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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Also stuff like "Why doesn't Luke care that his aunt and uncle died" and "well I guess Leia didn't care about Alderaan" were the setup and punchline of brain genius nerds making fun of Star Wars for ultimately being a space adventure romp for a long time. But now that we have, like, one brief comedy skit in TLJ suddenly those are proof of Star Wars being super serial.
 
Reveen said:
Why do they need to be a convincing villain? The entire point of the conflict being a bunch of political economic bullshit is that the Jedi aren't heroes who save the day. They were the Republics goon squad.
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I have become a tad annoyed at this rather "clever" hot take (let me preface that I'm not being angry at you specifically).

It's such a shallow criticism that is seen in similar bad faith criticisms of the Jedi that I have grown sick of (but not as bad as the "wow they tak kidz before tenn? Yhat's fucked up, I thought they were gud guys").

The Jedi aren't anyone's "goon squad," they have sworn to assist the Republic as an institution of free governance in the galaxy.

The Republic did not send the Jedi to the Trade Federation, the Chancellor asked them personally as a humanitarian request to end the crisis.

The Republic did not send the Jedi to Geonosis, Obi-Wan et al were captured after investigating an attempted murder attempt on a Senator and found a connection to the nascent Seperatist movement, nessecitating a response from the Republic (who just so happened to approve funding and creation of a Grand Army, which Kamino just so happened to have on hand).

tl;dr: Jedi aren't bad.
 
Rat King said:
The whinging about needing more worldbuilding is silly because in Star Wars all we know is:

-there was a Republic (yay), but the Empire took over and took away democracy (boo)
-the Rebels want the Republic back
-the Empire blows up planets because they're dicks and doing so makes them feel good
-there used to be Jedi now there aren't.

versus tfa

-The First Order is pissed their dad got beat up by the Republic's dad
-The First Order is evil dicks who like to blow up planets
-the Republic doesn't think the FO is a threat so some of the Old Guard are running a private army to fight them
-there were Jedi (again) and now there aren't (again)

I will say that I think ANH was more successful in some ways than TFA in making the personal stakes/story stakes for the heroes feel more urgent (Death Star attack just has way more tension to it as a set-piece finale), but they're both wishy washy as hell on the wider galactic/world stakes.
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I don't know if 'world building' is the right word for it. Or if the quality people think TFA failed to capture is real at all or simply nostalgia for a part of our collective childhood. It could simply be that rehashing ANH's story beats, while a good business decision, was a poor story decision. Especially when it forms the foundations for the next two films. I do recall feeling very out in the cold about a lot of TFA's scenes.

Like you say, neither story has particularly deep world building. But ANH somehow managed to capture a feeling that there were world's beyond the picture frame without distracting from the story far better than either of the extent sequel films. It may just be way spectacle can be inserted so easily these days that there's never a pause to process what you've just been shown while it's fresh in your mind.
 
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Triggerhappy said:
I don't know if 'world building' is the right word for it. Or if the quality people think TFA failed to capture is real at all or simply nostalgia for a part of our collective childhood. It could simply be that rehashing ANH's story beats, while a good business decision, was a poor story decision. Especially when it forms the foundations for the next two films. I do recall feeling very out in the cold about a lot of TFA's scenes.

Like you say, neither story has particularly deep world building. But ANH somehow managed to capture a feeling that there were world's beyond the picture frame without distracting from the story far better than either of the extent sequel films. It may just be way spectacle can be inserted so easily these days that there's never a pause to process what you've just been shown while it's fresh in your mind.
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While I think TFA is a fine film and does it's "one job" pretty well (reassuring everyone that Star Wars is "back"), I do think it was a missed opportunity not to at least offer the audience some context as to how things got the way they are. That works for ANH because it's starting in media res and part of the whole schtick was that it was meant to replicate watching some random episode of an old Flash Gordon serial (that and the movie moves so fast, and the world building is done so briefly, that you don't really notice). As much as the Prequels were bogged down in unnecessary exposition and I understand Abrams and co's aversion, it wouldn't have hurt to throw in like, one scene where Leia talks to the Republic via hologram and tries to convince them of the threat the First Order poses (or something).

