fundamentally tied to how the story treats it and how it meshes with the themes. Like, you can't do the story of how lineage doesn't matter and anyone can rise to be the hero if they've go the inner strength to do what's right, if you're just hiding that one of the key protagonists is secretly descended from someone hugely powerful and that's what makes her matter. As proven by TRoS.
Plus "filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money" is very specific, as roasted by Jenny Nicholson. "They had your best interests at heart, but money did change hands and they spent it on booze." And even worse, Rey... suddenly remembers them saying they love her?
And again, Palpatine exists totally off to the side of the story. If it had been built in from the start (and if it had, I don't think Johnson would've totally run away from it) it might have worked, but if Abrams really had it planned he should... I dunno, foreshadowed it. Just like he should've actually foreshadowed his intended ancestry for Rey.
If anyone can think of a convincing case of a bombshell on that scale being undone in the next story or chapter, I'd be curious.
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It never really came across as some sort of I am your father sort of bombshell to me perhaps because Kylo Ren always sort of gave me a vague vibe like a abusive boyfriend or stalker in his relationship with Rey which made any sort of truth coming from him seem suspect in my mind.
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Maybe, but it's mirroring what we saw in the cave and like Kylo says, "I've been in your head". Most of all, like I say, it's Rey confronting a truth she's been trying to flee from for years. Whereas if it's a lie which she just buys, hook line and sinker, that weakens her character so much.
I dunno, this feels like years of people treating stories as logic problems poisoning how we interpret art. We no longer look at what it means, we expect everyone to be Abrams or Benioff and Weiss, who we can't trust because they're waiting to suddenly pull something out of nowhere and go "ha! You never saw that coming, did you? Marvel at my brilliance! Never catch me hinting at anything..."
I dunno, this feels like years of people treating stories as logic problems poisoning how we interpret art. We no longer look at what it means, we expect everyone to be Abrams or Benioff and Weiss, who we can't trust because they're waiting to suddenly pull something out of nowhere and go "ha! You never saw that coming, did you? Marvel at my brilliance! Never catch me hinting at anything..."
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GoT showrunners. The guys who kill the Night King off via a character who had nothing to do with him before, leaving the guy at the heart of the White Walker plot with nothing to do. Because, and I quote "she seemed the obvious choice... provided we weren't thinking of her in that moment." It's a shallow pursuit of surprise which doesn't pay off in the long run. It's the opposite of Eowyn killing the Witch-King.
Whereas to quote Johnson: "the first thing to say is coming into writing this or any story the object is not to subvert expectation, the object is not surprise. I think that would lead to some contrived places. The object is drama."
Whereas to quote Johnson: "the first thing to say is coming into writing this or any story the object is not to subvert expectation, the object is not surprise. I think that would lead to some contrived places. The object is drama."
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King Washington
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So I've seen some arguments that it would have have made for a better story if Rey started out as extremely cynical, much more like Han Solo then Luke or Anakin, better reflecting her harsh upbringing and being abandoned by her parents.
Over the course of the trilogy she rediscovers her long abandoned idealism and grows into the hero the Galaxy needs.
Over the course of the trilogy she rediscovers her long abandoned idealism and grows into the hero the Galaxy needs.
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I mean, that would actually reflect her background.
On that note, I've been thinking about ways to improve Finn's initial appearance in a couple of easy steps. The first would be to have him hesitant to fire on his erstwhile comrades. You can even work that into the tether moment with the stolen TIE. Stormtroopers start firing and Poe says something like "I don't wanna make you do this, but unless you fire back the escape ends here.
That would give you suspense - you feel for Finn, but at the same time you know Poe's right, and it could give us a moment of real tension. Plus immediately we have the conflict within Finn established.
And then either you keep Poe with Finn - with the bonus that they actually have time to bond on the flight or hike to Niima Outpost - or have Finn seriously affected by Poe's "death". Then, when he meets BB-8, he thinks that he owes it to Poe to get BB-8 to safety, and it tips him a bit further towards the Resistance.
And then, maybe Han's not gone back to being a smuggler but is instead a commander in the Resistance.
