Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

And yet not a year before we had a CGI Tarkin.

Yea, because the actor who played Tarkin died in 1994, the actor who voiced Ackbar died in 2016. There's actually a whole ethics thing in Hollywood over how you portray a character after a key actor has died so recently. It was a big thing with Carrie Fisher that the directors had to seriously consider before releasing TLJ and even onto the final movie. Sometimes it's ok, sometimes it isn't.

Like, people complained about CGI Tarkin and Leia as is, you don't make that worse by doing it right after they died.
 
Rule 4 Violation: Video without context


You know when your movie has problems when voice actors start talking shit on it

Preach Crispin preach
 
Google says he was the voice of Alucard in Hellsing and Winston in Overwatch among other things (mostly anime). Did a ctrl+F for 'Star Wars' and nothing came up. As a TLJ liker and SJW, I'm literally shaking and crying right now.

EDIT: In other words, he's "thing I recognise from other thing".
 
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As someone who loves the movie, I will say the last jedi's character designs where really bad. Not enough aliens or weird costumes going around. It just didn't feel totemic (as in if I saw any of the characters on a toy shelf, and that was all I knew about then, I wouldn't be interested in buying them)
 


You know when your movie has problems when voice actors start talking shit on it

Preach Crispin preach


So, the problem I'm seeing here is there's a bit of a disconnect. It's fine not to like the movie, but that's twice now that people who have expressed their dislike in as many pages that haven't engaged in a way that expresses any real goodwill towards an actual honest debate.

You can't just post a video of some random voice actor with nothing else and shout "preach!", that's nothing. It's useless banter. I can't tell if he's giving an honest critique or is just talking shit because I can't watch the video right now.

Why should his opinion be held up? The only connection I have to go on is that he doesn't like it, you don't like it, so now you're empathising his opinion simply because he agrees with you, or you with him. You seem to have forgotten you actually have to prove the value of the argument.
 


You know when your movie has problems when voice actors start talking shit on it

Preach Crispin preach

You do realize his points are basically "Luke's actions don't make sense", "Holdo should have told people her plan" and "the ST relies too much on the past". Like those are the most basic criticisms this movie has and has been brought up here many many times. Why is it suddenly a huge strike against the film when Crispin Freeman, who has no conection at all to the Star Wars films, says what has been said a million times?
 
I like Crispin Freeman, but I don't really expect a random actor that wasn't even part of the production to have particularly deep or compelling things to say about a work's writing and critical analysis that haven't been better said elsewhere tbh.
 
Warning: Warning
warning

@Zaru, posting a video without context and replacing your argument with the video, no matter how long or short it is, is a violation of Rule 4. I'll have to give you a 25 point infraction and a three day threadban. Note if the points drive you above certain thresholds, site bans will take place. In the future, give at least a summary.



You know when your movie has problems when voice actors start talking shit on it

Preach Crispin preach


 
Out of curiosity, did anyone manage to pinpoint the reason some people are obsessed with Akbar taking Holodo's place in the course of this thread?

Quite a bit late to this, but a major reason would be because he is someone that would have actually had Poe's respect, to begin with. And he's been shown onscreen to know what he's doing, and a familiar character, and... you know, could have done what Holdo did, except do it better and in a way that would have provided the 'Poe is a hotheaded idiot storyline' instead of the 'Poe will make some damn leadership if none is provided' thread we got.
 
Quite a bit late to this, but a major reason would be because he is someone that would have actually had Poe's respect, to begin with. And he's been shown onscreen to know what he's doing, and a familiar character, and... you know, could have done what Holdo did, except do it better and in a way that would have provided the 'Poe is a hotheaded idiot storyline' instead of the 'Poe will make some damn leadership if none is provided' thread we got.
That she's an Admiral really should have been all Poe needed to respect her, but I'm interested to hear your reasoning for why Ackbar could have done it better than Holdo.
 
Quite a bit late to this, but a major reason would be because he is someone that would have actually had Poe's respect, to begin with. And he's been shown onscreen to know what he's doing, and a familiar character, and... you know, could have done what Holdo did, except do it better and in a way that would have provided the 'Poe is a hotheaded idiot storyline' instead of the 'Poe will make some damn leadership if none is provided' thread we got.
1. Ackbar having Poe's respect would make the arc make less sense
2. The only time Ackbar's been shown on screen, he is depicted as not knowing the correct course of action
 
That she's an Admiral really should have been all Poe needed to respect her, but I'm interested to hear your reasoning for why Ackbar could have done it better than Holdo.

The biggest things would be: One, he's someone we already know, as Holdo was some random nobody.

Two: He already has some established characterization that lends itself to proper leadership (not the shit sandwich described as 'superb leadership' by the movie) that would have actually provided actual basis for the dunking the movie was doing on Poe.

