Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

That's bullshit. People were practically desperate to have their concerns over the film be addressed. The only messages coming out of Lucasfilm and the media is that critics of the film are racist/sexist. If you raise valid criticisms and concerns and they go unacknowledged, while insults are hurled out in general what are you supposed to think? That as far as they're concerned, the only critics of the film that exist are racists and sexists.

That the movie is perfect and if you don't think so you must be one of these people. That's the game the studio is playing. It's very obvious that many people are upset or disillusioned with Star Wars now, but rather than try any kind of damage control, to mend fences, they're doubling down.

Fan feedback is ignored by something on the major studio scale even when it isn't tainted with all the racist, sexist neckbeard shit this was. This is for good reason. Fan demands about content are overwhelmingly bad and/or have no consideration of what is involved in making a broadly appealing film.

We've seen a pure sci-fi fanboy movie made this year. It was called Pacific Rim : Uprising and it grossed around 1/4th the US box office Solo did. So no, Disney who is gunning for $600m+ domestic and well over $1 billion worldwide on its main SW movies does not give a flying fuck about what the most rabid corners of the Internet have to say. They're trying to appeal to tens of millions, not thousands.

If one has even a passing knowledge of drama and how Hollywood feels about story beats for that size film and knows this is Part II of III, they could call most of TLJ from how TFA ended. Not every dramatic choice or detail but the big treatment? Absolutely.

The only regret Disney has over TFA and TLJ is that they catered too much to original trilogy fans and wound up sacrificing the Chinese market.
 
I liked TLJ a lot. Not a perfect film, but certainly a daring one (especially compared with TFA).

I loved R1 when I saw it, and still do.

TFA is a film I think a little less of every time I think about it, to the degree that I now dislike it despite finding it okay when it came out.

I dislike the ST as whole thanks to everything fucking JayJay did to poison the well by going back to Empire vs Rebels 2.0 and undercutting the OT's accomplishments.


As for the competence debate...how do I put this? The original Empire was never really a bastion of hypercompetence, that much is true. And a certain degree of carelessness on the part of the villains is to enable the victory of the good guys is acceptable. But making the villains completely bufoonish and ineffectual in the name of "stripping away the mysticism of fascism" strikes me as anathema to good drama.

And the First Order were...pretty much completely undercut as a threat to the heroes by the end of TFA (Kylo Ren accomplishing little of note, Phasma tossed into the rubbish chute, stormtroopers failing to achieve victory over anything other than a village of civilians, Snoke being an empty pastiche etc). TLJ gave Snoke some actual personality and made Kylo Ren into an actually interesting character, but it largely continued the thread of the FO being a wannabe Empire that fails to live up to its predeccor. Heck, it even threw in Captain Canady, a silver fox ex-Imperial with a modicum of competence, to contrast with Hux and the other neo-Imperials!

Granted, in fiction we routinely have faith that the heroes will win in the end. But the thing about well written stories is that they can test our faith (assuming the bad guys don't outright win, as in Stover's RotS novelization). Thanks to the shaky foundations laid by TFA, the First Order just doesn't do it for me.
I cannot really agree about undercutting the ot accomplishments. It is more that it is a realistic outcome of people becoming complacment and thinking that if evil was once defeated it won't return. Lord if the Rings is something similiat.
 
Kinda disagree. The pacing was much worse for TLJ than ANH or ESB. RotJ and rogue One, much as I love them, were the same though- all first and third act, no middle.

Worldbuilding for TFA was also very clearly inferior to the original trilogy, to the point where it became a Sysphean trial for Rian Johnson to pick up where JJ left off.
Actually, Rogue One had more of a solid 2nd act then you think, with a

Prologue (Jyn's backstory),

Act 1 (showing all the principle characters and ending when they depart for Jedha),

Act 2 (a good chuck of the movie, part 1 ending when they leave Jedha as it's blown up, and part 2 ending with their return to Yavin),

Act 3 (the infiltration and battle for Scariff. The climax occurs when Jyn successfully transmits the plans to the Rebels, the act ending with the Death Star destroying the base and the rest of the characters set up in Act 1)

And an Epilogue (Vader doing The Cool Thing but failing to get the plans the heroes sent, seeing the fleeing ship and intending to follow).

RotJ has the same thing but I've said enough.