On that note, I've been thinking about ways to improve Finn's initial appearance in a couple of easy steps. The first would be to have him hesitant to fire on his erstwhile comrades. You can even work that into the tether moment with the stolen TIE. Stormtroopers start firing and Poe says something like "I don't wanna make you do this, but unless you fire back the escape ends here.
That would give you suspense - you feel for Finn, but at the same time you know Poe's right, and it could give us a moment of real tension. Plus immediately we have the conflict within Finn established.
And then either you keep Poe with Finn - with the bonus that they actually have time to bond on the flight or hike to Niima Outpost - or have Finn seriously affected by Poe's "death". Then, when he meets BB-8, he thinks that he owes it to Poe to get BB-8 to safety, and it tips him a bit further towards the Resistance.
And then, maybe Han's not gone back to being a smuggler but is instead a commander in the Resistance.
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Sulemain
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Also for the love of god don't make an actor of John Boyega's calibre a glorified extra ffs.
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Finn and Rey's starting points are really frustrating, because you don't want to sacrifice that likeability but at the same time neither of them really make sense given their backgrounds. If you start with prickly scavenger and traumatised Stormtrooper, it's harder to make them fall into sync together.
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It's not the starting points, that is an attempt to switch blame, the problem is that Johnson kicked every bit of the sandcastle down.
especially when it comes to the big bad. Unless you bring Snoke bake from the dead there is no one with the narrative weight to be the big bad except Kylo Renn.
Blaming TFA for the plot problems in a trilogy that TLJ created is really kind of dumb.
The thing is that I don't even blame Johnson for the issues, he was a director making the movie he wanted, the issue is at a producer/production level and not being able to maintain a steady tone through out the series, especially as it was/marketed as the third part of a three part series.
The marvel universe manageS to hold a constant tone even though Individual films can vary wildly, but it is only because they have the depth of canon, Star Wars did not have that and the subvert every expectation effort Of TLJ threw a bunch of sand in the gears.
especially when it comes to the big bad. Unless you bring Snoke bake from the dead there is no one with the narrative weight to be the big bad except Kylo Renn.
Blaming TFA for the plot problems in a trilogy that TLJ created is really kind of dumb.
The thing is that I don't even blame Johnson for the issues, he was a director making the movie he wanted, the issue is at a producer/production level and not being able to maintain a steady tone through out the series, especially as it was/marketed as the third part of a three part series.
The marvel universe manageS to hold a constant tone even though Individual films can vary wildly, but it is only because they have the depth of canon, Star Wars did not have that and the subvert every expectation effort Of TLJ threw a bunch of sand in the gears.
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I suppose if nothing else all three sequel films did a pretty good job of leaving the star wars galaxy is a state that makes rehashing the original series or the prequels impossible.
The empire remnants are broken, the third galactic republic is dead ending for now the old long tens of thousands year old dream of pan galactic civilization and naught remains of the jedi order that once protected the galaxy for over a thousand generations but a few remote stragglers in the remote corners of the galaxy with the same going for the sith and the status of other light and dark side orders completely unknown.
All that remains is for the galaxy to move forward as all try to rebuild and forge new futures in the ruins of the old.
The empire remnants are broken, the third galactic republic is dead ending for now the old long tens of thousands year old dream of pan galactic civilization and naught remains of the jedi order that once protected the galaxy for over a thousand generations but a few remote stragglers in the remote corners of the galaxy with the same going for the sith and the status of other light and dark side orders completely unknown.
All that remains is for the galaxy to move forward as all try to rebuild and forge new futures in the ruins of the old.
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I really don't see TLJ as kicking things down. Abrams just threw out a ton of questions with a film that didn't take half as much time to develop its characters or version of the setting as it should've done. Johnson answered a bunch of those questions and built up the conflicts, making the core struggle more personal.
I'd go further and say that unlike TFA, TLJ leaves a number of clear conflicts to drive the story to a close. We no longer have vague mysteries, we have a number of possibilities that could go two or more ways.Kylo Ren as the big bad, in particular, is an excellent idea. His instability and feud with Hux are his regime's potential stumbling blocks, along with Luke's sacrifice inspiring people as depicted at the end of TLJ.