1. Ackbar having Poe's respect would make the arc make less sense
2. The only time Ackbar's been shown on screen, he is depicted as not knowing the correct course of action

Ackbar entirely sensibly wanted to retreat in the face of a BFG 9000. Wrong call, but the right call was absolute madness under any rational examination without the additional information the audience is provided. And, more importantly, he proceeded to beat the Executor like a redheaded stepchild being shaken down by the mafia with relatively minimal losses other than the giant doom-moon behind his fleet. And also decisively defeated multiple other star destroyers, and prosecuted an astounding campaign that culminated in Jakku. He's actually pretty damn good. Actually having a reasonable leader that has a proven history and whose character would call for slightly more communication (at the least: yes, I have a plan, you're not going to like it instead of 'lol, Leia demoted you literal seconds before the FO showed up, ain't gotta tell you nothing despite that event proving you right' petulance) actually makes the 'Poe is a rash idiot who jumps the gun' intended arc make sense instead of how it currently is where in the absence of orders and every indication of betrayal from the alleged leadership he does what he can to try and save everybody even if it fails miserably.
 
That she's an Admiral really should have been all Poe needed to respect her, but I'm interested to hear your reasoning for why Ackbar could have done it better than Holdo.

How many times in fiction does a high-ranking officer turn out to be a mouthbreathing idiot?

I'll go with the established competent Admiral over a just introduced nobody, thanks.
 
The biggest things would be: One, he's someone we already know, as Holdo was some random nobody.

Two: He already has some established characterization that lends itself to proper leadership (not the shit sandwich described as 'superb leadership' by the movie) that would have actually provided actual basis for the dunking the movie was doing on Poe.



Ackbar entirely sensibly wanted to retreat in the face of a BFG 9000. Wrong call, but the right call was absolute madness under any rational examination without the additional information the audience is provided. And, more importantly, he proceeded to beat the Executor like a redheaded stepchild being shaken down by the mafia with relatively minimal losses other than the giant doom-moon behind his fleet. And also decisively defeated multiple other star destroyers, and prosecuted an astounding campaign that culminated in Jakku. He's actually pretty damn good. Actually having a reasonable leader that has a proven history and whose character would call for slightly more communication (at the least: yes, I have a plan, you're not going to like it instead of 'lol, Leia demoted you literal seconds before the FO showed up, ain't gotta tell you nothing despite that event proving you right' petulance) actually makes the 'Poe is a rash idiot who jumps the gun' intended arc make sense instead of how it currently is where in the absence of orders and every indication of betrayal from the alleged leadership he does what he can to try and save everybody even if it fails miserably.

Except again, the whole point is that Holdo is set up as someone for Poe (and the audience) to mistrust, only for it to be revealed that she knew what she was doing and Poe should have trusted her. Ackbar replacing her, especially on the grounds of "He's a competent Admiral that Poe would have trusted" completely misses the point of that entire plotline and renders it irrelevant. In what way would the story about trusting leaders in times of crisis be improved by having the deliberately suspicious leader be swapped with one fans knew and already liked and respected? What's dramatically interesting about it beyond "Hey I recognize that guy"?

Please remember that Star Wars isn't real, so arguments that rest on "Poe would have trusted him" immediately fail because these aren't real people making real time decisions, they're characters being used to convey dramatic themes.

Now, I supposed you could include Ackbar in a plotline where he's shown to be an old and out of touch dope who's in over his head, with Poe repeatedly trying (and failing) to get him to face reality, leading to him sacrificing himself in the lightspeed ram (or whatever) as a means of redemption, but that's a very different story than the one Johnson was trying to tell.
 
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The fact that Leia trusted Holdo enough to put her as an Admiral in her organization should've been all that Poe (or the audience) needed to respect her capabilities. But the fact is, and this is evident in the film, Leia is sentimental about Poe and has spoiled him with it (despite his flagrant disobedience) so he thinks that he knows better than everyone else and expects Leia to side with him when she comes walking through that door. Leia by that point has clearly seen that he didn't get the message that demoting him was intended to convey since he doubles down by further subverting the chain of command and ignoring the wisdom of people fighting this war since before he was a gleam in his father's eye. Which gets him stunned the fuck unconscious as he very clearly deserved.

Similarly, audiences have been spoiled by indulgent storytellers who push the narrative that being a protagonist makes your actions the only right course of action. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is an enemy or incompetent. And, like spoiled children, certain TLJ viewers now revolt because they don't like being told that they've been spoiled and that their understanding of things like "chain of command" and "obeying people who are demonstratively more experienced than you" is limited.

I guess it stings when your favorite franchise tells you it's time to grow up and climb out of the basement.

