Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[IlumMoss]

Maybe, but then I feel like they just kinda run along together for much of the film. It might not be a million miles from Han coming back for Luke, but the execution isn't quite there. It adds up to a feeling that Finn's psychology isn't fully developed - we see him swerve from scene to scene, depending on what affectation Abrams is after at the time.

I'd say that Kylo's teased as a possible hero, but then his pivot to be the big bad means that we have an antagonist with a much deeper conflict with the protagonist - protagonists even, with Finn and Poe having grudges. The other thing is that it's all tied to Luke's story, which is one of my favourite things in the entire trilogy.

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Hmm, then I think we have quite a different view of that. For me Rey and Finn's bonding is the emotional core of TFA, and probably the relationship (platonic or not) I was most invested in in the ST. I really liked the chemistry between their characters. Unfortunately we don't get much with them together after TFA, but that hug at the end of TLJ was really good.

I don't think Luke's story line will never be my favourite (overall the way they remove all happy endings from the OT trio will never be my favourite), but I'm glad to hear you like it. I know some people really see value in it in how anyone can fall into depression, and the struggle to claw your way out of it.

 

[Badwolfwho]

Personally I agree wholeheartedly with John Boyega, and like he says he's not exposing anything, people talked about this years ago when the movie first came out. Hope speaking up about it doesn't hurt his career.

 

[bluntblade]

Hmm, then I think we have quite a different view of that. For me Rey and Finn's bonding is the emotional core of TFA, and probably the relationship (platonic or not) I was most invested in in the ST. I really liked the chemistry between their characters. Unfortunately we don't get much with them together after TFA, but that hug at the end of TLJ was really good.

I don't think Luke's story line will never be my favourite (overall the way they remove all happy endings from the OT trio will never be my favourite), but I'm glad to hear you like it. I know some people really see value in it in how anyone can fall into depression, and the struggle to claw your way out of it.

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I'm with you in that I love Finn and Rey's dynamic - it's more that beneath the really likeable surface, there are a lot of issues with some of the core storytelling choices that are pretty much constant with Abrams. Believe me, I was made a Star Wars fan by those two characters and one of the things in TRoS that most bummed me out was that it put them together again and did next-to-nothing with them.

I was even thinking in terms of the action scenes and I think Rey, Finn and Poe... shoot Stormtroopers together? Once?

 

[Vympel]

I'd say in Kylo's case it was more that he was being teed up to be the villain by Johnson - in his interactions with Rey, his selfishness and willingness to exploit others comes through in spades, and so it makes perfect sense when he takes the throne. Which is something Trevorrow ran with, and seems to be yet another thing Johnson and Abrams disagree on.

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I think a lot of people have heard about Trevorrow's script second-hand - Trevorrow's script has Ben redeemed before he dies as well - its just way worse than Abrams/Terrio's script. It very last minue and quite unsatisfying.

I'm always personally surprised at the belief that Johnson was setting up Kylo to be the villain of the trilogy with what he was doing in TLJ - to me it was always obvious from TFA that Ben would come back before the end (his being killed off and robbed of the opportunity to meaningfully atone was depressingly predictable and yet still incredibly frustrating given the other choices made). Nothing in TLJ changed that for me at all - it just reinforced it. A lot of people placed outsize importance on Kylo 'rejecting' an 'offer' of redemption in TLJ, but that's totally irrelevant. It's the second act of a three act story*. Luke telling Leia "no one's ever really gone" is the actual message Rian is sending - and that's reinforced where we see Ben inside the Resistance base - he's still the conflicted quite depressed villain, even at the end.

TROS following through on that is one of the few things it actually did pick up, correctly, from TLJ, IMO.

*It'd be kind of like arguing Zuko is irredeemable because of his betrayal of Katara at Ba Sing Se.

But yeah, the teasing and use of Finn as a decoy protagonist/Jedi is something which riles me a lot. As far as character arcs go, the way Finn is treated in TFA suggests that Abrams had no idea beyond mere affectation. He wanted the texture of a rebel Stormtrooper, but couldn't think of anything to use him for.

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Yeah I've said it before, but TFA loses interest in anything to do with Finn's background pretty much immediately. None of his background really makes sense for how his character behaves, and it never informs his motivations. Sadly, TLJ continued this - but with some justification, given how Finn is not at all interested in fighting for the Resistance at any point in TFA, even by the end, and the story arc TLJ chose for him was about getting him to that place.

Trevorrow, though, bizarrely, picked up on this point in a real way. TROS completely shit the bed.

The deceptive marketing campaign was just egregious. This is the second time Abrams has been involved with this (Khan with Into Darkness, anyone) and it should never have been allowed to happen.