For me TFA really is a bad first film in all those regards. The two leads are nice, but they don't make psychological sense and their character development is more like ping-pong balls than arcs. They just do what the plot requires.
Rey has no relationship to the Force. We don't know how she feels about the power she's suddenly discovered, and only one bit of her vision with the saber relates directly to her. Even then, Abrams is too busy going "I wonder who this character I wrote is!" instead of giving it any meaning to Rey.
Even the reveal of where Skywalker is comes because R2 just chooses to power up... because it's time for the film to end and we need a happy resolution.
Rey doesn't even get to drive the plot at all in her first film and Finn barely does. The result is a story that doesn't really feel like it's theirs, it's just one that they're in. Poe is an absolute nothing apart from being brave and kind. And they're meant to be our new protagonists.
The Resistance-First Order conflict isn't defined at all. We see worlds blown up and it takes the next film to understand why it matters.
Tonal variances I'm relatively OK with. I vibe just fine with TLJ and don't think it differs that much from TFA.
I'd go further and say that unlike TFA, TLJ leaves a number of clear conflicts to drive the story to a close. We no longer have vague mysteries, we have a number of possibilities that could go two or more ways.Kylo Ren as the big bad, in particular, is an excellent idea. His instability and feud with Hux are his regime's potential stumbling blocks, along with Luke's sacrifice inspiring people as depicted at the end of TLJ.
For me TFA really is a bad first film in all those regards. The two leads are nice, but they don't make psychological sense and their character development is more like ping-pong balls than arcs. They just do what the plot requires.
Rey has no relationship to the Force. We don't know how she feels about the power she's suddenly discovered, and only one bit of her vision with the saber relates directly to her. Even then, Abrams is too busy going "I wonder who this character I wrote is!" instead of giving it any meaning to Rey.
Even the reveal of where Skywalker is comes because R2 just chooses to power up... because it's time for the film to end and we need a happy resolution.
Rey doesn't even get to drive the plot at all in her first film and Finn barely does. The result is a story that doesn't really feel like it's theirs, it's just one that they're in. Poe is an absolute nothing apart from being brave and kind. And they're meant to be our new protagonists.
The Resistance-First Order conflict isn't defined at all. We see worlds blown up and it takes the next film to understand why it matters.
Tonal variances I'm relatively OK with. I vibe just fine with TLJ and don't think it differs that much from TFA.
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Snoke getting offed was one of TLJ's best decisions. TFA clearly establishes that its Kylo Ren and his relationship to our protagonist, Leia and Luke that is at the centre of all the story's drama, and Adam Driver (one of the finest actors working today) versus Andy Serkis in mocap isn't at all a hard decision for who should be driving a story.
Snoke is a nothing character with no really meaningful dramatic connection to any other character but Kylo Ren, and anyone put in the same room as him would have no motivation to do anything with Snoke apart from fighting and killing him.
The preoccupation with Snoke and his backstory amongst the fandom is just yet another example of the effects of TFA's smoke and mirrors show - he's an empty vessel that they gave no serious thought to - to the extent that what he even looked like was only decided very late in the production process.
The final film didn't need to end with a wrinkly old dude on a throne. TLJ was basically trying to compel the third movie to be different from ROTJ.
Snoke is a nothing character with no really meaningful dramatic connection to any other character but Kylo Ren, and anyone put in the same room as him would have no motivation to do anything with Snoke apart from fighting and killing him.
The preoccupation with Snoke and his backstory amongst the fandom is just yet another example of the effects of TFA's smoke and mirrors show - he's an empty vessel that they gave no serious thought to - to the extent that what he even looked like was only decided very late in the production process.
The final film didn't need to end with a wrinkly old dude on a throne. TLJ was basically trying to compel the third movie to be different from ROTJ.
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Serkis still did great work with what he had. Snoke is decadent and just plain nasty in TLJ, in ways I love. In the old version of events, I would've quite liked a story of his rise to power.
Basically it's a matter of plot beats, as the mid point in a trilogy, that is supposed to be the resolution to two previous trilogies it hits the breaks flow wise pretty hard.
and really the two do share a lot of the same issues which characters Reacting to stuff rather then doing stuff. But really that's while bad somewhat forgivable.
really it's to me it's the Snoke Kylo problem. You can kill Snoke or you can redeem Kylo.
