Star Wars General Discussion Thread

Actually Abrams probably would've done this; he's talked about how he was shocked that Johnson wanted to give Luke a dramatic arc.

Pretty baffling thing to say for a normal writer, given he helped write a movie whose entire premise is that Luke Skywalker has totally abandoned the galaxy without so much as a "see you later" to literally anyone who knows him. But that's typical of Abrams - all he cares about is what people feel in the moment, and if he had written Episode VIII he absolutely would've just ignored the premise of his previous film and instead made out that Luke was on some dumbass Secret Jedi Mission, ready to instantly spout Wise Yodaisms at Rey the moment she waved the Holy Blue under his nose.

Any objections about just wtf Luke was doing for the past X many years while everyone killed themselves on an intergalactic inscrutably dumb MacGuffin hunt to find him would be instantly swept under the rug by a well-placed action sequence. Can't let anyone sit and talk for more than 30 seconds at a time after all.
 
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Pretty baffling thing to say for a normal writer, given he helped write a movie whose entire premise is that Luke Skywalker has totally abandoned the galaxy without so much as a "see you later" to literally anyone who knows him. But that's typical of Abrams - all he cares about is what people feel in the moment, and if he had written Episode VIII he absolutely would've just ignored the premise of his previous film and instead made out that Luke was on some dumbass Secret Jedi Mission, ready to instantly spout Wise Yodaisms at Rey the moment she waved the Holy Blue under his nose.

Any objections about just wtf Luke was doing for the past X many years while everyone killed themselves on an intergalactic inscrutably dumb MacGuffin hunt to find him would be instantly swept under the rug by a well-placed action sequence. Can't let anyone sit and talk for more than 30 seconds at a time after all.
I feel like there might be an amusing parody to be made of this approach, but I have too many marginally more worthwhile fics to write.

I've got caught up in fleshing out my headcanon timeskip.
 
But back to Finn! It's been widely noted Boyega gives JJ a huge, obviously undeserved pass for how his character was treated in both TFA and TROS and frankly I think it's down to nothing more than the fact that JJ cast him. I certainly can't think of any other reason why he'd explicitly go to bat for him like he does. In the interview it reads like he's nebulously blaming 'Disney' rather than JJ/Terrio for the decisions made in TROS, and - well - who wrote and directed the movie again?

That's particularly the case when he refers to Kelly Marie Tran being egregiously deleted from TROS' narrative altogether. It's the most craven and obvious capitulation to shitty, racist fans imaginable. But JJ didn't do anything wrong? How does that make sense?
I think Boyega (for good reasons) sees his character as sidelined primarily in TLJ (he goes from 30 to 17 minutes of screen time). And that Abram's had no obligation to return and try to make something out of the last movie of the franchise, that due to the abysmal lack of planning was always going to be a shit show. That combined with casting and probably a more positive personal relationship makes him more forgiving.


"Someone told me that this game, which I have not played, endorses torture as a form of coercion because in the narrative a character is tortured and in a moment of weakness gives in. Shame in Disney!"
If only they had given other examples of this occurring as well.... wait, they did 🤷‍♀️
I don't think discussing how creator choose to portray torture in media, especially within the same franchise, is weird. I agree that the OT does not present torture as a very efficient method of information gathering. Leia was not meant to be force sensitive when she was tortured, just a trained operative.

And oh joy, now the narrative is setting in that Johnson's treatment of Poe was racist. As opposed to an effort to give any recognisable flaws to a character whose first appease amounted solely to "he's kind and brave and he flies real good!"
Or alternatively it's about how his bravery tipped into recklessness and he had to learn that you can't always win by fighting directly against overwhelming odds. Leia and Holdo's race isn't the important factor, their rank is and in any case the Resistance are worried about being spied on.
His arc played in to stereotypes about Latino men being reckless hotheads, in a way I think it's very fair to critique. Also, Leia and Hold's race not being important to you, doesn't make it not important to other. Everything about Hold's character was a creative choice, open to criticism.
Not to mention that Holdo never says she fears they are being spied on, or does anything to communicate her plan with a crew increasingly seized by panic. Not talking to Poe is made even worse by how his arc in the ST is becoming the next leader of the Resistance, a role Leia was grooming her for, which Holdo as a friend of hers ought to know. This isn't any random pilot, it's someone that''s going to become on of their future leaders.
 
