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Star Wars General Discussion Thread

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RadiantPhoenix said:
The first bit has some elements of truth to it, but the conclusion that allowing it would have tempered his worst character traits is ludicrous when many of Anakin's worst character traits are found in his relationship with Padme
  • Jedi are forbidden to marry, but they are also encouraged to love.
  • Jedi aren't allowed to have possessive relationships, and Anakin flipping out over Padme saying she's going to leave him demonstrates extreme possessiveness
  • Jedi aren't allowed to let their attachments (inability to let go) rule them, and Anakin's attachment to Padme drives him fucking nuts.
As for stifling and bottling up feelings, no. That's patent nonsense, the opposite of any reasonable version of the truth.

The PT repeated shows Jedi telling each other to be mindful of their feelings -- to think about them, not to bottle them up and ignore them.
Article:
Mace Windu: to Anakin Skywalker "Be mindful of your feelings"

Jedi-Critical Fandom: "Is this suppressing emotion?"
Source: Is This A Pigeon?

"Jedi are encouraged to suppress their emotions" is the pigeon the butterfly isn't.
Article:
Depa Billaba: to Caleb Dume: "You must not grow too attached, too fond, too in love with life as it is now. Those emotions are valuable and should not be suppressed... but you must learn to rule them, padawan, lest they rule you"

Source: Kanan - The Last Padawan

Article:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: to Anakin "It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings -- it's natural."
Source: The Clone Wars - The Rise of Clovis
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"Jedi are encouraged to love."

This information comes from Anakin, when he is chatting up Padme. He is transparently rationalizing away the restrictions the Jedi Order has placed on him. A reliable source, he is not.

"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life. So you might say we are encouraged to love."

- Anakin Skywalker, while impressing Padme with sick telekinesis skills


The Jedi are supposed to be "loving" in an austere, monk-like, celibate manner - a sort of all-encompassing altruism that, while very admirable in some senses, crucially does not take into account their own desires and feelings (unless those desires and feelings happen to line up with the greater good). For someone as naturally passionate as Anakin, and given his past, this was a big ask.

The fact that we never see a single Coruscanti Jedi on screen in a romantic relationship (in addition to their austure, celibate cinematic language) is very telling.
 
Mechasaurian said:
"Jedi are encouraged to love."

This information comes from Anakin, when he is chatting up Padme. He is transparently rationalizing away the restrictions the Jedi Order has placed on him. A reliable source, he is not.

"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life. So you might say we are encouraged to love."

- Anakin Skywalker, while impressing Padme with sick telekinesis skills


The Jedi are supposed to be "loving" in an austere, monk-like, celibate manner - a sort of all-encompassing altruism that, while very admirable in some senses, crucially does not take into account their own desires and feelings (unless those desires and feelings happen to line up with the greater good). For someone as naturally passionate as Anakin, and given his past, this was a big ask.

The fact that we never see a single Coruscanti Jedi on screen in a romantic relationship (in addition to their austure, celibate cinematic language) is very telling.
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Anakin's statement is also repeatedly backed up by the author.

2002:
Article:
"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

2010:
Article:
"And of course that's the problem with Anakin ultimately. You're allowed to love people, but you're not allowed to possess them. And what he did is he fell in love and married her and then became jealous."

Three things are forbidden here:
  1. Attachment: the inability to let go when the time comes.
  2. Possession.
  3. Marriage, which might or might not be one of the first two.
Where are you getting this patent nonsense about Jedi being celibate?
 
As dumb as a Colin Trevorrow's script was (and especially considering how dumb Rey's plotline plays out), he did have the idea of Rey drawing strength from her connections with those around her and implicitly refute the austere, disconnected Jedi of the Prequels.

Really that's the scripts biggest problem - it's a collection of interesting ideas poorly executed.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
As dumb as a Colin Trevorrow's script was (and especially considering how dumb Rey's plotline plays out), he did have the idea of Rey drawing strength from her connections with those around her and implicitly refute the austere, disconnected Jedi of the Prequels.

Really that's the scripts biggest problem - it's a collection of interesting ideas poorly executed.
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When you say "refute", do you mean refuting the notion that the PT Jedi were like that, or do you mean calling them bad for allegedly being like that?
 