I agree that Kylo as the big bad would have made more sense based on TLJ, but the problem is I don't see how Ben not turning back to the light squares with the over arching themes of Star Wars.
Maybe if there was some parallel earlier with Rey knowing she is a Palpatine you could do a "it's not your Heritage that defines you but your choices" type thing which seems like what TLJ was going for but IDK.
there is Also the whole duality in the force roommate in your head thing which really for me moved the movie in the Reylo show, which I get why , but just why
Anyway I think it's fair to say that all three films have flaws, and those flaws are products of the movies they are in, because as it's been pointed out there was never really a plan. There was not an episode 8 or 9 that should have happened that got messed up.
and really the two do share a lot of the same issues which characters Reacting to stuff rather then doing stuff. But really that's while bad somewhat forgivable.
really it's to me it's the Snoke Kylo problem. You can kill Snoke or you can redeem Kylo.
I agree that Kylo as the big bad would have made more sense based on TLJ, but the problem is I don't see how Ben not turning back to the light squares with the over arching themes of Star Wars.
Maybe if there was some parallel earlier with Rey knowing she is a Palpatine you could do a "it's not your Heritage that defines you but your choices" type thing which seems like what TLJ was going for but IDK.
there is Also the whole duality in the force roommate in your head thing which really for me moved the movie in the Reylo show, which I get why , but just why
Anyway I think it's fair to say that all three films have flaws, and those flaws are products of the movies they are in, because as it's been pointed out there was never really a plan. There was not an episode 8 or 9 that should have happened that got messed up.
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But as we've said before, there's nothing wrong with building a trilogy cumulatively. If anything, planning three films before you start limits you hugely - just imagine how stunted a whole Abrams trilogy would've been.
It just takes a good foundation to build, and TLJ did remarkably well on a shaky foundation.
Actually, I wanna dispute the thing that Star Wars is about redemption. Return of the Jedi is, the saga as a whole isn't. The OT is mainly Luke's story, and Vader's redemption hinges on Luke's growth and learning to see the full truth of his father. So many villains in the series just die without redemption, not least Kylo's slave-soldiers - by the million. The Clone Wars gets into very different territory with its treatment of Maul.
The way Ben Solo is redeemed by the love of Rey and Leia also sends a whole load of really grisly messages.
It just takes a good foundation to build, and TLJ did remarkably well on a shaky foundation.
Actually, I wanna dispute the thing that Star Wars is about redemption. Return of the Jedi is, the saga as a whole isn't. The OT is mainly Luke's story, and Vader's redemption hinges on Luke's growth and learning to see the full truth of his father. So many villains in the series just die without redemption, not least Kylo's slave-soldiers - by the million. The Clone Wars gets into very different territory with its treatment of Maul.
The way Ben Solo is redeemed by the love of Rey and Leia also sends a whole load of really grisly messages.
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With the prequels it is pretty explicitly the Anakin/Vader story, hell Lucas said he was pretty much done at that point ( until several dump trucks full of money showed up) because that was the end of the story.
Also let's not pretend that there isn't a massive difference between what happens to main characters and background/secondary characters.
though I will agree one of my most hated tropes is the protagonist mowing down moons like wheat only to not kill the person that killed their family/shot their dog "because it would make them like them"
Also as a side note, the old joke about Sith Lords falling down pits needs to be reworked, because I think they actually survived all of them except the last one.
Also let's not pretend that there isn't a massive difference between what happens to main characters and background/secondary characters.
though I will agree one of my most hated tropes is the protagonist mowing down moons like wheat only to not kill the person that killed their family/shot their dog "because it would make them like them"
Also as a side note, the old joke about Sith Lords falling down pits needs to be reworked, because I think they actually survived all of them except the last one.
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But Kylo is also a different man to Anakin. His redemption essentially pushes the message that actually, he is more important than other people and his bloodline/power makes the acts of violence he chooses to commit irrelevant.
Which is a problem when Abrams milks those acts. His first acts onscreen are to murder an old man and order a massacre. Even leaving aside the Han question, when he acts Finn he's clearly working to inflict pain, not just beat him.
