RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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Spell out your alleged argument, please? Because if there's more to it, I'm not seeing it.
Star Wars General Discussion Thread
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Well, as someone who did a history degree and spent a fair amount of it on Stalinist Russia... people haven't been doing it entirely for shiggles all this time. But stating that in some instances it has been observed to be effective (whilst noting the in other instances it simply gets the result that the interrogator wants or what the victim thinks their questioner wants) is not inherently a pro-torture thing. The moral dimension is entirely separate from that equation for me because torture is so repugnant.
So I don't think there's a moral imperative to not tell stories like the one you've referenced.
Arthur Frayn
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I did:
You're equating presentation with endorsement, then extrapolating that to assume that because one can read a film a certain way than that interpretation is inherently valid. You can read almost anything any number of ways, and yeah something something something death of the author, but that doesn't mean all takes are created equally. "Lol when you think about it...", is fun between bong rips, but that doesn't mean we need to take it seriously.
It's especially not helpful that you took my incredibly obvious joke and spent like half a page insinuating that I was a fucking Trump supporter or some shit.
Your argument, way the fuck back, was that Disney endorses torture because a video game they did not produce, which you admit you have not played includes a scene where a character admits that, after being tortured, they revealed the location of several padawans. Again, if you bothered to play the game at all, you would know that this moment is treated pretty seriously and used to upend the way the player was meant to view the character. Specifically, the character in question had been positioned as mentor figure to the PC, and is the one tasking them with helping to rebuild the Jedi order. The in question previously lied about their experience and covered it up, so this is one of the first indications that, uh, maybe Our Heroes aren't the best people to entrust with re-starting the Jedi.
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To insert some facts into the debate:
The scientific consensus is that torture is an inefficient mode of interrogation. Beyond the classical "lying to stop the pain" we have:
1) Torture makes it harder for victims to actually remember things correctly and in detail.
2) How much pain people can stand and how common defense mechanisms like dissociation are, are very underestimated.
3) It's actually harder to tell if someone that's being tortured is lying.
4) There are a lot of other reasons to torture people beyond the false belief of efficiency, like revenge (wanting to punish enemy combatants/suspects).
Both 1,2 and 3 would be a hindrance even to space wizards trying to pluck out information. 4 is a good explanation for why the Empire still uses it, even when it's not as effective as other methods. Part of the point I believe that RadiantPhoenix is trying to make is that if you (as a creator) claim that your space magic detects lies even during torture or can pluck things from a dissociated mind etc, you're deliberately choosing to write pro-torture space-magic. And that they believe this was not the case in the OT and PT, that torture was there depicted as something usually "ineffective and counterproductive". They're critiquing a creator choice that spreads the misconception that torture is an effective way of interrogation.
Article: Proponents of "enhanced interrogation techniques" in the United States have claimed that such methods are necessary for obtaining information from uncooperative terrorism subjects. In the present article, we offer an informed, academic perspective on such claims. Psychological theory and research shows that harsh interrogation methods are ineffective. First, they are likely to increase resistance by the subject rather than facilitate cooperation. Second, the threatening and adversarial nature of harsh interrogation is often inimical to the goal of facilitating the retrieval of information from memory and therefore reduces the likelihood that a subject will provide reports that are extensive, detailed, and accurate. Third, harsh interrogation methods make lie detection difficult. Analyzing speech content and eliciting verifiable details are the most reliable cues to assessing credibility; however, to elicit such cues subjects must be encouraged to provide extensive narratives, something that does not occur in harsh interrogations. Evidence is accumulating for the effectiveness of rapport-based information-gathering approaches as an alternative to harsh interrogations. Such approaches promote cooperation, enhance recall of relevant and reliable information, and facilitate assessments of credibility. Given the available evidence that torture is ineffective, why might some laypersons, policymakers, and interrogation personnel support the use of torture? We conclude our review by offering a psychological perspective on this important question.
