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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

The Imperator said:
I didn't really like Rose as a character, but having an agenda does not mean you're bad. Lots of movies that are good have agendas beyond just writing a story.

That said,

You can think Nazis are bad without being Antifa. I like messages showing the worthlessness of fascist thought that things like TLJ does, although that doesn't mean I necessarily like TLJ as a whole.

EDIT: Making me defend TLJ, *shudder * :p
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The thing about Rose is that I was rolling my eyes at Disney backing off from either the Finn X Poe or Finn X Rey pairings clearly established/presaged by the first movie.

Fucking cowards. Finn X Rey X Poe is the OnlyTP.:V
 
Southshore said:
That said, I am convinced the crux of it is that the production for TFA and TLJ was more concerned with promoting affirmative action than creating tangible fictional characters in an internally consistent setting. Because clearly they were not at all concerned.
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I'm not sure why you think the amount of concern TFA/TLJ production had for representative characters was in competition for good character and setting. Setting up an diversity/affirmative action quota for a film takes maybe ten minutes, and the number of people interested in starring in a prestige role in a Star Wars film is so astronomically high you could declare a role only open to LGBT people of color who are also left handed and still find yourself needing to pick out a hundred candidates who all could probably give a good performance under the right script and direction.

Course that's the kicker. If you got a junk script and junk direction, it rarely matters how capable your cast is. It'll usually end up junk to. And the arguable problems that TFA/TLJ have with character, pacing, setting consistency would not be improved if we had more white dudebros in the cast.


That isn't to say that the people making these movies don't probably have a progressive bend. But that's not surprising. Most people make movies with some social/political slant of some kind. Even the original Star Wars had that. But I personally think that the directors/producers at Lucasmfilm being bad (or more charitably, hit and miss) at their jobs is a bigger reasons for the films problems than their personal politics.
 
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I would like the record to show that South shore didn't answer the question about TLJ political agenda and when pressed started a total derail rather than answer.

Also I will get into the earlier argument about Finn and Rose but I'm on my phone so I can't type out the response I think it needs.
 
Ser_Serendipity said:
What?! The crux of Southshore's dislike of the sequel trilogy is "BLACKS AND WOMEN IN A MOVIE?????"

I'm shocked. I can't even express the depths of my surprise.
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...The problem has never been people of different races or genders appearing in Star Wars films. It's that it feels like at times their only personality is being the one black stormtrooper or being the girl who's good at everything.

Frankly, the concept that Star Wars fans, in general, are "threatened by strong women" is frankly ridiculous to me once you realize that Star Wars fans LOVE strong women. The entire reason Maria Jade caught on with the fandom where all the Kirk-style love interests for Luke failed was that she was the only one who was amazing in her own right. Go further into the old EU, and you get Jana Solo, the woman who was given the title "The Sword of the Jedi" and completely owns it. Literally, if someone was to create a thread titled "Jaina Solo is the most badass character in Star Wars, prove me wrong" on here or Spacebattles, there's like maybe 5 characters that could possibly be considered as contesters to that claim. In all of Star Wars, total.

Not a fan of the EU? Well, how about Leia, the woman who flat out would not break under torture, lied in the face of Tarken when faced with the threat of her entire planet's destruction, assumed control of the hodgepodged rescue mission attempted to save her and commanded the mission to destroy the Death Star. And that's just her achievements in the first film she was in. Looking for more modern examples? Well, if you have had any involvement with the Star Wars community in the past decade, you know about Ahsoka Tano. And well, I don't feel like I even need to explain why she loved by so much of the fandom.
 
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spaceman1997 said:
...The problem has never been people of different races or genders appearing in Star Wars films. It's that it feels like at times their only personality is being the one black stormtrooper or being the girl who's good at everything.

Frankly, the concept that Star Wars fans, in general, are "threatened by strong women" is frankly ridiculous to me once you realize that Star Wars fans LOVE strong women. The entire reason Maria Jade caught on with the fandom where all the Kirk-style love interests for Luke failed was that she was the only one who was amazing in her own right. Go further into the old EU, and you get Jana Solo, the woman who was given the title "The Sword of the Jedi" and completely owns it. Literally, if someone was to create a thread titled "Jaina Solo is the most badass character in Star Wars, prove me wrong" on here or Spacebattles, there's like maybe 5 characters that could possibly be considered as contesters to that claim. In all of Star Wars, total.

