Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Honest to god, the only difference between Tarkin and Hux is that one was played by and old man and one was played by a young one. Swap in, I dunno, Hugo Weaving for Domhnall Gleason but otherwise leave the character unchanged, and I bet you a ton of people would say "Oh Hux is a great villain!"

No joke, I imagine some people are going to reply to this saying "Actually Weaving would have been perfect!" and miss the point entirely.
Not really.

The way their characters are presented and the actor's ability do matter, it's why Vince Vaughn's Norman Bates was hated so much. However, most of these contrasts aren't even in the actor's control either, it's how they're written. Hux and Tarkin are just different characters.

Hux is more loud and confrontational to rivals, using passion and zealotry to augment his authority, screaming his order to fire the Starkiller Base (something of a parallel to Nazi theatrics, which means him falling for Poe's prank call kind of makes sense. Theatrics the Nazis used cannot stand effectively to ridicule, which is why The Producers was an effective parody). Hux also has a different dynamic with his department Black Mage, being a bitter rival with him and willing to kill him while he's down and argue for leadership until put in his place (and even after that, he still tries to exert influence by repeating orders Kylo already said).

Tarkin, by contrast, had more a reserved and professional (not to mention arrogant) personality, which didn't even have to advertise how little he cared about the lives of innocents (blatantly going back on his word to spare Leia's home planet before learning he was tricked) all hardly ever raising his voice, politely telling the Death Star gunner to destroy the target when they're ready (though I doubt he ever means it, it'd be pretty silly to think the gunner would just get a cup of coffee after that). He's also more respectful to Vader despite technically outranking him, only really reining him in when he's about to kill another officer in front of him, and even then lets him have a few seconds since the guy was being a bit of a prick.


Ozzel wasn't incompetent. He wanted better intelligence than what the probe droid provided (he's a normal human and doesn't have the Force telling him what to do), and his decision to bring the fleet in close to Hoth was the correct one. Vader rashly concluded that the rebel base was alerted by the appearance of the fleet, when in reality they were leaving because they'd discovered the probe droid. If Ozzel hadn't deployed the fleet in close proximity to Hoth, that would have only given them more time to evacuate.

Piett was not a yes-man. There was an old joke in the EU about Vader's ship being the fast track to promotion due to the frequent misfortune of the command staff. You don't get to command the Executor for over a year without doing something right.
It seemed Ozzel probably got in Vader's bad graces before. Even then, we must assume when Vader said he brought them in too close, it means there is a close enough that he could have gone for. Ozzel was mentioned to have thought he could get the element of surprise if they did so except, as you mentioned, the Rebels already found the probe, which means Ozzel's move only forced them to deploy too close to the planet, leaving them vulnerable to the ion cannon. They could probably have intercepted the evacuation elsewhere in the system. For whatever reason, his move was considered unsound, to the point where the officer reporting to Vader felt he had to mention an excuse for why Ozzel wanted to do it.

Sorry, I saw this before going to bed and it kept me up at night.

I agree with you on Piett though, but I think it is made clear that he is unambitious, which is not a bad thing on the Executor. And because of that, he doesn't take risks like questioning Vader's judgment too much.

Bingo. The impulse to treat Star Wars like it's somehow a documentary about made up people will never not be mystifying.
Funny that, George Lucas' main passion in filmmaking (besides camera work, he kind of felt he would be best as the cameraman for a while) was making avent-garde documentaries, and it kind of reflects in some scenes in Star Wars. In the original cantina scene, none of the aliens are shot to look especially out of the ordinary, they're just a mix of people in the local seedy watery-hole from different worlds than our own. And in the scene where Obi-Wan feels Alderaan's destruction, it is initially shot as a normal room scene (Luke training, the droids playing holo-chess, and Obi-Wan watching on).

It was in Empire that the style of the film editing changed (since some scenes weren't shot for the editor's benefit, but for the director's, Kershner, vision).
 
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It seemed Ozzel probably got in Vader's bad graces before. Even then, we must assume when Vader said he brought them in too close, it means there is a close enough that he could have gone for. Ozzel was mentioned to have thought he could get the element of surprise if they did so except, as you mentioned, the Rebels already found the probe, which means Ozzel's move only forced them to deploy too close to the planet, leaving them vulnerable to the ion cannon. They could probably have intercepted the evacuation elsewhere in the system. For whatever reason, his move was considered unsound, to the point where the officer reporting to Vader felt he had to mention an excuse for why Ozzel wanted to do it.

We're given the context for Ozzel's "failure" during Vader's exchange with Veers. Veers informs him that an energy field has been detected around the planet. From this Vader surmises that the rebels have detected their fleet due to the proximity, something he apparently wished to avoid. He calls Ozzel stupid and clumsy and proceeds to execute him.