Choosing to make Kylo co-protagonist rather than villain also leads to a bit of what I see as TLJ's character bloat, not helped by the multiple separate storylines. It's a bit like they are trying to give him a prequel story, while still having him be Vader, but not really having the time or balance to pull it off.

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Kylo Ren has slightly less screentime in TLJ than he did in TFA, though. It's really got nothing to do with making Kylo co-protagonist in the sense that TLJ did it. It's like Boyega says in the interview - his character lacks nuance compared to Daisy and (especially) Adam.

The problem is Kylo Ren being one of the big characters - and always likely to overshadow Finn - is baked into the premise. He's not only the villain, he's also the Skywalker, the son and nephew of all the legacy characters. The story was always going to be predisposed to his gravitational pull more than anyone elses. It's not an either/or thing anyway - they could've done better with Finn's character without taking away anything from the others.

In so far as screen time is concerned, it certainly wasn't Kylo Ren who took Finn's time. It was ... Poe. Who was barely in TFA, and who was actually never meant to survive TFA in the first place. I mean I love Oscar Isaac but ... the movies didn't need a 'trio'.

TROS' attempt to force one in the last installment was terrible.

 

[bluntblade]

I think a lot of people have heard about Trevorrow's script second-hand - Trevorrow's script has Ben redeemed before he dies as well - its just way worse than Abrams/Terrio's script. It very last minue and quite unsatisfying.

I'm always personally surprised at the belief that Johnson was setting up Kylo to be the villain of the trilogy with what he was doing in TLJ - to me it was always obvious from TFA that Ben would come back before the end (his being killed off and robbed of the opportunity to meaningfully atone was depressingly predictable and yet still incredibly frustrating given the other choices made). Nothing in TLJ changed that for me at all - it just reinforced it. A lot of people placed outsize importance on Kylo 'rejecting' an 'offer' of redemption in TLJ, but that's totally irrelevant. It's the second act of a three act story*. Luke telling Leia "no one's ever really gone" is the actual message Rian is sending - and that's reinforced where we see Ben inside the Resistance base - he's still the conflicted quite depressed villain, even at the end.

TROS following through on that is one of the few things it actually did pick up, correctly, from TLJ, IMO.

*It'd be kind of like arguing Zuko is irredeemable because of his betrayal of Katara at Ba Sing Se.



Yeah I've said it before, but TFA loses interest in anything to do with Finn's background pretty much immediately. None of his background really makes sense for how his character behaves, and it never informs his motivations. Sadly, TLJ continued this - but with some justification, given how Finn is not at all interested in fighting for the Resistance at any point in TFA, even by the end, and the story arc TLJ chose for him was about getting him to that place.

Trevorrow, though, bizarrely, picked up on this point in a real way. TROS completely shit the bed.

The deceptive marketing campaign was just egregious. This is the second time Abrams has been involved with this (Khan with Into Darkness, anyone) and it should never have been allowed to happen.



Kylo Ren has slightly less screentime in TLJ than he did in TFA, though. It's really got nothing to do with making Kylo co-protagonist in the sense that TLJ did it. It's like Boyega says in the interview - his character lacks nuance compared to Daisy and (especially) Adam.

The problem is Kylo Ren being one of the big characters - and always likely to overshadow Finn - is baked into the premise. He's not only the villain, he's also the Skywalker, the son and nephew of all the legacy characters. The story was always going to be predisposed to his gravitational pull more than anyone elses. It's not an either/or thing anyway - they could've done better with Finn's character without taking away anything from the others.

In so far as screen time is concerned, it certainly wasn't Kylo Ren who took Finn's time. It was ... Poe. Who was barely in TFA, and who was actually never meant to survive TFA in the first place. I mean I love Oscar Isaac but ... the movies didn't need a 'trio'.

TROS' attempt to force one in the last installment was terrible.

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For me, it's a matter of Kylo's behaviour vs Zuko's and how it manifests from his own ambitions and worse impulses, as opposed to external pressure. I think a redemption arc was possible but you'd have to commit to it hard, and my preference is just to have Kylo go down as the bad guy. It's the distinction between following the orders, and being the guy who all those orders come from.

 

[Vympel]

For me, it's a matter of Kylo's behaviour vs Zuko's and how it manifests from his own ambitions and worse impulses, as opposed to external pressure. I think a redemption arc was possible but you'd have to commit to it hard, and my preference is just to have Kylo go down as the bad guy. It's the distinction between following the orders, and being the guy who all those orders come from.