TFA had bare bones world building, the minimum needed for the new sequel, but I will say TLJ is partially at fault for not taking advantage of the few potential it did have (instead of full scale war finally breaking out between two somewhat evenly matched forces, TLJ said "nope! Bad guys won in one shot! God speed Rebels!").
 
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The OT Empire wasn't exactly a bastion of competence; most of the upper echelons were incompetent (Ozzel, Krennic), yes-men (Piett, Jerjorrod), or over-confident to the point of arrogance (Tarkin).

Ozzel wasn't incompetent. He wanted better intelligence than what the probe droid provided (he's a normal human and doesn't have the Force telling him what to do), and his decision to bring the fleet in close to Hoth was the correct one. Vader rashly concluded that the rebel base was alerted by the appearance of the fleet, when in reality they were leaving because they'd discovered the probe droid. If Ozzel hadn't deployed the fleet in close proximity to Hoth, that would have only given them more time to evacuate.

Piett was not a yes-man. There was an old joke in the EU about Vader's ship being the fast track to promotion due to the frequent misfortune of the command staff. You don't get to command the Executor for over a year without doing something right.

Tarkin spent more than 20 years building up his cred and getting shit done, effectively conquering the Outer Rim which was something the Republic and it's Jedi failed to do in over a 1000 years. I'd say someone on the eve of the accumulation of their life's work is a pretty understandable point to be a bit arrogant. Especially if they're standing on an invincible planet killing battle station.

Characters in the OT made decisions based on what they knew and what their goals were. There are few examples you can point to and simply say "that character was stupid and sucked".
 
Characters in the OT made decisions based on what they knew and what their goals were. There are few examples you can point to and simply say "that character was stupid and sucked".
Now now your effectively stating that bad people can be anything but stupid.
While your not wrong several groups (including bad ones) don't want people to understand this because it generally lets them get away with more shit.
 
Violation of Rule 3: Be Civil, and Ignoring of Moderator's Mod Boxes
violation of rule 3: be civil, and ignoring of moderator's mod boxes Is there not a thread policy in a shiny golden Modpost?
Have there not been enough warnings handed out?

@Jace911 Your Rate/Like privileges have been revoked. Appeal to have them restored, successfully demonstrating you understood why they've been removed. Misuse of the funny rating, and attacking the person rather than the argument, also violates Rule 3: Be Civil. You have been infracted for 25 points, and have been thread-banned for three days.

@hellgodsrus since this is the first time you have committed the Misuse of the Funny Rating, a Staff Notice has been left on your account. Repeated Misuse will lead to harsher sentences.

Let me be clear: Southshore has a disagreeable position. You may feel the need to dogpile him because he's an acceptable enemy in your eyes. The fact of the matter is, he's not an acceptable enemy. There is no such thing as an 'acceptable enemy to attack'. This time, I will add the Thread Policy to the blue banner at the bottom of the post.

The Threadbans levied should dog-piling happen again, against any user, will be met with longer threadbans. If you cannot discuss things properly, then you will accrue longer periods of cooldown to think through your next words with more care.

With that being said, @Southshore , if you complain there's nothing to discuss...then don't discuss. I'm stating this plain and obvious: your posting isn't problematic due to the opinion you have. It's problematic due to the way you approach the discussion. I would suggest you think carefully before posting. You will receive a PM to discuss this further, but a solution will be found.
 
Vague and broad statements about how good villains are all this or that inherently untrue because the moment you think about it there is a dozen or so good villains who will prove you wrong.
Er, but what Southshore is saying here is true. You can't have a good hero story without a good villain. It's a pretty undisputed fact that a man Vs man conflict is only as strong as the antagonist.

What exactly makes a villain strong is a very complex, highly debated topic. Competence does seem to play a major role in determining how strong of a villain they are, but it is far from the only factor. There are many works with incompetent billions that are still enough of a threat to provide a good change for the protagonist. That said, in general incipient villains make for weak villains.
 
Er, but what Southshore is saying here is true. You can't have a good hero story without a good villain. It's a pretty undisputed fact that a man Vs man conflict is only as strong as the antagonist.

What exactly makes a villain strong is a very complex, highly debated topic. Competence does seem to play a major role in determining how strong of a villain they are, but it is far from the only factor. There are many works with incompetent billions that are still enough of a threat to provide a good change for the protagonist. That said, in general incipient villains make for weak villains.
Four words: Gaurdians of the Galaxy.
 