Arthur Frayn said:
As dumb as a Colin Trevorrow's script was (and especially considering how dumb Rey's plotline plays out), he did have the idea of Rey drawing strength from her connections with those around her and implicitly refute the austere, disconnected Jedi of the Prequels.
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What connections was she supposed to be drawing on? She spent two movies virtually alone, though this isn't entirely her fault. Han dies, Luke pushes her away, and Finn isn't given any presence. Come to think of it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but does Rey have no close relationships with other women until TRoS's (perforce) implied, offscreen mentor relationship with Leia (no, Maz doesn't count)?

I guess she's close with BB-8, and maybe Chewie?
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
What connections was she supposed to be drawing on? She spent two movies virtually alone, though this isn't entirely her fault. Han dies, Luke pushes her away, and Finn isn't given any presence. Come to think of it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but does Rey have no close relationships with other women until TRoS's (perforce) implied, offscreen mentor relationship with Leia (no, Maz doesn't count)?

I guess she's close with BB-8, and maybe Chewie?
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Trevorrow's script has Rey having been carrying out missions with Finn and Poe for years (a move copied by most Episode IX fics I've cared to read) and in VIII her big moment of catharsis is the big hug with Finn. Johnson leaves her making friends with Poe and others, so there's a sense that she's finding belonging after her struggles in isolation.

Admittedly this stems from Johnson wanting to pick up immediately and zero in on Rey, Luke and Kylo whilst facing her with huge difficulties, but I think that was a good decision.
 
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bluntblade said:
Trevorrow's script has Rey having been carrying out missions with Finn and Poe for years (a move copied by most Episode IX fics I've cared to read) and in VIII her big moment of catharsis is the big hug with Finn. Johnson leaves her making friends with Poe and others, so there's a sense that she's finding belonging after her struggles in isolation.

Admittedly this stems from Johnson wanting to pick up immediately and zero in on Rey, Luke and Kylo whilst facing her with huge difficulties, but I think that was a good decision.
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Following on from this, one of the things that continually bugs me about Episode IX refusing to allow that anything meaningful happened in the timeskip (except that Rey did training because that's what matters most, and I'm honestly sad that the slightly unorthodox style she experiments with and employs in TLJ is nowhere to be seen) is that it seems to deny us the prospect of future adventures set in that time.

Even assuming I'd want to watch it now, we're not going to get the adventures in which Rey bonds with Poe and Rose, the gang turns itself into a close-knit outfit who work smartly together, Jess Pava and some other fan-favourite supporting characters get episodes of their own, Hux and Kylo simmer their way through their conquests, etc.
 
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bluntblade said:
Following on from this, one of the things that continually bugs me about Episode IX refusing to allow that anything meaningful happened in the timeskip (except that Rey did training because that's what matters most, and I'm honestly sad that the slightly unorthodox style she experiments with and employs in TLJ is nowhere to be seen) is that it seems to deny us the prospect of future adventures set in that time. Even assuming I'd want to watch it now, we're not going to get the adventures in which Rey bonds with Poe and Rose, the gang turns itself into a close-knit outfit who work smartly together, Jess Pava and some other fan-favourite supporting characters get episodes of their own, Hux and Kylo simmer their way through their conquests, etc.
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Yeah, surely the point of a 1-3 year timeskip would be to a) gift themselves a period they can populate with merchandising galore, and b) use as a shortcut to character drama - "things haven't been the same since that raid on Episode 27"
 
Arthur Frayn said:
Yeah, surely the point of a 1-3 year timeskip would be to a) gift themselves a period they can populate with merchandising galore, and b) use as a shortcut to character drama - "things haven't been the same since that raid on Episode 27"
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Part of me wonders if they'd written off the whole thing after the merch drop, but then I remember that's not how these things would be sequenced. Maybe they were scared of doing anything that would be contradicted later because no one knew where Abrams and Terrio were going until the end of reshoots on IX?