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I think that would have been fine too but for the problem of who Kylo actually is. I mean, TROS is already a depressing mess that completely denies the ST any creative reason to actually exist, but it would've been considerably more depressing if the big finale and the culmination of the story was "Han and Leia's love produced an evil piece of shit and despite their desperate desire to save him, they couldn't. So their life post OT was miserable and produced absolutely nothing of value. Instead, he was metaphorically replaced by a superior, pure surrogate child [Rey] and rightly disposed of."

If they just wanted to do a straight villain story then making him Han and Leia's son is a disastrous backstory decision for anyone actually invested in those characters, and you compound that when you focus on what they're stated to want (their son back) within the first film's own narrative.

EDIT: and another thing - Kylo is not driven solely by his own ambitions and worst impulses. Leia says this in TFA, Luke says it again in TLJ, and his plainly abusive relationship with Snoke in TLJ demonstrates that, and TROS doubles down on this by telling us he's been manipulated telepathically his whole life by voices in his head. Kylo was coded as someone who has been manipulated from the start.

But back to Finn! It's been widely noted Boyega gives JJ a huge, obviously undeserved pass for how his character was treated in both TFA and TROS and frankly I think it's down to nothing more than the fact that JJ cast him. I certainly can't think of any other reason why he'd explicitly go to bat for him like he does. In the interview it reads like he's nebulously blaming 'Disney' rather than JJ/Terrio for the decisions made in TROS, and - well - who wrote and directed the movie again?

That's particularly the case when he refers to Kelly Marie Tran being egregiously deleted from TROS' narrative altogether. It's the most craven and obvious capitulation to shitty, racist fans imaginable. But JJ didn't do anything wrong? How does that make sense?

 

[Rat King]

It is possible that those decisions re: TROS came from the execs and not JJ. But none of us were in any of those meetings, so it's hard to say.

 

[Vympel]

It is possible that those decisions re: TROS came from the execs and not JJ. But none of us were in any of those meetings, so it's hard to say.

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I'd be more receptive to that if Abrams hadn't brazenly said at SWCC when asked about KMT about how thankful he was to Johnson that he had cast her and been very effusive in his praise. At the time he said it the decision to completely marginalise her character and delete any romantic connection between her and Finn had already been made and put in the can. The dishonesty really pissed me off.

 

[bluntblade]

I'd be more receptive to that if Abrams hadn't brazenly said at SWCC when asked about KMT about how thankful he was to Johnson that he had cast her and been very effusive in his praise. At the time he said it the decision to completely marginalise her character and delete any romantic connection between her and Finn had already been made and put in the can. The dishonesty really pissed me off.

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It is remarkable just how incoherent TRoS is that it's impossible to say what anyone's intent was. But ultimately that's on Abrams for his inability or unwillingness to convey any concrete meaning through a scene.

The other thing, though, is that we know Abrams rewrote and reshot both his films up to the 11th hour and sees no problem with it. That all suggest some a certain lack of vision, backed up by the similar deficits in his Star Trek films and Super 8.

It is possible that those decisions re: TROS came from the execs and not JJ. But none of us were in any of those meetings, so it's hard to say.

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We have Trevorrow's statement that Abrams originated the Palpatine return, and I don't see why he'd fib. I will grant that Abrams gave Finn moments where he just "wins", right down to Rose backing off so he can do a heroic sacrifice and what do you know, he gets away without a scratch! So I can see why Boyega might prefer that - and I know some reviewers took it as "he finally gets to do something meaningful."

But personally, it strikes me as emblematic of the "Marvel" problems which plague the film. There's a fine line between empowering and shallowly indulgent, and any deeper meaning is muddied by the fact that he's killing his own kind.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

I dunno, not to be too charitable but I kind've do buy the idea that Terrio and Abrams stuck Rose in the "mission control" role to play off of Zombie CGI Leia...it's just that once they bringing Zombie CGI Leia to life they realized "Oh fuck this was a terrible decision".

It's still inexcusable they took a major character and made them Mr. Exposition playing off a CGI corpse, and especially inexcusable that they practically hung a lampshade on how Rose isn't allowed in the movie this time.

 

[bluntblade]

I dunno, not to be too charitable but I kind've do buy the idea that Terrio and Abrams stuck Rose in the "mission control" role to play off of Zombie CGI Leia...it's just that once they bringing Zombie CGI Leia to life they realized "Oh fuck this was a terrible decision".

It's still inexcusable they took a major character and made them Mr. Exposition playing off a CGI corpse, and especially inexcusable that they practically hung a lampshade on how Rose isn't allowed in the movie this time.