AIUI they actually did shoot a scene like that (involving one of Leia's aides, the one we get a nice close up of before Hosnian Prime gets dusted), but it was cut for pacing reasons. My guess is that this was done in order to make Leia and Han's first meeting the first time we meet Leia, which is understandable. TFA is deliberately structured such that the audience only "meets" the OG characters when our heroes (Rey and Finn) do; cutting to Leia prior to the Hosnian system's destruction would mess with that flow.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
While I think TFA is a fine film and does it's "one job" pretty well (reassuring everyone that Star Wars is "back"),
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I mean, that's kinda my point. From a business perspective reintroducing a franchise into circulation, it makes sense. But as story decision it's problematic and essentially is never going to go away in terms of how it informs and kind of handicaps its sequels.
 
Arthur Frayn said:
While I think TFA is a fine film and does it's "one job" pretty well (reassuring everyone that Star Wars is "back"), I do think it was a missed opportunity not to at least offer the audience some context as to how things got the way they are. That works for ANH because it's starting in media res and part of the whole schtick was that it was meant to replicate watching some random episode of an old Flash Gordon serial (that and the movie moves so fast, and the world building is done so briefly, that you don't really notice). As much as the Prequels were bogged down in unnecessary exposition and I understand Abrams and co's aversion, it wouldn't have hurt to throw in like, one scene where Leia talks to the Republic via hologram and tries to convince them of the threat the First Order poses (or something).

AIUI they actually did shoot a scene like that (involving one of Leia's aides, the one we get a nice close up of before Hosnian Prime gets dusted), but it was cut for pacing reasons. My guess is that this was done in order to make Leia and Han's first meeting the first time we meet Leia, which is understandable. TFA is deliberately structured such that the audience only "meets" the OG characters when our heroes (Rey and Finn) do; cutting to Leia prior to the Hosnian system's destruction would mess with that flow.
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It was dope when it started with this whole "We're going on a hunt for long lost Luke", but then all of a sudden a super duper deathstar blows up a bunch of planets and the plot becomes a shitty repeat of the first Starwars, TFA completely lost me.

TLJ for some reason keeps bouncing back and forth between me liking it to me thinking its shit. In either case for TLJ, the characters still get lots of love.
 
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I kind of suspected there was something wrong from the beginning when it was too similar to ANH, but it was still a good film. I just couldn't deny they didn't have anything new in mind.

Much as I steadfastly defend TLJ from a friend of mine (who is in full-on "fuck Disney, Fuck SJWs" mode), I have to recall that I'm of mixed-negative minds about it as well, for a variety of reasons, with the lack of variety in the new setting being one of them.

Briefly putting on my "this would have been cool" hat: it would have been cool if they kept the Imperial Remnant (they can call it the First Order if they really want to) and in an actual Cold War with the New Republic, complete with both sides having Death Stars (that would be a butt-puckering sight: seeing the Death Star again, complete with the original fanfare, only to look behind it and see 5 more in the same system).

The two sides are at an uneasy peace and it's still sort of tense seeing those Star Destroyers despite characters insisting that "we're friends now." They could even not be the villains of the first movie, the antagonists could be similar or they could be entirely different/out there, establishing some of the new stuff at play. But movies 8&9 would have them go back to them being enemies, and frightening ones too.
 
They're early drafts for a reason.
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Yeah, that's the thing isn't it. Rian didn't even do that, he tossed it out. Lucas by making the effort at all ends up being a more serious writer.
Frankly doing the starkiller script instead of TFA and TLJ would have been far more interesting.
Rat King said:
Still doesn't make Star Wars a super serious mil scifi thing.
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You've confused taking writing seriously for not taking a product seriously because you view it as childish.
Elitist is the word that comes to mind. "They're early drafts for a reason." Isn't an argument. Neither is most of the dreck being used to justify it. Just because you don't take a sci-fi seriously doesn't mean it isn't serious.
The intent of Starwars is to be taken seriously based on a suspension of disbelief. TLJ breaks that convention, you could say; IT SUBVERTS EXPECTATIONS. Your confusion on the word serious and gritty is also laughable.
I'm not saying starwars is gritty, I'm saying it is serious. It believes in what is in the story. SERIOUS, understand what the word means.