Er, but what Southshore is saying here is true.

Protip: a good villain can be as simple as a memorable look. Vader in ANH isn't particularly impressive except for his look. He lets the stormies do his work, then kills an old man who gave up, then gets clowned on by Han. Tarkin dies because of his doing the dumb but a good performance makes him a good villain.

Kylo Ren is quite well performed in TLJ. He is an excllent villain, because the reasons for his villainy are manifest and well-presented and even somewhat sympathetic. You just don't like him.
 
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Are you sure? His wookiepedia article says multiple times that Ozzel was something of a moron or inept as a military officer.

Applied by our definitions of military education, planning, and hierarchy, no, Ozzel isn't incompetent--or if he is, that particular act ("I want proof, not leads.") does not make him incompetent. It makes him conservative or even overly cautious, but not incompetent. The whole "coming out of hyperspace too close to the system" is a good bit more complicated than "speculation in the face of inconclusive evidence"--in the first case, he and Piett had a completely normal disagreement over a finding, and then the little voice in the head of the ex-monastical maniac in an armored suit told him which one of them was right. In the second case, Ozzel, as a battlegroup commander (apparently, in any case he was the commanding officer aboard the Executor and all the other ships coordinated their movements in turn?) made a "sloppy" exit out of hyerspace which did alert the enemy.

That's a bad thing. It has a strongest case of the charge incompetence. An alerted enemy became more capable of digging in for a siege, deploying their own active defense, and preparing for the invasion. But I haven't personally heard a good explanation as to why he was "too close". What was he supposed to do? What is "further out"? Exit hyperspace behind another planet in the Hoth system? I'm not sure exactly how the Rebels don't detect a gigantic fleet--Ozzel's maneuver, on the other hand, at least seems justifiable in the sense that the closer the fleet emerged to Hoth, the fastest troops can be deployed (we understand at least that much about how the invasion of Hoth worked). The Rebels had an surface-to-orbit cannon that probably would've worked better the further the enemy fleet was (in the sense that they could target more of it at any given time), though it's not immediately clear if the Empire expected that.

It's...doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well, or at least, without further explanaion. We're taking Vader's word for it and, as explained to me in the past, it's worth noting that Vader is not particularly competent a military leader in the standpoint of maintaining his own command, potentially by choice. You don't kill flag officers for (let's assume) a mistake that endangered friendly troops (as if Vader actually cared...more on that in a second), you demote or sack them maybe. You certainly don't kill a flag officer who didn't make a mistake, but was simply confronted by an unanticipated maneuver, then proceeded to personally apologize for it (in other words, Needa). That's completely wasteful. But the thing is, this could all be deliberate: if we assume Vader hates the Empire for making him what he is (well, the Emperor more so, the Empire mostly just made him an incredibly powerful potentate), and he's acting out in response, then his behavior isn't surprising.

Of course, all of this exists against the background formula of the franchise: big evil versus small good. There are always more officers to replace the ones Vader kills on a tantrum (though considering a star destroyer had 36,000 crew by itself, the Executor considerably more, and we saw Vader kill two naval officers...that's not exactly the Moscow Show Trials), because there are always more bad guys. The rebels are always scrappy and outnumbered. Ozzel and Needa are immediately disposable, both in the mind of Vader (the worse person to make supreme commander of the military), and the plot itself. Personally, I find that a little less compelling (imagine if, for example, Vader just killed Governor Tarkin the first time they disagreed...ANH would be worse for it, frankly), but perhaps it just amounts to window dressing anyway. I've tried in my own efforts to write compelling villains (though in their context, "antagonist" would be much more appropriate) because I like the idea of the story's heroes to be challenged by characters with the sort of "dimensional weight" (if that makes sense) they have, at least temporarily, who have as convincing motivations and similarly believable plans of action (instead of "If I make a mistake, my boss kills me."). Vader almost telepathically crushed the larynx of someone who disagreed with him at a war council meeting--either over his current failures (which they were failures, as Rogue One makes abundantly clear via retcon), or his extinct religion (which, by the way, the Emperor himself purged out of existence, and the repudiation of which was orthodox). Tarkin listens to at least one member in that same council disagree and criticize his confidence and...tells him he's wrong, and that's it. He doesn't have him killed or choked. He doesn't care, or if he does care, he doesn't feel the need to resort to personal violence. So that's different at least.