Nonetheless, Poe has screwed up royally at this point and it's entirely plausible that he'd kick off at the notion of running. The crew as a whole goes along with the orders; we have the doomed pilot of one of the smaller ships saluting Holdo in his last moments. We even see that with how Poe only enlists, what, five people for his coup and most of them are his own pilots.

I'm just dubious about whether Johnson was playing to a racial stereotype as opposed to working from the character presented to him in some of the prior materials - as I understand it, in the comics Poe was already depicted as something of a loose cannon who needed to learn to rein himself in. And in the story, Poe is riding high on the back of the success on Takodana, and a really big victory with the Starkiller mission. So he's looking at this Dreadnought and like he says, "We've pulled crazier stunts than this."

It's an attitude I've seen in whitewater kayaking, and it's one I've fallen prey to myself. You lose sight of some factors (not least because you're often a guy in his late teens or early 20s), and end up running a rapid which you probably should walk around.

Abram's had no obligation to return and try to make something out of the last movie of the franchise, that due to the abysmal lack of planning was always going to be a shit show.
We went over this several pages back: the lack of an over-arching plan doesn't preclude the story working. The Dark Knight Trilogy and the new Planet of the Apes (which even switched directors partway through) were both written on a "here's the prior entry, where can we go from here?" basis and while they didn't have carry the same protagonist-antagonist dynamic across their arcs, still worked as cohesive trilogies. The Rise of Skywalker fails because Abrams and Terrio grab a bunch of stuff from the prior film and instead of saying "yes and" or "yes but", go "well ACTUALLY..."

So we don't get a film which feels like a third film, and certainly not a culmination. It doesn't change the core conflict, it swaps it for a different one. It doesn't set up new character arcs for its heroes; for the most part it walks them back to where they were at the end of the first film except for Finn, who is around Rey but whose only "meaningful" moment strips his defection of any moral agency. Themes are dealt with via lip service which the events of the narrative actively contradict.

And most of that is on how Abrams tells a story, because we've seen him pull this in Into Darkness. Seriously, Kirk goes back to being the reckless guy who's put under Pyke's supervision, he's in conflict with Spock again while the entire crew have to relearn how to work together.
 
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Hmm even if Johnson wasn't playing to a negative racial stereotype its something they should likely have been more careful about especially given Star Wars has gotten flack about such things in the past relating to the prequels.

Also when working with a character that appears in movies, comics and other media its likely not wise to use character depictions that appears in other media but not in a previous film or films unless you are willing put extra work into your film relating to so it doesn't coming out of nowhere for viewers as its quite possible and likely many in your audience may have never read lets say comics or books put out since they watched the previous film.
 
Hmm even if Johnson wasn't playing to a negative racial stereotype its something they should likely have been more careful about especially given Star Wars has gotten flack about such things in the past relating to the prequels.

Also when working with a character that appears in movies, comics and other media its likely not wise to use character depictions that appears in other media but not in a previous film or films unless you are willing put extra work into your film relating to so it doesn't coming out of nowhere for viewers as its quite possible and likely many in your audience may have never read lets say comics or books put out since they watched the previous film.
Perhaps, but for me this kinda comes back to Poe in TFA being a likeable nothing. For me, he still feels like the same character when we meet him in TLJ, but we're seeing more sides to him and with the aforementioned confidence stemming from his recent successes, which tip him over into recklessness. It's there in the dialogue to BB-8 and Leia.

I think it's a credit to Johnson that for me, it feels like a layer is peeled back and we get a new angle on the characters rather than their personalities change wholesale. Rey's desire to find her parents is still there... but we see it more fully and understand that a deeper want lies beneath it, which is her need for validation and belonging.
 