Vympel said:
because it's not a straight two hours of gags and irreverence
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A complete joke. Literally spaceballs. Even some of the jokes are the same. Illegal parking, running out of fuel, better take that helmet off. Ohh, better watch out for that ship, wait no, It's an iron. "Hahah, oh look at how self aware it is! Gotta laugh and clap." The movie TLJ is closer to a comedic space film than actually being starwars. It's not supposed to have that element in it. That's why spaceballs was a parody film, it was poking fun at how serious it was about itself.
 
UnlosingRanger said:
Yeah, that's the thing isn't it. Rian didn't even do that, he tossed it out. Lucas by making the effort at all ends up being a more serious writer.
Frankly doing the starkiller script instead of TFA and TLJ would have been far more interesting.

You've confused taking writing seriously for not taking a product seriously because you view it as childish.
Elitist is the word that comes to mind. "They're early drafts for a reason." Isn't an argument. Neither is most of the dreck being used to justify it. Just because you don't take a sci-fi seriously doesn't mean it isn't serious.
The intent of Starwars is to be taken seriously based on a suspension of disbelief. TLJ breaks that convention, you could say; IT SUBVERTS EXPECTATIONS. Your confusion on the word serious and gritty is also laughable.
I'm not saying starwars is gritty, I'm saying it is serious. It believes in what is in the story. SERIOUS, understand what the word means.


A complete joke. Literally spaceballs. Even some of the jokes are the same. Illegal parking, running out of fuel, better take that helmet off. Ohh, better watch out for that ship, wait no, It's an iron. "Hahah, oh look at how self aware it is! Gotta laugh and clap." The movie TLJ is closer to a comedic space film than actually being starwars. It's not supposed to have that element in it. That's why spaceballs was a parody film, it was poking fun at how serious it was about itself.
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I mean, those drafts are laughably bad, in that I'm glad none of that ever made it onto the screen, because holy shiiiit. It's clearly informed by pulp sci-fi, but it's also not good in any sense of the word. You can see the nuggets of ideas there and you can also see why ol' George gave them a few more passes on editing.

And I do think sci-fi is a serious medium, but I don't think Star Wars itself is a "serious" property overall. It's pulp. It has humor. It has wackiness. It also has some things to say about stuff (like Vietnam or the Bush era, in the case of the prequels).

Suffice to say, I think you're absolutely wrong about the humor in TLJ, but that's ultimately a subjective take (as is liking the film in general, Lord knows I'm not gonna force people to like something). The running out of fuel thing isn't a "joke" insomuch as it's an obstacle.

You seem to want Star Wars to be more "serious" and I think you're incredibly off-base; Star Wars has always made shit up and had wacky shenanigans in it. Like I said - itt's pulp serial stuff, made for kids or at least to be enjoyed by kids. I love it dearly. But you're trying to say it's something it isn't and never really has been. The world building has always been shaky, at best. And I'm fine with that.
 
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UnlosingRanger said:
A complete joke. Literally spaceballs. Even some of the jokes are the same. Illegal parking, running out of fuel, better take that helmet off. Ohh, better watch out for that ship, wait no, It's an iron. "Hahah, oh look at how self aware it is! Gotta laugh and clap." The movie TLJ is closer to a comedic space film than actually being starwars. It's not supposed to have that element in it. That's why spaceballs was a parody film, it was poking fun at how serious it was about itself.
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Yeah what a surprise someone who's trying to argue that the OT is a serious space documentary because he saw charred skeletons in a single scene has obvious bad faith criticisms of TLJ.

Look at this serious dark gritty Dark Knight Rises stuff:



I especially like the pathos of Han ineffectually trying to blow out the fire. So dark.

My favorite one is this though:

"running out of fuel"

Imagine thinking that ships suffering logistical constraints in a crisis situation is being played for laughs, and then having the courage to let other people know that by putting it in a post.
 