(But even I break from that too occasionally--as Night above me would know, re: "Walther Farkill". You can't do much with a name like that!)
 
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Protip: a good villain can be as simple as a memorable look. Vader in ANH isn't particularly impressive except for his look. He lets the stormies do his work, then kills an old man who gave up, then gets clowned on by Han. Tarkin dies because of his doing the dumb but a good performance makes him a good villain.

Kylo Ren is quite well performed in TLJ. He is an excllent villain, because the reasons for his villainy are manifest and well-presented and even somewhat sympathetic. You just don't like him.

Honest to god, the only difference between Tarkin and Hux is that one was played by and old man and one was played by a young one. Swap in, I dunno, Hugo Weaving for Domhnall Gleason but otherwise leave the character unchanged, and I bet you a ton of people would say "Oh Hux is a great villain!"

No joke, I imagine some people are going to reply to this saying "Actually Weaving would have been perfect!" and miss the point entirely.
 
Honest to god, the only difference between Tarkin and Hux is that one was played by and old man and one was played by a young one. Swap in, I dunno, Hugo Weaving for Domhnall Gleason but otherwise leave the character unchanged, and I bet you a ton of people would say "Oh Hux is a great villain!"

No joke, I imagine some people are going to reply to this saying "Actually Weaving would have been perfect!" and miss the point entirely.

That depends, would he still fall for the whole prank phone call?

Because that's stupid. If Peter Cushing had fallen for a prank phone call in the middle of the Battle of Yavin, that would've made him a laughing stock too.
 
That depends, would he still fall for the whole prank phone call?

Because that's stupid. If Peter Cushing had fallen for a prank phone call in the middle of the Battle of Yavin, that would've made him a laughing stock too.

Bruh have you ever considered the possibility that he's meant to look like a laughing stock? Seriously, I feel like we keep circling this idea, but Hux is supposed to look like shithead, because he's a shithead. TLJ goes out of its way to demonstrate how fucking insane and whacked out the First Order is; they're (as far as I can tell) a deliberate commentary on fans adopting the trappings of the Empire without understanding its deeper implications. Johnson isn't an idiot and neither is Abrams, for that matter (Abrams has his own weaknesses but he's not stupid). Hell, Abrams even said that the First Order was deliberately modeled on neo-Nazi movements and post-WW2 crypto-fascist regimes like Peron's Argentina.

As @Night pointed out, Hux, Snoke, Kylo Ren et al. are actually pretty interesting villains whose motivations are made clear and are compellingly performed. You can dislike them as characters because they're just not to your taste, but trying to frame your personal dislike for them as somehow objective is a non starter.
 
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Bruh have you ever considered the possibility that he's meant to look like a laughing stock? Seriously, I feel like we keep circling this idea, but Hux is supposed to look like shithead, because he's a shithead. TLJ goes out of its way to demonstrate how fucking insane and whacked out the First Order is; they're (as far as I can tell) a deliberate commentary on fans adopting the trappings of the Empire without understanding its deeper implications. Johnson isn't an idiot and nor is Abrams, for that matter (Abrams has his own weaknesses but he's not stupid). Hell, Abrams even said that the First Order was deliberately modeled on neo-Nazi movements and post-WW2 crypto-fascist regimes like Peron's Argentina.

Well, then to answer your question bruh, I definitely wouldn't think he was a great (as in compelling? this has been established as tough to define) villain--really, I don't think my opinion of him would be different at all. I'm not sure if Gleason is more talented than Weaving, I'm not a good judge of that myself.

(Also, and this is unrelated and perhaps better left for discussion elsewhere, but I'd say "crypto-fascism" is a rather poor descriptor of the Peronist/Justicalist era in Argentina, and much more appropriately attributed to, for example, the National Process that actually emerged as a direct response to Peronism after Peron's death, and subsequently purged Peronists from society--though I wouldn't dispute that Peron himself was an admirer of many aspects of Italian and German fascism--especially given the major aspects of Peronist policy towards Jews and other Argentinean minorities, and its deep investment in the era's social justice. Though that could just be Abrams not knowing history.)
 