How many times in fiction does a high-ranking officer turn out to be a mouthbreathing idiot?

I'll go with the established competent Admiral over a just introduced nobody, thanks.
So you're complaining because this film refuses to use a cliche trope designed by people who've never been within a continent of real warfare and dares to imply that people who got high up might've actually worked to get there.

Ackbar has never been established in the films to be competent. He hasn't really even been established, because he's not a character. He appeared, spoke twice, and then fucked off to become a meme for your kind to obsess over and glorify.
 
I'm not sure how people can miss that the deconstructions in TLJ aren't supposed to be improved. Like it's very clearly framed with Leia looking at the squad board that Poe was insubordinate and made a costly mistake. Which she follows up by smacking and demoting him.

Poe then proceeds to make the exact same mistake again, trying to command operations from a tactical seat where he lacks full information. Why? Because it is 30 minutes later and he hasn't had time to learn.

It's far from the only pulp trope subversion in TLJ (the movie is one long "Reality Ensures") but seems to be the one that pisses people off the most.
 
Saying TLJ would have been better if Poe and the admiral trusted each other more is like saying Hamlet would have been a better play if Hamlet had just killed Claudius straight away. There's this real desire amongst people for everything on the screen to go properly, as if the ideal narrative has all the drama of a self-insert fixfic. I'm pretty sympathetic to the points about pacing and chronology, Finn/Rose being a little cliché/contrived, even Finn's collapsing speeder at the end not being communicated that well (though that's a subjective point and I know others thought it was obvious), but this is a ridiculous issue to have. Especially when the outrage at this movie is compared to the generally mild irritation with all the bullshit in Infinity War (I guess there wasn't a woman to get mad at in that film:whistle:).

If you doubted Holdo's basic competence during the movie, it's partially, if not wholly, because you were being primed by Rian Johnson's use of typical but cosmetic "incompetent politician" tropes. I was taken by some of those tropes too (the purple hair and dress for instance). But ultimately, her actions were all natural and justified, and the narrative at the very least vindicates her plan. Yeah, telling Poe the plan would have prevented a lot of problems, but that's because we know Poe is a protagonist being played by Oscar Isaac, rather than simply a rebellious hotshot with an independent streak that might fall in line or maybe take issue with the plan and use it to build more unrest or leak it. It's ok to be fooled by a movie.
 
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Let's give credit where credit is due though, at least part of the reason the Poe/Holdo debate gets as heated as it does is because Oscaar Isaac does have more charisma than he knows what to do with which makes it really easy for you to want to root for him even when his character is being an idiot.
 
Quite a bit late to this, but a major reason would be because he is someone that would have actually had Poe's respect, to begin with. And he's been shown onscreen to know what he's doing, and a familiar character, and... you know, could have done what Holdo did, except do it better and in a way that would have provided the 'Poe is a hotheaded idiot storyline' instead of the 'Poe will make some damn leadership if none is provided' thread we got.
The problem is Holdo had far too much importance and build up to be a throw-away character, yet was treated as such. Bringing her in just for a single "lesson" for Poe then immediately killing her off just weakens the entire film. As the Poe arc is timed to line up with the "Twist" in TLJthere frankly isn't enough time to develop an entirely new character to fit the Antagonist role for Poe, at least not properly. Thus the role kinda needs to go to a decently important character already, preferably as their swan song or their introduction.

That is why Ackbar keeps cropping up as the person who should have taken Holdo's place. It's not bigotry or the dislike of the character, it's just that Ackbar fits the role better. He at least has a reputation prior to TLJ, thus there's enough additional characterization to carry the antagonist.

This is also why the people who were up to date with the Disney EU Books as Holdo was first introduced to them outside the movie, giving her some much-needed depth. That said, I still count this against the movie as works should be able to stand on their own, or at least only on their own medium (i.e. prior films can be a requirement for a movie, but a book or video game can't be).

Now Ackbar replacing Holdo was not the only way to fix the arc, and, in fact, is in my mind the weaker way to do so. As people have brought up in the thread here, Ackbar really got most of his fame from Legends and thus doesn't have the same kind of pull in Disney Canon. In addition, I really don't like writing the new characters and content out of the new Canon if I can help it. So the better way would be to keep Holdo as the antagonist, but make sure she survives the film and promoter to a proper secondary character. I don't care how you do it -- have someone else sacrifice themselves or just cut the hyperspace ram entirely (we aren't Star Trek, keep the lore consistent) -- but Holdo surviving and having her own character development in the background would do wonders to make her a proper antagonist. Plus then you have a foil/rival for Poe for the next film.

So yeah, there's my 2 cents on why Holdo being treated like a throw-away character just makes Poe's arc weaker.
 
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