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Quantumsheep said:
Are you really trying to back up a guy claiming 'Star Wars isn't supposed to have comedy elements' by... I shouldn't even have to get into how much of a non sequitur comparing openings is, we're already in loopy land.
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The opening sets the tone of the movie. Now if the movie was actually subversive then it take the joke filled opening and make the rest of the move not joke filled nonsense. It doesn't now does it? Now I will happily agree that all the movies do have moments of banter and fun poking, but unless you want to say that the movies wernt trying to be fantasy epics in space and that they where instead aiming for jar jar binks levels of 'jokes' well... I don't think that says anything good about the movie now does it?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Now if the movie was actually subversive then it take the joke filled opening and make the rest of the move not joke filled nonsense. It doesn't now does it? Now I will happily agree that all the movies do have moments of banter and fun poking,
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Then you aren't even disagreeing with the point of my post, and are instead just using it as a jumping off point to demonstrate that you don't know what 'subversive' means and don't understand what people mean when they use it to describe TLJ. Great. Thanks for that.
 
I will admit The Last Jedi is contending for "genuinely funniest Star Wars film" at points (with The Force Awakens being its biggest competition in my opinion), which my relatives in Massachusetts were relieved by since they were worried the film would be too depressing with Han dead (and I'm just glad the jokes were anywhere close to a semblance funny as opposed to Jar Jar's borderline sambo act).

I don't really think there's too much of a tone problem in the sense that the height of the climax's tension and drama is cut by a sequence where it's just joke or light-hearted action (like Disney's Hercules did with Meg's death).

At most, there's a brief gag, like the scene where Rey receives another Force vision with Kylo Ren is somewhat tense until Rey sees that Kylo Ren is totally shredded and has an 8-pack, whereupon the tone is light with her reaction before it returns.
 
Kodiak said:
It should be no problem whatsoever in any sense for Coruscant - even if it was just Coruscant and not Coruscant as one of many old, super wealthy, politically aligned worlds - to have imposed their version of society everywhere you can reach with those hyperdrives a long, long time ago.
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foamy said:
Being able to get anywhere quickly -- which is certainly largely possible in Star Wars -- doesn't mean you have any particular reason to do so. A galaxy is a big, big, place, y'know?
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Frankly, the fallacy of "trickle down economics" is the best way to explain this: Why bother investing in something that will have high costs but low income over a long period, when you can just dump your gains in a hyperinflated sector where the galaxy is the limit in how you can enjoy yourself?
 
Shanejayell said:
Post 'Return of the Jedi' Tie Fighters vs New Republic mini series will cross over between novels and comics.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rebel-and-imperial-pilots-duel-in-a-post-return-of-the-1831879587

Edit: Is there a Star Wars: General thread? Because I know this doesn't quite fit here. But the only threads we have seem to be this, the old EU thread, and the new animated series.
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This is the de facto Disney canon thread, and we'll presumably pick up in the Episode IX thread whenever the film's name is released.
 
Jace911 said:
hoo boy this is some deep core galaxy brain take
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"refusal to properly engage with those holding a controversial or disagreeable position will be met with longer periods of Threadbans." You aren't making an argument.
WC-83 said:
I don't really think there's too much of a tone problem in the sense that the height of the climax's tension and drama is cut by a sequence where it's just joke or light-hearted action (like Disney's Hercules did with Meg's death).
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There is a scene where the climax of snoke and rey is about to happen and a small droid that is supposed to clean things breaks it when they cut away like it's family guy. That's the definition of a tone problem for the series as a whole. And it does it over and over and over in the film.
Vympel said:
Yeah what a surprise someone who's trying to argue that the OT is a serious space documentary because he saw charred skeletons in a single scene has obvious bad faith criticisms of TLJ.

Look at this serious dark gritty Dark Knight Rises stuff:

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Make an argument. That scene you show there is used to reflect on the tragedy of death later regarding the ewoks.
 
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UnlosingRanger said:

Make an argument. That scene you show there is used to reflect on the tragedy of death later regarding the ewoks.
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UnlosingRanger said:
That's the definition of a tone problem for the series as a whole.
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I mean, you already seem to have made the argument yourself.

EDIT: Ah, never mind, just noticed the edit.

FURTHER EDIT: Though, thinking about it further, the fact that your argument still seems to consist of simply posting single scenes and extrapolating their tone to cover the whole movie is worth noting.

FURTHER FURTHER EDIT: Actually, that scene in particular just undermines your argument because it cuts straight against the extremely campy tone of the entire rest of the battle on Endor.
 
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