No mention is given of any strategic defenses of the rebel base, aside from the shield. The ion cannon and the threat it posed did not factor into Vader's decision to execute Ozzel.

We are left to wonder about how Vader would have attacked Hoth. We can assume he would not have pulled in so close to the planet to avoid detection. Why does he want to avoid detection? An opportunity to better position a blockade? Maybe a long range bombardment to destroy the shield before it could be raised? We really don't know.

There's alot we don't know actually, but what we are given doesn't contradict what we do know about the story and setting, and that's important.

Another example is Han's decision to go out and rescue Luke. We know why Han is going to risk himself for Luke's sake, they are now long time friends and comrades in arms. But the scene leading up to Han's decision is careful to eliminate most of Han's options. The snowspeeders are said to be having mechanical difficulties due to the extreme conditions, so Han can't take that out but more subtly the Falcon itself is taken out of the equation. Right at the beginning of the scene we see Han complaining to Chewie about the maintenance he's performing which has disabled the Falcon.

...There is one little problem with the scene though. It doesn't eliminate the use of X-Wings. Even if the X-Wing is a poor rescue vehicle due to it being a single seater, it'd be much faster than a tauntaun, and has sensors that can detect lifeform readings. If he were alive, Luke would stand out like a roman candle on Hoth's surface. The optimal solution to the problem would be to have Han go out on the tauntaun while a Rogue pilot scouted from the air.

It is not a big gaff though. Obviously an X-Wing would be featured quite prominently later in the film, but up to that point their existence was downplayed, not doing anything spectacular or noteworthy. The fact that the film eliminated the obvious solutions to the problems (snowspeeder which would be featured heavily during the battle and of course the Falcon) made the less obvious 3rd option even more so.

It's not perfect writing, but it does a good enough job that practically no one would notice.

Not at all like the Sequel Trilogy where if you think at all everything unravels.
 
Protip: a good villain can be as simple as a memorable look. Vader in ANH isn't particularly impressive except for his look. He lets the stormies do his work, then kills an old man who gave up, then gets clowned on by Han. Tarkin dies because of his doing the dumb but a good performance makes him a good villain.

Kylo Ren is quite well performed in TLJ. He is an excellent villain, because the reasons for his villainy are manifest and well-presented and even somewhat sympathetic. You just don't like him.
Actually, Kylo was one of my favorite parts of The Last Jedi, along with the cinematography and settings. I could talk a lot more on why exactly he works as an exception to this normal rule, but basically, Kylo is a weak villain who across the Sequel Trilogy is clearly growing into a strong villain. Because of this, the roles of protagonist and antagonist are flipped -- Kylo is acting like the protagonist struggling to overcome the problems created by the antagonist, Rey.

Incidentally, this is one of the two reasons why the claim that Rey is a Mary Sue gained a lot of traction after The Last Jedi. As the antagonist to Kylo, Rey's skill and power were pretty much set to make her a constant and credible threat to Kylo. Rey does not have to struggle to overcome Kylo, as her role in the story is to pose an obstacle to him.
 
Actually, Kylo was one of my favorite parts of The Last Jedi, along with the cinematography and settings. I could talk a lot more on why exactly he works as an exception to this normal rule, but basically, Kylo is a weak villain who across the Sequel Trilogy is clearly growing into a strong villain. Because of this, the roles of protagonist and antagonist are flipped -- Kylo is acting like the protagonist struggling to overcome the problems created by the antagonist, Rey.

Incidentally, this is one of the two reasons why the claim that Rey is a Mary Sue gained a lot of traction after The Last Jedi. As the antagonist to Kylo, Rey's skill and power were pretty much set to make her a constant and credible threat to Kylo. Rey does not have to struggle to overcome Kylo, as her role in the story is to pose an obstacle to him.

I reiterate my desire for Kylo backstory to reveal that he fell for being weak in the Force and resenting that. Would have made a wonderful contrast with prodigy Rey, one is born powerful but is also a true noble soul, the other is weak but resents the hero's strength.
 
I reiterate my desire for Kylo backstory to reveal that he fell for being weak in the Force and resenting that. Would have made a wonderful contrast with prodigy Rey, one is born powerful but is also a truly noble soul, the other is weak but resents the hero's strength.
Seconded. Kylo having been weak in the Force despite being heir to the Skywalker lineage would explain so much of why he fell, as well as his obsession with Darth Vader. Constantly trying to live up to his family legacy, but failing at every single end would do wonders in making him more relatable and show why he felt the need to seek out the Dark Side for power as well as explain why he feels the need to go to great lengths to "earn more Dark Side points" and get stronger.

Only for this nobody Rey to basically come in and completely wreck him in just raw talent and power.