Janoff-Bulman, R. (2007). Erroneous assumptions: Popular belief in the effectiveness of torture interrogation. Peace and Conflict: Journal of Peace Psychology, 13(4), 429-435. doi:10.1080/10781910701665766
The scientific consensus is that torture is an inefficient mode of interrogation. Beyond the classical "lying to stop the pain" we have:
1) Torture makes it harder for victims to actually remember things correctly and in detail.
2) How much pain people can stand and how common defense mechanisms like dissociation are, are very underestimated.
3) It's actually harder to tell if someone that's being tortured is lying.
4) There are a lot of other reasons to torture people beyond the false belief of efficiency, like revenge (wanting to punish enemy combatants/suspects).
Both 1,2 and 3 would be a hindrance even to space wizards trying to pluck out information. 4 is a good explanation for why the Empire still uses it, even when it's not as effective as other methods. Part of the point I believe that RadiantPhoenix is trying to make is that if you (as a creator) claim that your space magic detects lies even during torture or can pluck things from a dissociated mind etc, you're deliberately choosing to write pro-torture space-magic. And that they believe this was not the case in the OT and PT, that torture was there depicted as something usually "ineffective and counterproductive". They're critiquing a creator choice that spreads the misconception that torture is an effective way of interrogation.
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I'd say there's a distinction to be made with a Darksider reaching into someone's mind. Which is that, going off other magic systems I've seen, it's frequently portrayed as immensely difficult for anyone without access to the same kind of powers to defend against that sort of attack.
It's a common trope yes. But one that did not hold true in the OT, where Vader fails to elicit information using torture despite being one of the most powerful darksiders of all time.
I think the point that all those systems are also choosing (intentionally or not) to portray torture as effective within their magic system still stands though.
I think the point that all those systems are also choosing (intentionally or not) to portray torture as effective within their magic system still stands though.
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But we never saw Vader trying that method, did we? We just saw him go for the machines. It might not have been in his wheelhouse - could be Snoke devised/rediscovered the method and passed that on to Kylo. And equally it might just be that it was made up at a later date and I'll happy buy what I just typed as an in-universe explanation.
Incidentally, one thing that really makes me shudder when I rewatch TLJ and it gets to the bit where Snoke tortures Rey, there's a really visceral, wheezing groan she makes upon being dropped. Yeesh.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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To put that briefly:
Now, we get to the space magic. The part of fictional physics that the author created to serve their work, and which reflects on them.
When an author chooses to write their magic system as working that way, that choice reflects on them, because it is not realism, it is fantasy. The author has created this magic system, and its actions reflect on them, not on RL physics.
In general when someone writes fiction in which torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation, they are doing the work of supporting torture -- they are establishing the meme that torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation.
They are falsely presenting the choice about whether or not to torture as being between morality and effectiveness, when the true choice is between immorality and effectiveness, because torture is not an effective interrogation technique.
In other words, barring clear deconstructions, anyone who writes a work of fiction in which torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation is supporting torture by doing so, and that makes them a torture-supporter, by definition.
And we shouldn't put up with that.
-- -- --
As for whether Disney is responsible for JFO? As of 2012 or 2013 or something, they own the IP. They have the legal authority to tell Electronic Arts that they aren't allowed to publish a Star Wars game where torture works. This is what is known as the Copyright holder's moral rights.
I suppose you could say that Disney has simply decided they don't care, but the obvious answer is, "then we should raise a stink and make them care."
-- -- --
Oh, and here's the Star Wars themed kicker: Do you want to know what actually works as an interrogation technique?
Building rapport. Compassion. Empathy.
Or, in George Lucas's words: "There's a good side and a bad side. You have a choice between them, but the world works better if you're on the good side."
- Torture victims are more hostile, more resistant.
- Torture victims have unreliable memories.
- Torturers are easier to lie to.
Now, we get to the space magic. The part of fictional physics that the author created to serve their work, and which reflects on them.
That is a choice, and the author is free to make a different choice.