Because reading Resistance Reborn, it's striking that they don't want to do anything with the dynamics between any characters except Finn and Poe (Rey and Rose do next to nothing for the duration) and it feels like the author had been given some major restrictions. Like, there's all this talk about how the First Order have become way more belligerent in the last few months and you wonder if that might have something to do with the new, volatile Supreme Leader... but not one person mentions him. We get lengthy stretches in Leia's POV and her own son never comes up once.

Honestly, I've already spilled masses of words over things that I'd have liked to see during the timeskip. Partly to explore the Resistance as they rebuild, but also to get a sense of what the Republic is, or increasingly what it was as it crumbles under First Order boots.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
Yeah, surely the point of a 1-3 year timeskip would be to a) gift themselves a period they can populate with merchandising galore
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Gimme armoured Rey and Finn in repurposed Stormtrooper kit.

One thing I find weird is people demanding that Johnson give Finn more conflict with Kylo. Because Abrams really hadn't, and for my money you can do a lot with Finn heading up the boots-on-the-ground, conventional side of the battle. Don't get me wrong, I made him Force-sensitive in my take and had him in on the final duel, but I prefer generally to have him as an emergent leader. I feel like doingnthat and pitting him against the likes of Phasma does more with the opportunities present in his character setup, while Rey gets the personal stuff with Kylo.
 
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I dunno if anyone saw the GQ article with Boyega, but... while I understand his grievances, I still think that it's unfair to Johnson when he was wrestling with the weird half-arc Abrams had given Finn and the crippling lack of clarity as to the First Order-Republic conflict.

And when unlike Abrams, he actually gave Finn some real growth.

So whoop, Discourse says my favourite Star Wars is racist now. Fuck me ragged, I'm tired.
 
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John Boyega is allowed to be unhappy that his role in a masterpiece wasn't everything he hoped and expected it to be. He absolutely doesn't have to give a shit about the limitations or constraints that Johnson was working within, it's not his fucking problem. I do think it's weird he goes to bat for Abrams when TROS does him and especially KMT dirty, but then again who the fuck knows how the two get along personally.

And if anyone's using him venting his very justified complaints about working as a black man in a white dominated industry to score points about their opinion on a children's film about space wizards is Proven Correct or some shit, they can get fucked.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
John Boyega is allowed to be unhappy that his role in a masterpiece wasn't everything he hoped and expected it to be. He absolutely doesn't have to give a shit about the limitations or constraints that Johnson was working within, it's not his fucking problem. I do think it's weird he goes to bat for Abrams when TROS does him and especially KMT dirty, but then again who the fuck knows how the two get along personally.

And if anyone's using him venting his very justified complaints about working as a black man in a white dominated industry to score points about their opinion on a children's film about space wizards is Proven Correct or some shit, they can get fucked.
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I feel like Abrams had probably said a lot of vague promises and apparently there's a cut ending of TRoS where Rey and Finn were holding hands... maybe that's where all the "Rey! Rey! Reeeeeey!" stuff was going and in another cut he just wears her down to the point that she agrees to date him? Or maybe that was just going to be how the film ends without them discussing their feelings onscreen at all.

But Abrams never truly sets anything up - I see all this stuff about TFA apparently positioning Finn as Force-sensitive and... where? Apart from the Starkiller thing, maybe.

Man, I'm fucking tired. I came home from work all hyped to get some words in on a Finn-centric fic, and now I'm just... I don't think I'm cross at Boyega, but I'm just glummed out again.

I'm curious to see if Johnson actually stirs in response to all this. I mean, Adam Driver, KMT and Oscar Isaac are the only leads who haven't ripped on his work at this stage, not to mention all the folks at Bad Robot - and this feels like something that might actually get him to say something.
 
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I mean, I hate this kind of celebrity armchair psychoanalysis, but Abrams casting him in TFA did (as the article points out) tee Boyega up to become the star he is today, Abrams comes off as a friendly and nice enough guy and he tends to get along well with his actors, and Boyega might (not incorrectly) feel that IX was going to be a shit show no matter what, so it's hard for him to fault Abrams for failing to spin straw into gold.

Personally, I maintain that Finn's arc feels unsatisfying because it's unfinished. Johnson was clearly trying to set Finn up to take on a larger role in the next film, so TROS doing absolutely nothing with it makes it look like a cul-de-sac in retrospect.