Though I do differ on the statement that Rey is a truly noble soul, she definitely has the potential to be one but she clearly is walking a fine line between the light and the dark and I feel that she still has to earn that title of a True Hero.
 
Seconded. Kylo having been weak in the Force despite being heir to the Skywalker lineage would explain so much of why he fell, as well as his obsession with Darth Vader. Constantly trying to live up to his family legacy, but failing at every single end would do wonders in making him more relatable and show why he felt the need to seek out the Dark Side for power as well as explain why he feels the need to go to great lengths to "earn more Dark Side points" and get stronger.

Only for this nobody Rey to basically come in and completely wreck him in just raw talent and power.

Though I do differ on the statement that Rey is a truly noble soul, she definitely has the potential to be one but she clearly is walking a fine line between the light and the dark and I feel that she still has to earn that title of a True Hero.

You don't need to be bad at space magic to feel pressured to live up to your family name. Kylo's arc in the films works perfectly fine, and making him weak in the Force also robs Luke's story of its poingancy. Luke's arc begins when he recognizes that he could have another Annakin on his hands, and he, for the briefest of seconds, considers killing Ben before he falls. At the same time, this feeds into Luke's reluctance to train Rey (he fucked up before, why try again?).

If Ben's weak in the Force, there's no reason for Han, Luke, and Leia to be concerned in the first place and create the feedback loop that lead to his fall in the first place. It absolves Han, Luke, and Leia from any responsibility in Ben's fall, which is half of what makes Kylo an interesting villain in the first place.
 
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It also seems weird to make strength in the Force be reliant on any sort of inborn genetic skill. Something like the Force should be determined on a less temporal or physical measure and instead be about mental training and spiritual enlightenment.
 
It also seems weird to make strength in the Force be reliant on any sort of inborn genetic skill. Something like the Force should be determined on a less temporal or physical measure and instead be about mental training and spiritual enlightenment.
I mean, we've known it had a genetic component since Luke Skywalker had inborn talent with it enough to make photon torpedoes turn 90 degrees on literally ten minutes of training entirely because his father had been a jedi, something from A New Hope.
 
I mean, we've known it had a genetic component since Luke Skywalker had inborn talent with it enough to make photon torpedoes turn 90 degrees on literally ten minutes of training entirely because his father had been a jedi, something from A New Hope.

On the other hand, the force, especially that early in the saga, is literally "clap your hands and believe in fairies." IIRC the novel has obi Wan offering to teach Han of all people.

Basically the force is a very thinly disguised metaphor for God and/or the will of the author. Frankly Zahns mil fi "force is d&d style magic including power nullfiers" is precisely the wrong way to take it, the Force is supposed to be mystical and entirely belief/cosmic driven as a result of enlightenment and faith, not "I have magic blood/have trained relentlessly" stuff.

Yodas point in ESB is less that Luke, and Luke alone, is strong enough to lift an x wing if he wants to, but that hes still too attached to "common sense" materialism to really believe, deep down, that levitating an x wing is *possible.* it was a very "Thomas asking about Jesus's scars" moment.
 
You don't need to be bad at space magic to feel pressured to live up to your family name. Kylo's arc in the films works perfectly fine, and making him weak in the Force also robs Luke's story of its poingancy. Luke's arc begins when he recognizes that he could have another Annakin on his hands, and he, for the briefest of seconds, considers killing Ben before he falls. At the same time, this feeds into Luke's reluctance to train Rey (he fucked up before, why try again?).

If Ben's weak in the Force, there's no reason for Han, Luke, and Leia to be concerned in the first place and crate the feedback loop that lead to his fall in the first place. It absolves Han, Luke, and Leia from any responsibility in Ben's fall, which is half of what makes Kylo an interesting villain in the first place.

I disagree. I think the narrative would have been better (and more interesting) if Luke et al started out thinking like that- blaming themselves, Snoke, bad parenting, poor teaching, or whatever- but eventually coming to terms with the understanding that Kylo Ren's fall was Kylo Ren's fault, and his redemption has to happen on his terms or not at all- emphasizing that Kylo Ren is evil because he made a choice to be evil, and to remain evil even when presented with the offer of mercy/forgiveness from his family.
 
but eventually coming to terms with the understanding that Kylo Ren's fall was Kylo Ren's fault,

I dunno why people seem to have so much trouble with nuance but Luke makes a pretty clear statement that while he failed Ben, everything Kylo Ren has done remains Kylo Ren's fault. It's why he makes that rather pointed comment about striking him down. "And if you strike me down, I will always be with you. Just like your father."

Like...the positions are not mutually exclusive. "I fucked up, but then you proceeded to destroy everything as a result and you didn't have to do that. You could have asked wtf I was doing at least."
 