When an author chooses to write their magic system as working that way, that choice reflects on them, because it is not realism, it is fantasy. The author has created this magic system, and its actions reflect on them, not on RL physics.
In general when someone writes fiction in which torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation, they are doing the work of supporting torture -- they are establishing the meme that torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation.
They are falsely presenting the choice about whether or not to torture as being between morality and effectiveness, when the true choice is between immorality and effectiveness, because torture is not an effective interrogation technique.
In other words, barring clear deconstructions, anyone who writes a work of fiction in which torture is or is part of an effective method of interrogation is supporting torture by doing so, and that makes them a torture-supporter, by definition.
And we shouldn't put up with that.
-- -- --
As for whether Disney is responsible for JFO? As of 2012 or 2013 or something, they own the IP. They have the legal authority to tell Electronic Arts that they aren't allowed to publish a Star Wars game where torture works. This is what is known as the Copyright holder's moral rights.
I suppose you could say that Disney has simply decided they don't care, but the obvious answer is, "then we should raise a stink and make them care."
-- -- --
Oh, and here's the Star Wars themed kicker: Do you want to know what actually works as an interrogation technique?
Building rapport. Compassion. Empathy.
Or, in George Lucas's words: "There's a good side and a bad side. You have a choice between them, but the world works better if you're on the good side."
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Depends on the victim. I've seen enough injuries from sports accidents which reduce people to a blubbering mess and I've delved into historical sources where the nasty stuff did yield an authentic confession. Which doesn't stop it being abominable.
Yes, and we've got the baddies doing the torturing. It's always unambiguously bad. Because for me, it's ethically wrong in a way that's divorced from any and all practical considerations - that it is indeed woefully inefficient (which is not to say totally ineffective, particularly depending on the goal of the person using it) is quite beside the point because for me, you shouldn't be doing it. Which is why it's what the villains do and not the heroes.
Added to that, within the context of the game's story, the character talking about how she had built a rapport with her captors and then given up the Padawans would change the nature of the reveal and the conflict drastically. The point is that our sympathies are tugged in two competing directions.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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So don't use a rapport. Use trickery.
We know Vader's capable of it, because he does it in A New Hope.
Try this:
- Jedi Knight is captured
- Jedi Knight is interrogated, but reveals nothing
- Vader is introduced
- Vader pretends to do some interrogation with a medical-ish interrogator droid
- Still gets nothing, but that wasn't the point
- Jedi Knight manages to escape
- Jedi Knight goes to Padawan
- Vader shows up, because he was tracking the Knight
- Jedi prepare to fight
- Vader sets off a bomb inside Knight's body, leaving her unable to fight
- With Knight dead or crippled, Padawan is easily captured
Really drive home how much Vader has become everything Anakin swore to destroy.
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But that's not what the story is about in the game. In the game, it's about how the master, under dreadful, dreadful circumstances, betrayed the person she was sworn to care for and protect, and more Padawans besides her. It's about how a villain was created by an act of betrayal by her teacher, but in circumstances where we still feel for the teacher.
The series of events that you just outlined don't mesh with those themes in the slightest.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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Then maybe give her an actual motive to do so beyond the author's willingness to tells stories that support torture.
EDIT: Maybe a hostage, to repeat a common Star Wars theme about the dangers of attachment.
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The motive is the desire to not be in utterly excruciating pain. It's framed as, to some degree, weakness on the part of the character, in order to achieve the dramatic aims of the conflict and thus the story.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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But it is still unnecessary support for torture on the part of the writers.
A hostage changes the equation, and makes it more fitting with the rest of Star Wars, because attachment, while doing less to (out of universe) support torture.
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But it's the opposite thing being pushed. That a character wanted an escape for themselves, and traded the lives of others for that escape. Yes, the writers made a choice but I don't think it's morally invalid. Because if we're pushing the argument that torture has never ever ever worked, then we are lying to ourselves.