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If only they had given other examples of this occurring as well.... wait, they did 🤷‍♀️
I don't think discussing how creator choose to portray torture in media, especially within the same franchise, is weird. I agree that the OT does not present torture as a very efficient method of information gathering. Leia was not meant to be force sensitive when she was tortured, just a trained operative.

If only their examples actually made sense as supporting evidence that Star Wars, a movie about space wizards for children, is actually concerned with philosophically interrogating the idea that torture is an effective means of coercion. Spoiler alert - Star Wars has not, nor has it ever been, concerned with those questions. When Leia gets tortured by the Empire in ANH, it's to demonstrate that the Empire was really bad guys. When we next see her, literally nothing about her personality has changed - she's still shit talking Tarkin and Vader to their faces.

In TESB, Han gets lowered into the Space Iron Maiden because (again) the Empire are the bad guys. Han even says something like "they didn't even ask me anything" - they're just fucking with him because they're Evil, and because it's sort-of implied that Vader's deliberately fucking with Luke's friends in order to entice him to Cloud City. When we see Han again he looks like shit, but he bounces back and never once mentions his experiences again.

If RadiantPheonix had bothered to play Fallen Order (instead of once again popping off about how any piece of Star Wars they don't like is WrongBad), they'd know that the character in question has captured and interrogated and questioned by the Empire, and who gave up the location of some Padawans in a moment of weakness. This moment isn't meant to raise questions about how Torture Is Actually Good - it's meant to tip the player off that hey, maybe the heroes aren't the best people to restart the Jedi order (the overarching goal of the game)?

Again, Star Wars isn't Zero Dark Thirty IN SPAAAAAACE! It's re-using pulp conventions in a space opera setting. The characters being tortured is just the usual I Have You Now My Pretty! shit, except instead of complicated death traps it's a robot with a syringe.
 
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If only their examples actually made sense as supporting evidence that Star Wars, a movie about space wizards for children, is actually concerned with philosophically interrogating the idea that torture is an effective means of coercion. Spoiler alert - Star Wars has not, nor has it ever been, concerned with those questions. When Leia gets tortured by the Empire in ANH, it's to demonstrate that the Empire was really bad guys. When we next see her, literally nothing about her personality has changed - she's still shit talking Tarkin and Vader to their faces.

In TESB, Han gets lowered into the Space Iron Maiden because (again) the Empire are the bad guys. Han even says something like "they didn't even ask me anything" - they're just fucking with him because they're Evil, and because it's sort-of implied that Vader's deliberately fucking with Luke's friends in order to entice him to Cloud City. When we see Han again he looks like shit, but he bounces back and never once mentions his experiences again.

If Radiant Pheonix had bothered to play Fallen Order (instead of once again popping off about how any piece of Star Wars they don't like is WrongBad), they'd know that the character in question has captured and interrogated and questioned by the Empire, and who gave up the location of some Padawans after breaking. This moment isn't meant to raise questions about how Torture Is Actually Good - it's meant to tip the player off that hey, maybe the heroes aren't the best people to restart the Jedi order (the overarching goal of the game)?

Again, Star Wars isn't Zero Dark Thirty IN SPAAAAAACE! It's re-using pulp conventions in a space opera setting. The characters being tortured is just the usual I Have You Now My Pretty! shit, except instead of complicated death traps it's a robot with a syringe.
In Leia's case it's also to amp up the stakes around the Death Star plans. By the time the Rebels have got their mitts on the plans, a ship's company has been slaughtered, a young woman tortured and a planet blasted to atoms in order to stop this from happening. And as a rule, it's much more directly related to the characters' emotional experience. Poe is tortured, then is rescued, fake dies and vanishes from the plot. Hosnian Prime dies in flame... in the third shot where we see it, and we don't know anyone who really cares about the Republic.

I'm thinking more and more that Poe should've survived and brought Finn and Rey along on this adventure. You could even lose the "suddenly Rey's a pilot" moment with him there to fly the Falcon.
 