Regardless, the Star Wars connection's just one small part of his interview, and like I said anyone who's taking his very understandable frustrations to re-litigate a movie they're being fucking stupid.
 
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bluntblade said:
But Abrams never truly sets anything up - I see all this stuff about TFA apparently positioning Finn as Force-sensitive and... where? Apart from the Starkiller thing, maybe.
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It's nowhere. It's a total bullshit argument.

www.usatoday.com

John Boyega lives 'every single moment' with 'Star Wars'

British actor recalls 'Force Awakens' secrets and hints at a darker 'Episode VIII.'
www.usatoday.com

Q: What single plot point was the hardest to not spill?

A: I really wanted to tell people that Finn wasn't going to be the Jedi of Force Awakens, that you wouldn't see any signs of him being Force-sensitive. Because they had all the posters (of Finn) with the lightsaber, I didn't want people to be somewhat disappointed. But you know, Daisy looks good with a blue saber, too — she took on the helm and I was able to sneak off being unconscious!
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The actor playing the role didn't know shit about this, but these people cracked the secret code? Its insulting.
 
Vympel said:
It's nowhere. It's a total bullshit argument.

www.usatoday.com

John Boyega lives 'every single moment' with 'Star Wars'

British actor recalls 'Force Awakens' secrets and hints at a darker 'Episode VIII.'
www.usatoday.com

The actor playing the role didn't know shit about this, but these people cracked the secret code? Its insulting.
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Abrams vagueness is a gift to everyone. Heck, people thought he was setting Rey up to be evil, a Skywalker, even the reincarnation of Anakin.

Side note: I don't think Johnson believed he was sidelining Finn when he talked up Rose as a new lead and her subplot was the same. If anything, he gives them a conflict of their own to carry which had gone woefully neglected in the previous film.
 
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Vympel said:
It's nowhere. It's a total bullshit argument.
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Well, it's certainly nowhere in the script, and Boyega is definitive in that "Finn is Force-sensitive" played no role in his preparation or acting choices. Finn does get Obi-Wan's Theme/The Force Theme played over his actions a couple times, though, and if leitmotific music is to mean anything, it's that the Force is guiding his actions in those moments.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
Well, it's certainly nowhere in the script, and Boyega is definitive in that "Finn is Force-sensitive" played no role in his preparation or acting choices. Finn does get Obi-Wan's Theme/The Force Theme played over his actions a couple times, though, and if leitmotific music is to mean anything, it's that the Force is guiding his actions in those moments.
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I mean, Sideways has done a video on how TRoS used a whole heap of music in a way that ditched much of the context:


So it's quite possible that was at play in this case. And the notion advanced by TRoS that Finn's turn was occasioned by the Force rather than any inner morality just... sits poorly with me.

One thought on TLJ: I feel like the "sidelining" argument doesn't take into account what a complex beast the film is. The previous film just dropped Luke Skywalker in Johnson's lap along with all the attendant implicit questions and said "bye!" Certainly there are a lot of choices that are very much Johnson's (the First Order suddenly on the offensive after the Starkiller) but then to me those are capitalising on a number of things which TFA didn't make proper use of anyway.

But the key thing is that you've got a lot of dynamics which need space to breathe with Luke, Rey and Kylo, and dropping in a bunch more characters could easily disrupt that.
 
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I think that the marketing of Finn with the saber is part of what gives the image of him being force-sensitive. Essentially Disney did tease something that meant a lot to some people and that they then didn't come through on. And I would say this was messed up on a lot of different occasions. All the movies are somewhat disjointed from one another, because the lack of a cohesive plan is what probably fucked the sequel trilogy over the most. There was no overachieving plans on what different characters arcs should be, nor on what core themes they wanted to play with over all three movies.
To me it definitely does feel like Finn was pushed back from his TFA role as co-protagonist for Kylo to take that role.