Not a fan of the EU? Well, how about Leia, the woman who flat out would not break under torture, lied in the face of Tarken when faced with the threat of her entire planet's destruction, assumed control of the hodgepodged rescue mission attempted to save her and commanded the mission to destroy the Death Star. And that's just her achievements in the first film she was in. Looking for more modern examples? Well, if you have had any involvement with the Star Wars community in the past decade, you know about Ahsoka Tano. And well, I don't feel like I even need to explain why she loved by so much of the fandom.
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No one here has once claimed the fandom is "threatened by strong women". You seem to have invented that argument in order to rebut it. Instead we're pointing out that seeing Rey as "the girl who is good at everything" and writing her off as flat when she isn't is the problem. People have since the ST started written her off as a Mary Sue (in a blatant misunderstanding of that term) without either actually seeing that her character isn't that simplistic and the perceived faults of her portrayal are actually shared by Luke and to a lesser extent Anakin making it seem like either the fans have glossed over the direct thematic links or are holding her to a higher standard simply due to her gender. Like Luke and Rey's characters are almost exactly the same on a base level yet Luke is seen as a Campbellian archetype and Rey is seen as a Mary Sue.
 
spaceman1997 said:
...The problem has never been people of different races or genders appearing in Star Wars films.
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No I'm pretty sure that the problem is exactly that when someone responds to the basic moral standard of "Nazis are bad" for reasons such as their starting one of the most destructive conflicts in world history or introducing industrial-scale murder of minorities in a systemic fashion with:

Southshore said:
Are you a member of Antifa?
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Which, to your credit, you have not done. But save your breath trying to defend Southshore.

For that matter, save your breath with this argument about strong female characters, as no one has advanced it.
 
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Stop: Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational banhammer
  • Staff Post
    • Southshore said:
    Other people are better at explaining it than me. I'm much better at discussing works of fiction since the "facts" of a story are laid out for all to see and digest. I don't like to get into discussions concerning "behind-the-scenes" drama or what have you. I don't like dealing with rumors and spin, and I just as soon assume everyone is lying about that stuff.

    That said, I am convinced the crux of it is that the production for TFA and TLJ was more concerned with promoting affirmative action than creating tangible fictional characters in an internally consistent setting. Because clearly they were not at all concerned.
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    now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational banhammer Southshore, you've consistently utilized racist and sexist dog whistles in attempt to cloak your bigoted response to a movie about space wizards. Unfortunately for you, you haven't been very successful in this endeavour. Furthermore, you have expressed an extremely controversial opinion with all the subtlety and mindfulness of a chainsaw. You have made this thread about you.

    Due to breaches of rules four and two, @Southshore has been issued a fifty point infraction and a permanent threadban. If you are considering posting in a similar fashion, you should reconsider.
     
  • Staff Post
    • But really, this tangent has been distracting from the real question at hand:

    Is it okay to punch a member of the First Order? :V
     
    Mechasaurian said:
    But really, this tangent has been distracting from the real question at hand:

    Is it okay to punch a member of the First Order? :V
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    No as Iden Versio show they can be reasoned with. We simply have to wait for them to personally watch as their own home planet is destroyed, and then after several more years of serving the people that killed their entire planet when the next time genocide will come up they will finally have second thoughts and turn their life around. I mean they aren't monsters after all. :V
     
    Tasrill said:
    No as Iden Versio show they can be reasoned with. We simply have to wait for them to personally watch as their own home planet is destroyed, and then after several more years of serving the people that killed their entire planet when the next time genocide will come up they will finally have second thoughts and turn their life around. I mean they aren't monsters after all. :V
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    It is 100% okay to prank call them.
     
    Mechasaurian said:
    But really, this tangent has been distracting from the real question at hand:

    Is it okay to punch a member of the First Order? :V
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    Honestly it really is frustrating to me how uncivil the Resistance is. I feel like if they were to just open dialogues with the First Order then it's quite possible everything would turn around for them and much of the galaxy; everybody is capable of changing- remember that man who convinced people in the KKK? Leia is supposed to be incredibly charismatic, why doesn't she try that?

    I just feel like civil engagement is an option that everybody should consider with an open mind. Violence only begets more violence, and I worry that this incredibly radical attitude among the Resistance (honestly even their name is provocative!) could very well lead to radicalization on the other side of the aisle. What if First Order members, seeing their attitude, become even more intolerant?

    Given the violence and death the Resistance has inflicted upon people, really this all proves that if you go too far in the other direction, you become exactly what you hated in the first place.
     
    ...you know, it bothers me that we don't have a good shorthand for "members of the First Order."

    Members of the Empire (particularly their military) were "Imperials" - it's fairly snappy and accurately conveys the sneering arrogance of our favourite SW villains. What's more, it can be shortened to "Imps" - good for mockery.

    Members of the First Order are...Orderites? Firsties? I can't seem to come up with something that works. :confused:
     
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    Mechasaurian said:
    ...you know, it bothers me that we don't have a good shorthand for "members of the First Order."