If only their examples actually made sense as supporting evidence that Star Wars, a movie about space wizards for children, is actually concerned with philosophically interrogating the idea that torture is an effective means of coercion. Spoiler alert - Star Wars has not, nor has it ever been, concerned with those questions. When Leia gets tortured by the Empire in ANH, it's to demonstrate that the Empire was really bad guys. When we next see her, literally nothing about her personality has changed - she's still shit talking Tarkin and Vader to their faces.
Whether or not they intended to endorse torture doesn't change whether it actually does endorse torture.

Writing your space-magic such that torture makes it more effective at interrogating is endorsing torture, and that is bad, regardless of whether you intended to do that.

When your torture scenes involve space magic, realism is no longer an excuse, because you have rewritten physics to convey your message.

... and this isn't even getting into the topic of how real(istic) people respond to real(istic) torture without the presence of space magic.
 
Whether or not they intended to endorse torture doesn't change whether it actually does endorse torture.

Writing your space-magic such that torture makes it more effective at interrogating is endorsing torture, and that is bad, regardless of whether you intended to do that.

When your torture scenes involve space magic, realism is no longer an excuse, because you have rewritten physics to convey your message.

... and this isn't even getting into the topic of how real(istic) people respond to real(istic) torture without the presence of space magic.

By this same logic, Star Wars endorses the violent overthrow of the government via spectacular acts of terrorism like destroying military institutions.

It doesn't matter if that's what Lucas didn't intend, what matters is that this is a plausible read of the movie. It's all the more egregious given that Lucas warps the narrative of the world to justify this, such as making the Empire so eye-rollingly evil. He really tips his hand by turning the story of a young man being radicalized by religious extremists into one of heroic spiritual self-actualization.
 
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By this same logic, Star Wars endorses the violent overthrow of the government via spectacular acts of terrorism like destroying military institutions.

It doesn't matter if that's what Lucas didn't intend, what matters is that this is a plausible read of the movie. It's all the more egregious given that Lucas warps the narrative of the world to justify this, such as making the Empire so eye-rollingly evil. He really tips his hand by turning the story of a young man being radicalized by religious extremists into one of heroic spiritual self-actualization.
Oh, you gone done it now.

Tangential question: when did Star Wars begin leaning really hard into the whole "will of the Force" stuff? Obviously it took a backseat in TLJ/was thrown out by Johnson in favour of having characters driving things, but when did it start? The Phantom Menace?
 
By this same logic, Star Wars endorses the violent overthrow of the government via spectacular acts of terrorism like destroying military institutions.

It doesn't matter if that's what Lucas didn't intend, what matters is that this is a plausible read of the movie. It's all the more egregious given that Lucas warps the narrative of the world to justify this, such as making the Empire so eye-rollingly evil. He really tips his hand by turning the story of a young man being radicalized by religious extremists into one of heroic spiritual self-actualization.
I think we've started getting to the heart of things.

Do you think the Empire is unrealistically evil?

Do you consider those who violently rebel against Nazis and CSA types to be the "real" villains?

Do you hate John Brown?

Sometimes good and evil really are that simple.
 
I think we've started getting to the heart of things.

Do you think the Empire is unrealistically evil?

Do you consider those who violently rebel against Nazis and CSA types to be the "real" villains?

Do you hate John Brown?

Sometimes good and evil really are that simple.
He's being hyperbolic to illustrate his point. He's not saying the Rebels are the bad guys, he's saying that depiction is not the same as endorsement.
 
I think we've started getting to the heart of things.

Do you think the Empire is unrealistically evil?

Do you consider those who violently rebel against Nazis and CSA types to be the "real" villains?

Do you hate John Brown?

Sometimes good and evil really are that simple.

Lol I'm out here recycling an Onion headline and you're asking me if I think slavery was cool.
 
I mean considering how there are actual Empire apologists out there, the questions doesn't seem out of the realm of realism. Glad to see you aren't one of them though!
 
He's being hyperbolic to illustrate his point. He's not saying the Rebels are the bad guys, he's saying that depiction is not the same as endorsement.
Lol I'm out here recycling an Onion headline and you're asking me if I think slavery was cool.
Arthur's post was clearly framed as a counter-argument, implying that they do believe that what the Rebellion was doing in A New Hope was bad.