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They also reduced both her and Kaydel's lines by giving half each to Dominic Monaghan. It's so tactless that the line about the New Destroyers' guns, the thing that Rose was studying, goes to Monaghan!

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Dunking on certain parts of Disney canon for a moment: whose dumbass idea was it to abandon the OT's tradition of portraying torture and threats as generally ineffective and counterproductive, at least against characters who are committed to their cause, and characters who give in to them portrayed as making a mistake or just plain craven rather than doing what anyone would have done?

Leia resisting torture and threats against her family in A New Hope when Anakin folds like Origami against threats to part of his family in Revenge of the Sith shouldn't be her being uniquely resilient, it should be Anakin having feet of clay.

 

[bluntblade]

Err, what? I honestly don't follow.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Err, what? I honestly don't follow.

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First, some context, because some of this is secondhand. I was in a discussion elsewhere in which I asked whether "torture works" became a Lucas Star Wars thing at some point, or whether it was Disney, or just an obnoxious Fandom trope.

Someone told me (and a quick Wookiepedia check supported the claim) that Jedi: Fallen Order had one of the Jedi characters give up the location of their Padawan to the Inquisition under torture, and someone else reminded me of the bit with Poe and Kylo Ren in TFA (which can be contrasted to the scene with Cad Bane successfully resisting being Force-whatevered by Mace, Obi-Wan, and Anakin in TCW, and to Leia's unseen interrogation in A New Hope)

I haven't actually played JFO, though.

 

[bluntblade]

As I understand it, the Fallen Order thing is a key part of a character's backstory - they were failed by their master.

As for Poe... a man who'd already been tortured had a Wizard rummage around in his head. Yeah, I can see that being effective.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

As I understand it, the Fallen Order thing is a key part of a character's backstory - they were failed by their master.

As for Poe... a man who'd already been tortured had a Wizard rummage around in his head. Yeah, I can see that being effective.

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Regarding the second one: that's the (bad) meme, but torture makes its victims more hostile to their torturers.

There's no particular reason your space-magic has to endorse torture the way you're describing, and choosing to write it as doing so says something about you as an author.

 

[bluntblade]

Regarding the second one: that's the (bad) meme, but torture makes its victims more hostile to their torturers.

There's no particular reason your space-magic has to endorse torture the way you're describing, and choosing to write it as doing so says something about you as an author.

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(Shrugs) it's magic, if Vader can sense an unguarded thought then I don't see why it can't be portrayed as a break-in on someone's mind.

Re Leia, I always read it as a sign of her strength. The torture effect you're describing... torture is gross before you paint me as a Guantanamo cheerleader, but there's a difference between a hardened soldier and someone raised and trained as a peacekeeper. Particularly if that character is specified to have failed by giving someone up, regardless of sympathetic framing.

More broadly, have you played the game or just read the wookiepedia article? Because the basic summary of events can read very differently to what's onscreen.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

(Shrugs) it's magic, if Vader can sense an unguarded thought then I don't see why it can't be portrayed as a break-in on someone's mind.

Re Leia, I always read it as a sign of her strength. The torture effect you're describing... torture is gross before you paint me as a Guantanamo cheerleader, but there's a difference between a hardened soldier and someone raised and trained as a peacekeeper. Particularly if that character is specified to have failed by giving someone up, regardless of sympathetic framing.

More broadly, have you played the game or just read the wookiepedia article? Because the basic summary of events can read very differently to what's onscreen.

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Right now I'm not talking about the game.

You seem to be missing the point though: it's magic, it could go either way, and they chose the one that endorses torture.

Rather than showing him being harder to mind-read for the information because he's fixating on the torture, or him being harder to mind-read for the information because torture causes memory problems, you say they chose to have torture make it easier to mind-read the information from him.

 

[Vympel]

I dunno, not to be too charitable but I kind've do buy the idea that Terrio and Abrams stuck Rose in the "mission control" role to play off of Zombie CGI Leia...it's just that once they bringing Zombie CGI Leia to life they realized "Oh fuck this was a terrible decision".

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I'd be more prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt if their obvious relegation of Rose to the sidelines wasn't accompanied by them introducing entirely unnecessary new characters who Rose could've easily substituted for.

Remember Klaud, the giant dick/slug alien? He's on the Falcon at the start of the film and he's clearly there to maintain the ship. Rose is a goddamn mechanic, she could've easily taken that role. It would've shown she goes on adventures with Finn and Poe!

And who can forget Merry from LOTR who kept walking by the camera spouting off lines? I mean honestly, KMT is a saint for not mouthing off about how she got to hang around the periphery to 'study' while everyone else got to have adventures, meanwhile JJ is making sure to cast his friends from Lost like an asshole while doing it.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

First, some context, because some of this is secondhand. I was in a discussion elsewhere in which I asked whether "torture works" became a Lucas Star Wars thing at some point, or whether it was Disney, or just an obnoxious Fandom trope.