Admittedly in IX Abrams tries really hard to gloss over his badness, but he still has Kylo force Rey to commit manslaughter, despite the film trying to make it look like Rey's fault.
Which is a problem when Abrams milks those acts. His first acts onscreen are to murder an old man and order a massacre. Even leaving aside the Han question, when he acts Finn he's clearly working to inflict pain, not just beat him.
Admittedly in IX Abrams tries really hard to gloss over his badness, but he still has Kylo force Rey to commit manslaughter, despite the film trying to make it look like Rey's fault.
Hah, I know what twitter thread you've been reading
I think saying ROTJ is about redemption and the saga isn't is kind of a nitpick that elides what George says Star Wars is about and ignores the role the ending of the trilogy does to serve as a capstone to the whole story.
Similarly I think its a somewhat overly literal take about Ben Solo/Kylo Ren that doesn't really engage with how we relate to characters in fiction. By being one of the main characters, by being the son of Han and Leia and the nephew of Luke - yes, he's more important than some random trooper (who RotS also should've saved! Absolutely! They set up an army of slave-child soldiers and did nothing with it! They doomed them! Fuck!). There's nothing wrong with that - it's the nature of fictional stories.
I also think the argument that this is some sort of bad message is not an argument anyone who's had a child would ever make. Like the idea that parents who have a place in the story and the audience's sentiments should somehow stop loving their son and its somehow acceptable to have him just die without trying to the end to save him - that's a really, really depressing message.
I'm leery of 'message for the kids' arguments generally, because they can go either way, but its equally arguable that if you're a sufficiently bad person your family just abandons you and you don't deserve your parent's love anymore is equally problematic.
I don't mind that tweeter generally, but I think he's one of those guys that just ... fundamentally didn't get what TLJ's ending really came down on in terms of Ben Solo. It was not that he was irredeemable. Like every single comment Rian has made on the subject has indicated quite the opposite. Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is a character Rian actually identifies with and wants the audience to relate to, as he once patiently explained on twitter to someone incensed at the prospect ("it's not about imagining yourself literally doing what the character is doing on screen", he explained).
I don't see how there's any material difference whatsoever between Anakin and Ben for redemption discourse. If this is a message that is being sent, its identical for both. Anakin murdered actual toddlers in cold blood, dude's soul still got saved at the end.
I think it confuses the issue somewhat to go into what the characters were made to do and didn't do by the writing, but like - it was Rey's fault. She initiated the duel and insisted on prosecuting it even when Ben didn't. Kylo didn't force her into attacking him, that's a choice she made. That he destroyed her bauble isn't an excuse for wanting to kill him. The writing in that scene is all going back to Rey's 'genetic darkness'
from being a Palpatine than anything to do with Ben.
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But he's still doing it with the explicit intent of making her join him as a genocidal warlord. He's coercing her every step of the way.
I'm not anti Kylo being redeemed in principle, but I don't think it was the only option and they did it very much the wrong way.
And there is one key material difference: Vader was broken to Palpatine's service (I also think his fall was poorly done for what that's worth) whereas Kylo is now the one giving orders. Every city that burns, every execution is in his name from now on. And he had the chance to stop it.
I'm not anti Kylo being redeemed in principle, but I don't think it was the only option and they did it very much the wrong way.
And there is one key material difference: Vader was broken to Palpatine's service (I also think his fall was poorly done for what that's worth) whereas Kylo is now the one giving orders. Every city that burns, every execution is in his name from now on. And he had the chance to stop it.
So? He's trying to convince her to join him, not forcing her into attacking her. She made that choice. He didn't make it for her.
Oh yeah look I hate that they had Leia actually kill herself to reach him. I'm sick and tired of movies glorifying suicidal sacrifice as some sort of Ultimate Good, and that applies to both Leia and Ben himself later in the film. Generally its not very well handled, like so much in TROS isn't.
But sure, Kylo's giving orders, but he was still broken to Snoke's service before that. That Kylo killed Snoke didn't magically fix him, all that damage was still done and still affected him. I think it's an overly technical "just following orders" distinction - Vader could've stopped at any point too, it doesn't matter that Palpatine was there to punish him.