Once you strip out Arthur's weaseling and equivocation between Nazis and Antifa via vague wording, the question they present is basically, "Does Star Wars endorse violently destroying the military institutions of evil governments that engage in genocide and torture while removing democratic processes that might rein them in?" to which the answer is obviously, "YES, and it is right to do so."
 
Arthur's post was clearly framed as a counter-argument, implying that they do believe that what the Rebellion was doing in A New Hope was bad.

Once you strip out Arthur's weaseling and equivocation between Nazis and Antifa via vague wording, the question they present is basically, "Does Star Wars endorse violently destroying the military institutions of evil governments that engage in genocide and torture while removing democratic processes that might rein them in?" to which the answer is obviously, "YES, and it is right to do so."
Arthur was using a deliberately extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the stance you were accusing him... me, of? I lost track of the original argument.
 
Arthur was using a deliberately extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the stance you were accusing him... me, of? I lost track of the original argument.
Oh, the original argument was that portraying torture as an effective interrogation technique is supporting torture.

The extended argument would that the idea that torture is an effective method of gathering information is a meme promoted by torturers that should not be accepted at face value, and doesn't really offer much of value to storytelling anyway.

Accepting the meme allows torturers to frame the debate over whether to torture as "do we cling to moral principles, or do we do what it takes to win?", while questioning the meme leaves that argument high and dry, because it's at minimum not clear that torture is an effective method of gathering information, and I'm pretty sure it's clear that torture is not an effective method of gathering information, so the actual question is, "do we endorse torture, or do we reject torture and instead do what it takes to win."

As for torture-endorsement not offering much of value to storytelling, I think A New Hope did a good job here, when it had Vader decide to use trickery instead of torture by putting a tracking device on the Falcon and facilitating Leia's escape.

Other works of fiction should be more like A New Hope in this respect.
 
Oh, the original argument was that portraying torture as an effective interrogation technique is supporting torture.

The extended argument would that the idea that torture is an effective method of gathering information is a meme promoted by torturers that should not be accepted at face value, and doesn't really offer much of value to storytelling anyway.

Accepting the meme allows torturers to frame the debate over whether to torture as "do we cling to moral principles, or do we do what it takes to win?", while questioning the meme leaves that argument high and dry, because it's at minimum not clear that torture is an effective method of gathering information, and I'm pretty sure it's clear that torture is not an effective method of gathering information, so the actual question is, "do we endorse torture, or do we reject torture and instead do what it takes to win."

As for torture-endorsement not offering much of value to storytelling, I think A New Hope did a good job here, when it had Vader decide to use trickery instead of torture by putting a tracking device on the Falcon and facilitating Leia's escape.

Other works of fiction should be more like A New Hope in this respect.
The thing is that Star Wars isn't getting into that because the only people doing the torture are Bad, Bad People, so does that argument really apply here?

Gross as it is to say, there are instances in history in which torture has produced results. None of which makes it any less repugnant and therefore it would be insane to have a Star Wars hero do it, but if it never ever worked then it would make zero sense for anyone to have done it in history and therefore for it to be present in fiction.

Moreover, in the case of Fallen Order it all hinges on the character conflict at play because our sympathies for the characters are made to clash. We can understand someone being broken by this dreadful ordead and giving up a person they care for, so we don't just go "oh how selfish" whilst also sympathising with the Inquisitor, because her evil is in part the result of her betrayal by a surrogate parent. It's all about the complicated emotions of that conflict, not all that far from how Luke's moment of desperate temptation was the catalyst for Kylo Ren's creation.
 
Gross as it is to say, there are instances in history in which torture has produced results. None of which makes it any less repugnant and therefore it would be insane to have a Star Wars hero do it, but if it never ever worked then it would make zero sense for anyone to have done it in history and therefore for it to be present in fiction.
This is a non-sequitur. Torture does not need to be an effective interrogation technique in order for people to use it as an interrogation technique.

Sometimes people hate other people and want to hurt them, and torturing someone is certainly an effective method of hurting them.

From there, it's a simple step to torturers making up memes about torture being an effective interrogation technique as self-justification and ass-covering.
 