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I disagree. I think the narrative would have been better (and more interesting) if Luke et al started out thinking like that- blaming themselves, Snoke, bad parenting, poor teaching, or whatever- but eventually coming to terms with the understanding that Kylo Ren's fall was Kylo Ren's fault, and his redemption has to happen on his terms or not at all- emphasizing that Kylo Ren is evil because he made a choice to be evil, and to remain evil even when presented with the offer of mercy/forgiveness from his family.

This is ill conceived and sucks for two reasons:

1. It turns the themes of the film to total mush. The entire point of the last Jedi is that the problems of the future are driven by the mistakes of the past, which you have to take responsibility for and learn from. If you just have Luke dismiss his role in Kylo's fall you pretty much destroy his character act so that he learns nothing.

2. Why Kylo probably can't be redeemed outside of him being the baddie is made brutally clear after the throne room duel scene. Where he tries to get Rey to join him basically by using straight up abuser tactics implying that she's worthless due to her lack of a background and trying to posit himself as the only source of validation in her life. It's not so much the movie hammering in the fact that he's evil than it is fucking stabbing you with it with a rusty old knife.

That's the actual moment where Kylo truly becomes the villain instead of just a baddie in a stupid mask, when he blows past empathy and uses his emotional connection to tap into their trauma to break them down so they can control them for the sake of his own validation.

EDIT: Like, no, seriously. That one scene is the most BRUTAL FUCKING THING you can see in a family sci Fi movie and I want to put it in a museum under the exhibit "How to realistically turn your conflicted fuckboi antivillain into a fucking monster in ten seconds or less."
 
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2. Why Kylo probably can't be redeemed outside of him being the baddie is made brutally clear after the throne room duel scene. Where he tries to get Rey to join him basically by using straight up abuser tactics implying that she's worthless due to her lack of a background and trying to posit himself as the only source of validation in her life. It's not so much the movie hammering in the fact that he's evil than it is fucking stabbing you with it with a rusty old knife.

That's the actual moment where Kylo truly becomes the villain instead of just a baddie in a stupid mask, when he blows past empathy and uses his emotional connection to tap into their trauma to break them down so they can control them for the sake of his own validation.

EDIT: Like, no, seriously. That one scene is the most BRUTAL FUCKING THING you can see in a family sci Fi movie and I want to put it in a museum under the exhibit "How to realistically turn your conflicted fuckboi antivillain into a fucking monster in ten seconds or less."
That's going to make their romance in the next part very weird, and if you don't think Reylo is end game then are you in for a bad time. It's Hollywood baby and if there's one thing Hollywood loves it's the villainous bad boy being redeemed by the pure-of-heart good girl.
 
I mean if it weren't JJ Abrams writing the next one again I could very easily see a non-hack director deciding to take the Reylo angle and have it twist the Anaking/Padme dynamic from the Prequel trilogy where Rey realized Ren is actually fucking irredeemable and rather than try to save this toxic relationship cuts him off entirely - literally in this case. :V

But as mentioned, Abrams is a hack writer so I can very easily see him going the tired Bad Boy Redemption arc.
 
That's going to make their romance in the next part very weird, and if you don't think Reylo is end game then are you in for a bad time. It's Hollywood baby and if there's one thing Hollywood loves it's the villainous bad boy being redeemed by the pure-of-heart good girl.

I somehow doubt that since Abrams is co-writing the movie and he doesn't seem to be a big fan of the whole "actually writing the characters and their relationships thing". I fully expect him to just have Kylo be the baddie and just ignore his toxic history with Rey. If Kylo gets redeemed he'll probably do it at the last minute, maybe share a kiss with Rey and then die.

Now, if Colin Trevorrow was still in the writers seat then I would expect the movie to just become a complete trashfire and not only disregard what a horrible person Kylo was to Rey in the last movie, but also have him treat Rey like shit in the movie and have it be treated as acceptable by the narrative.
 
EDIT: Like, no, seriously. That one scene is the most BRUTAL FUCKING THING you can see in a family sci Fi movie and I want to put it in a museum under the exhibit "How to realistically turn your conflicted fuckboi antivillain into a fucking monster in ten seconds or less."

It doesn't belong in Star Wars.
 
It doesn't belong in Star Wars.

But when a man strangles his pregant wife, or Evil Robot Man cuts off his sons hand it's okay.

We can have evil characters brutalize their family and loved ones, but God forbid it ever actually get real in an actual human way. I don't want real relatable human villainy in my Star Wars.

But y'know, I also want Star Wars to be taken seriously as a super serial space epic too...
 
tlj raped my fields salted my women and burned my childhood all at the same time and im pretty sure rian johnson took my lunch money once too
 
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