    Members of the Empire (particularly their military) were "Imperials" - it's fairly snappy and accurately conveys the sneering arrogance of our favourite SW villains. What's more, it can be shortened to "Imps" - good for mockery.

    Members of First Order are...Orderites? Firsties? I can't seem to come up with something that works. :confused:
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    FOck Heads
     
    Undead Martyr said:
    Add to this that Disney frankly lacks any sort of overarching *plan* for the series. Like for all his faults Lucas at least set out to make trilogies with a clear narrative arc across all three films (and an idea as to where the trilogies are relative to each other); Disney, for all that I enjoyed their work as entertainment... has clearly not organized this. Contrast with say the Marvel verse, where even when the movies aren't the best the overall writing is still clearly respectful of a common shared universe. Worst of all... the Sequel Trilogy hasn't really delivered on the bare minimum of space shooty goodness.

    The worst part of it all is that it's so obvious that Disney could have done much, much better- I mean, they did a lot better with Rogue One's space battle/Vader curbstomp-, but... either didn't, or didn't bother, or whatever? Why, exactly, can't the new trilogy have an epic space battle on the scale of Endor, Coruscant, or Scarif? Why do none of the villains manage to hold a candle to OT or Rogue 1 Vader, or manage to be straight up threatening/scary/cool like Maul was, or Vader, or even Grievous?
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    Hate to break it to you, but (PT aside) Lucas had no idea what he was doing or what the plan was for the OT. Star Wars (it was only later that it was retroactively christened "Episode IV") was written as a one off, with a few potential sequels considered; the spin off novel (and first piece of EU material) "Splinter of the Minds Eye" was developed from Lucas' plan for a "budget" sequel to Star Wars, in case they didn't get the money for a full sequel. Empire, while held up as the platonic idea of the "middle" film in a trilogy, was just written and conceived of as the "next" film in the series. Vader being Luke's father was something they came up with during production, and absolutely wasn't on anyone's radar during filming of ANH. Hell, there were still plans for multiple sequels to Empire, until Lucas just got sick of the whole thing and decided to wrap everything up. The original plan was for the Rebellion to succeed in defeating the Empire, albeit at the cost of Han's life. Leia would be crowned Queen of the Galaxy (or something), while Luke would depart for the wild edge of space to find his sister (who was a separate character from Leia).

    And honestly, even the PT had huge chunks made up on the fly. The broad strokes of Palpatine's plan and the story beats were there from the start, but after Phantom Menace went over like a lead balloon Lucas retooled huge chunks of Clones to appease the fans (supposedly he really, really didn't want to write and direct Clones and only finished the script like a week or so before principal photography started).

    Basically, Star Wars has always been made up on the fly, and the idea that there should be a "master plan" ala the MCU (which is being generous to the MCU, I doubt they figured out the "path to Infinity War" until after Ultron's release) just doesn't match the rest of the franchise.
     
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    Mechasaurian said:
    But really, this tangent has been distracting from the real question at hand:

    Is it okay to punch a member of the First Order? :V
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    Definately. They might not be Nazi's but they're still xenophobic fasists trying to conquror the galaxy with WMD's. Punch away.

    Edit: Unless you are talking about cosplayers. In which case, seriously don't.
     
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    Tomsawyer18 said:
    So here's a question.

    How dangerous must the First Order think Rey is?

    After all Supreme Leader Ben is the one who said she killed Snoke and his Guards.
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    That probably puts her into the territory of "Don't even bother trying to beat her in a ground engagement. If you see her, take off and turbolaser the continent she's on into slag. It's the only way to be sure."
     
    Tomsawyer18 said:
    Yeah but they also know that Jedi can avoid that. Looks at Luke. *


    *guessing most don't know about projecting himself across the galaxy.
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    Ben should be able to inform the FO of that nugget of information. If he felt Luke's death as Rey did, he can tell them that too.

    Alternatively, if doesn't want to admit to being physically/psychologically/morally defeated by an illusion, he can claim that only the legendary evil sorcerer Luke Skywalker could ever shrug off that degree of firepower and that Rey, while dangerous, is not quite that dangerous.
     
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    Mechasaurian said:
    Ben should be able to inform the FO of that nugget of information. If he felt Luke's death as Rey did, he can tell them that too.
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    Honestly I don't think anyone would be particularly inclined to believe Kylo when he claimed he felt Ben died, on account of Kylo being an emotionally unhinged loon.

    Though I don't think anyone would be particularly inclined to express their disbelief to his face about it, on account of Kylo being an emotionally unhinged loon. :p
     
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