Someone told me (and a quick Wookiepedia check supported the claim) that Jedi: Fallen Order had one of the Jedi characters give up the location of their Padawan to the Inquisition under torture, and someone else reminded me of the bit with Poe and Kylo Ren in TFA (which can be contrasted to the scene with Cad Bane successfully resisting being Force-whatevered by Mace, Obi-Wan, and Anakin in TCW, and to Leia's unseen interrogation in A New Hope)

I haven't actually played JFO, though.

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"Someone told me that this game, which I have not played, endorses torture as a form of coercion because in the narrative a character is tortured and in a moment of weakness gives in. Shame on Disney!"

Shut it down folks, we're done for the day.

 

[bluntblade]

I'd be more prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt if their obvious relegation of Rose to the sidelines wasn't accompanied by them introducing entirely unnecessary new characters who Rose could've easily substituted for.

Remember Klaud, the giant dick/slug alien? He's on the Falcon at the start of the film and he's clearly there to maintain the ship. Rose is a goddamn mechanic, she could've easily taken that role. It would've shown she goes on adventures with Finn and Poe!

And who can forget Merry from LOTR who kept walking by the camera spouting off lines? I mean honestly, KMT is a saint for not mouthing off about how she got to hang around the periphery to 'study' while everyone else got to have adventures, meanwhile JJ is making sure to cast his friends from Lost like an asshole while doing it.

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I mean, one thing that keeps occurring to me is that Tran and Ridley don't have anywhere to mouth off. What with being driven off social media and all.

Right now I'm not talking about the game.

You seem to be missing the point though: it's magic, it could go either way, and they chose the one that endorses torture.

Rather than showing him being harder to mind-read for the information because he's fixating on the torture, or him being harder to mind-read for the information because torture causes memory problems, you say they chose to have torture make it easier to mind-read the information from him.

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All of this would be to assume that Abrams is going for anything except the momentary affectation of "scary man use magic powers", which he is not.

 

[Vympel]

I mean, one thing that keeps occurring to me is that Tran and Ridley don't have anywhere to mouth off. What with being driven off social media and all.

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Well yes, but its not like they haven't been interviewed. KMT actually did a lot of press for Episode IX and I can't believe she indulged them given how poorly they treated her.

 

[bluntblade]

Well yes, but its not like they haven't been interviewed. KMT actually did a lot of press for Episode IX and I can't believe she indulged them given how poorly they treated her.

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Maybe she hadn't seen any of the edits at this point. Remember, Adam Driver was still having to record ADD in his closet in October when he was already on the press circuit. Added to that, who was going to bat for Tran at that point? No one.

Incidentally I have a thought about the "empathy for a fascist" complaint: wouldn't it be bizarre if the first film introduced the son of two old heroes who is a villain, whose origin is mysterious, and the subsequent movies treated him just like any old villain and didn't try to get into why this happened? Actually Abrams probably would've done this; he's talked about how he was shocked that Johnson wanted to give Luke a dramatic arc.

And oh joy, now the narrative is setting in that Johnson's treatment of Poe was racist. As opposed to an effort to give any recognisable flaws to a character whose first appease amounted solely to "he's kind and brave and he flies real good!"

 

[Badwolfwho]

I mean yeah Poe's arc was about how he was an idiot who needed to sit down, shut up and listen to the white women who gave him nothing to go on, this isn't a new complaint this has been around since the movie came out.

 

[bluntblade]

I mean yeah Poe's arc was about how he was an idiot who needed to sit down, shut up and listen to the white women who gave him nothing to go on, this isn't a new complaint this has been around since the movie came out.

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Or alternatively it's about how his bravery tipped into recklessness and he had to learn that you can't always win by fighting directly against overwhelming odds. Leia and Holdo's race isn't the important factor, their rank is and in any case the Resistance are worried about being spied on.

And in any case, Poe doesn't communicate with Holdo. He doesn't share what Rose and Finn have figured out about the tracking. Because he's wedded to the romantic notion of being a freewheeling ace which is at odds with the needs of command, but also because he just won a major battle in that way (two, not yet fully recognising how Pyrrhic the last one was).

And it's not like he's suddenly being unkind to Finn or Rose, or the likes of Kaydel or C'ai. Johnson took a two-dimensional character who was very likeable and rounded him out. And you know what, I liked him until Abrams had him being reckless again and berating Rey and Finn.