Again, it's gross, and it's grossly inefficient, but there are documented instances from all over history of times when it has been used successfully. Heck, it's something that makes an antagonist terrifying. When Le Chiffre starts pulverising James Bond's goolies, we're frightened that Bond might crack.
RadiantPhoenix
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The character doing bad things because of attachment advances the argument that she isn't the best choice to rebuild the Jedi order, because Jedi are not supposed to allow attachment to rule them
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Mate, attachment isn't the root of all evil all the time, you know? Unless in this case you count it as that character's attachment to still having all her teeth and toenails, as it were.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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The point is that by making the story about attachment rather than personal pain, it advances what you claim to be the point AND avoids being a pro-torture story.
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Look, I'm gonna park this because neither of us are going to budge on our positions. For my part, I think that if we portray all torture as never working ever, then we're kind of lying to ourselves and it rather makes the baddies look like a bunch of dunces because then they're doing something which is utterly ineffective.
I'm also amused by the notion that Rian Johnson, a man who gets the giggles over Chris Evans eating Belgian biscuits, is pro-torture because he wrote Snoke ripping into Rey's grey matter and it turns out to work.
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I mean, I think that Star Wars endorsing that there are times when it makes sense to destroy dictatorial military bases through terrorism is pretty based, honestly. 
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Does it count as terrorism when it's targeting a hyperweapon which has already been used?I mean, I think that Star Wars endorsing that there are times when it makes sense to destroy dictatorial military bases through terrorism is pretty based, honestly.
RadiantPhoenix
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Humans and human-like intelligences are not emotionless logic-machines.
Hate is a motivation, and as I said, torture is very effective at hurting someone. If hurting your enemies is your primary goal, then torture is an entirely logical method to achieve that goal.
When torture is the preferred method of interrogation, it conveys a simple message: gathering information is not the torturer's number one priority.
Madam Carstein
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I would argue this is somewhat less a condemnation of Cere's personal failings so much as suggesting the obvious risks of her plan to rebuild the Jedi. The Force-sensitive children whose names are on the Holocron are, at present, safely anonymous with the Empire none the wiser as to who they are. And we've seen from other media like Rebels and Clone Wars that Palpatine devoted considerable attention to abducting Force-sensitive children so that they could brainwash them into loyal Dark Jedi.
If Cal, Cere, and co. safely obtained the Holocron, they would then be free to find the children and recruit them as new Jedi. However, doing so would paint a huge target on their backs, and as both Cere and Cal's experiences show: one is never truly safe from the Empire as a fugitive Jedi. A point that also gets raised by Nightsister Merrin is that they're not really asking the children if they want to become Jedi. They're basically making the decision for them: despite the fact that this would be a life-altering event that would put all of them in considerable danger.
All in all, finding out about Cere's and Cal's past I think is meant to illustrate the perils of life as a fugitive Jedi, with the story of Trilla being an illustration of how the victims of the Empire's violence can also become its perpetrators.
In consideration of this: destroying the Holocron represents a conscious choice by Cal and Cere. They sacrifice their desire to restore the Jedi in order to save the lives of those who might fall victim to the Empire. Selfless sacrifice of one's own desired goals for the greater good is, itself, a very strong Jedi trait, so we could even argue that in doing so, Cal becomes a full Jedi and Cere finds her way back to the Order.
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Or it's that the stakes are high as hell, and the villains are bastards who will do anything for information. Because the framing us "tell us everything you know."
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RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
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But that's the thing: the author is under no obligation to write their space magic as transforming torture from counterproductive like RL into an effective torture technique.
And choosing to do so is an act of support for real life torturers, because it builds up the meme that torture is an effective interrogation technique.
By convincing audiences that torture is an effective torture technique, authors who contribute to that misconception are advocating for torture.
Because, barring space magic, the choice is this:
- torture
XOR - Do whatever it takes to get the information
You, advocates of torture, and, according to you, the authors of JFO, are falsely presenting the choice as this:
- DON'T torture
XOR - Do whatever it takes to get the information