This is a non-sequitur. Torture does not need to be an effective interrogation technique in order for people to use it as an interrogation technique.

Sometimes people hate other people and want to hurt them, and torturing someone is certainly an effective method of hurting them.

From there, it's a simple step to torturers making up memes about torture being an effective interrogation technique as self-justification and ass-covering.
Yes, but what you're pushing isn't a logical thing really; it's an emotional or philosophical conviction which, as far as I can tell, you think should be pushed in basically all Star Wars media. And I'm saying that in Fallen Order, torture is present in backstory for a very different purpose, whilst observing that the efficacy of torture and its repugnance are two separate things, and the former wouldn't rule out the latter in any case.
 
Yes, but what you're pushing isn't a logical thing really; it's an emotional or philosophical conviction which, as far as I can tell, you think should be pushed in basically all Star Wars media. And I'm saying that in Fallen Order, torture is present in backstory for a very different purpose, whilst observing that the efficacy of torture and its repugnance are two separate things, and the former wouldn't rule out the latter in any case.
Most of my argument after the beginning was based on you saying this:
As for Poe... a man who'd already been tortured had a Wizard rummage around in his head. Yeah, I can see that being effective.
Which, certainly sounds like it was implying, "it was easier for Kylo Ren to rummage around in Poe's head with space-magic because he tortured Poe first"

I followed up by saying that writing what (I thought) you were describing was endorsing torture by choosing to make space-magic work that way

If you want to go, "he gave up on torture because it wasn't working and decided to try space-magic instead," then that's fine, but it sure sounded like you were saying, "the villain torturing the hero made it easier for the villain to get information out of the hero via space magic."

Was my interpretation of your statement incorrect?
 
Most of my argument after the beginning was based on you saying this:

Which, certainly sounds like it was implying, "it was easier for Kylo Ren to rummage around in Poe's head with space-magic because he tortured Poe first"

I followed up by saying that writing what (I thought) you were describing was endorsing torture by choosing to make space-magic work that way

If you want to go, "he gave up on torture because it wasn't working and decided to try space-magic instead," then that's fine, but it sure sounded like you were saying, "the villain torturing the hero made it easier for the villain to get information out of the hero via space magic."

Was my interpretation of your statement incorrect?
Well, going off my memory, Poe was already worn down when Kylo decided to get the old mind non-consensual on. Pain saps your reserves, that's kind of a thing. It's why coming through it without spilling the beans is often treated as an act of colossal will (see: Casino Royal, Altered Carbon, The Matrix, Skyfall and I'd actually include Leia in that bracket).

However, the framing clearly depicts it as an abominable thing to do in all instances.
 
Well, going off my memory, Poe was already worn down when Kylo decided to get the old mind non-consensual on. Pain saps your reserves, that's kind of a thing. It's why coming through it without spilling the beans is often treated as an act of colossal will (see: Casino Royal, Altered Carbon, The Matrix, Skyfall and I'd actually include Leia in that bracket).

However, the framing clearly depicts it as an abominable thing to do in all instances.
So, yes, I was correct, and we return to my point:

There is no good reason why your fictional space-magic must be more effective at mind-probing people who have been tortured, and choosing to have it be more effective at mind-probing people who have been tortured is accepting, endorsing, and extending the pro-torture meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.
 
Arthur's post was clearly framed as a counter-argument, implying that they do believe that what the Rebellion was doing in A New Hope was bad.

Once you strip out Arthur's weaseling and equivocation between Nazis and Antifa via vague wording, the question they present is basically, "Does Star Wars endorse violently destroying the military institutions of evil governments that engage in genocide and torture while removing democratic processes that might rein them in?" to which the answer is obviously, "YES, and it is right to do so."

I was clearly joking, it's not my fault you're just as bad at reading comprehension as you are film.

I was blowing out your point to an absurd degree to demonstrate the unseriousness of your argument, you're the one trying to spin it around and say "Actually you were arguing that use of violence to resist evil is never okay!" Please, for the sake of the thread, stop tilting at windmills.
 
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