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It's sort of impossible to judge the military merits of guys like Ozzel and Piett because Star Wars isn't a military drama. The actions of the heroes and villains are not always going to have a firm grounding in military thinking because Lucas and others are not military men. The actual justification for why Vader killed Ozzel is meaningless because the scene doesn't exist for that reason. It's meant to show that Vader is a brutal and unforgiving man, and that the Imperial military is a brutal and unforgiving organization.

That depends, would he still fall for the whole prank phone call?

Because that's stupid. If Peter Cushing had fallen for a prank phone call in the middle of the Battle of Yavin, that would've made him a laughing stock too.
I mean he didn't really fall for anything. Hux answers the call, tries to deliver his big speech then is confused and mystified when Poe keeps blowing him off. I mean he looks like an asshole but that's because he's an asshole.
 
I mean he didn't really fall for anything. Hux answers the call, tries to deliver his big speech then is confused and mystified when Poe keeps blowing him off. I mean he looks like an asshole but that's because he's an asshole.

I've still only seen the film once, for it's entirely possible I don't remember this correctly--but wasn't the point that he was distracted? And since he was distracted, the rest of the crew aboard the ship didn't do anything in turn, which allowed Poe to execute his manuever? And had he not been distracted, Poe wouldn't have (and perhaps even been killed?).

Of course, the subsequent events--the wiping out of most of the bomber force, the arrival of the SS Freudian Nightmare, the really long chase that follows--kind of calls into question how much of a loss or win it was. Poe got what he wanted, or at least I think he did, so I'm leaning towards a victory in that regard, but Poe is criticized for that judgment, shortly later. I mean, according to the above, Hux is demonstrated to be a easily-distracted moron because he is an easily-distracted moron (who was directly in command during that engagement). It's the essence of the character, "he's meant to look like a laughing stock". That doesn't mean he's not an asshole, of course, but it does mean he was stupid and fell for a really odd prank (of course, if prank phone calls actually became a regular occurence in the franchise, it eventually wouldn't feel odd).

 
It's sort of impossible to judge the military merits of guys like Ozzel and Piett because Star Wars isn't a military drama. The actions of the heroes and villains are not always going to have a firm grounding in military thinking because Lucas and others are not military men. The actual justification for why Vader killed Ozzel is meaningless because the scene doesn't exist for that reason. It's meant to show that Vader is a brutal and unforgiving man, and that the Imperial military is a brutal and unforgiving organization.

Bingo. The impulse to treat Star Wars like it's somehow a documentary about made up people will never not be mystifying.
I mean he didn't really fall for anything. Hux answers the call, tries to deliver his big speech then is confused and mystified when Poe keeps blowing him off. I mean he looks like an asshole but that's because he's an asshole.

Exactly, and it's made clear seconds later that Poe was just stalling in order to get his booster online.
 
Are you sure? His wookiepedia article says multiple times that Ozzel was something of a moron or inept as a military officer.

Ah, but you see based on ESB alone, Ozzel's decision making is sound and benefits the Empire. He's made out to be an idiot in the extra media because Vader is...well, Vader. Fans love the idea of Vader brutally executing failures and incompetents left and right, and that's what the fans get. They (fans) also don't like the idea of Vader failing or being wrong, so we get Ozzel who is stupid to make Vader look smart.

It's one of those brain bugs that ended up purveying Star Wars. Vader leaves such a strong impression on people that anything he says must be true. He says Ozzel failed for the last time, and despite never actually see him fail, the audience believes him.
 
It's sort of impossible to judge the military merits of guys like Ozzel and Piett because Star Wars isn't a military drama. The actions of the heroes and villains are not always going to have a firm grounding in military thinking because Lucas and others are not military men.

I disagree. There's enough dialogue and context provided we can at least begin to understand the mindsets of the characters involved. There's not alot of characters saying stupid crap because it sounds dramatic. Ozzel gives reasons why he doesn't think Hoth being the rebel base is conclusive. Vader doesn't give reasons and we're left to wonder if the Force told him.

It's a perfectly valid thing to do. To consider what the characters in a story know and how they make decisions.
 
Honestly it'd be super rewarding if Star Wars 9 opens with her, played by Viola Davis or Angela Bassett, just running down Hux and Ren as the two biggest chucklefucks she's ever seen.

Doesn't her storyline in the EU have her work closely with Hux which was part of the reason the two of them got their positions to begin with, with her protecting Hux from his abusive father and Hux using his influence among the young First Order Stormtroopers to make his father unable to have her killed to seize power for himself?
 
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