Edit. And he has a fairly complete arc in TFA about caring for and acting for others. He starts of by only truly saving Poe because he needs a pilot to help him escape, wanting to stay out of the big fight and even splitting up with Rey over it for a short time, to going back for her. He goes to rescue her and thereby joins the big fight, learning to get involved in the bigger picture even when it's a greater risk for his personal safety. It's a modified version of Han's OT arc 🤷‍♀️
 
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IlumMoss said:
To me it definitely does feel like Finn was pushed back from his TFA role as co-protagonist for Kylo to take that role.
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I'd say in Kylo's case it was more that he was being teed up to be the villain by Johnson - in his interactions with Rey, his selfishness and willingness to exploit others comes through in spades, and so it makes perfect sense when he takes the throne. Which is something Trevorrow ran with, and seems to be yet another thing Johnson and Abrams disagree on.

But yeah, the teasing and use of Finn as a decoy protagonist/Jedi is something which riles me a lot. As far as character arcs go, the way Finn is treated in TFA suggests that Abrams had no idea beyond mere affectation. He wanted the texture of a rebel Stormtrooper, but couldn't think of anything to use him for.

Like, I don't know why you don't have Finn be changed by thinking he's lost Poe, and bond with BB-8 as a result of that. Heck, keep Poe around and have the trio together from the start - then we can find out a bit about the Resistance and get invested.
 
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bluntblade said:
I'd say in Kylo's case it was more that he was being teed up to be the villain by Johnson. Which is something Trevorrow ran with, and seems to be yet another thing Johnson and Abrams disagree on.

But yeah, the teasing and use of Finn as a decoy protagonist/Jedi is something which riles me a lot. As far as character arcs go, the way Finn is treated in TFA suggests that Abrams had no idea beyond mere affectation. He wanted the texture of a rebel Stormtrooper, but couldn't think of anything to use him for.

Like, I don't know why you don't have Finn be changed by thinking he's lost Poe, and bond with BB-8 as a result of that. Heck, keep Poe around and have the trio together from the start - then we can find out a bit about the Resistance and get invested.
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I think Finn's arc in TFA works well for me because it's so centered on his relationship with Rey, and how they sort of grow together by having their first true friend. Poe died too quickly, and him not being all that affected by it gives us more time to show where he's at "me first" and where he goes to "my friends + the greater picture". I also don't see him as fully "teased" yet in TFA, because there was still opportunity to build further on him being force-sensitive later (which TROS also does, though it feels a bit late after his entire TLJ arc was away from it).

I do agree RJ was left in a bad position with things like Luke, and to some degree the worldbuilding (mostly because of JJ's attempt to pretty much soft reboot the OT). Choosing to make Kylo co-protagonist rather than villain also leads to a bit of what I see as TLJ's character bloat, not helped by the multiple separate storylines. It's a bit like they are trying to give him a prequel story, while still having him be Vader, but not really having the time or balance to pull it off.
 
IlumMoss said:
I think Finn's arc in TFA works well for me because it's so centered on his relationship with Rey, and how they sort of grow together by having their first true friend. Poe died too quickly, and him not being all that affected by it gives us more time to show where he's at "me first" and where he goes to "my friends + the greater picture". I also don't see him as fully "teased" yet in TFA, because there was still opportunity to build further on him being force-sensitive later (which TROS also does, though it feels a bit late after his entire TLJ arc was away from it).

I do agree RJ was left in a bad position with things like Luke, and to some degree the worldbuilding (mostly because of JJ's attempt to pretty much soft reboot the OT). Choosing to make Kylo co-protagonist rather than villain also leads to a bit of what I see as TLJ's character bloat, not helped by the multiple separate storylines. It's a bit like they are trying to give him a prequel story, while still having him be Vader, but not really having the time or balance to pull it off.
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Maybe, but then I feel like they just kinda run along together for much of the film. It might not be a million miles from Han coming back for Luke, but the execution isn't quite there. It adds up to a feeling that Finn's psychology isn't fully developed - we see him swerve from scene to scene, depending on what affectation Abrams is after at the time.

I'd say that Kylo's teased as a possible hero, but then his pivot to be the big bad means that we have an antagonist with a much deeper conflict with the protagonist - protagonists even, with Finn and Poe having grudges. The other thing is that it's all tied to Luke's story, which is one of my favourite things in the entire trilogy.
 
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