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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Heavy W. Guy said:
There's a part from Episode I where Padme is completely shocked to discover that enslavement is still an extant practise on Tattooine. So it's not even a case of "People are aware of the bad situation but simply choose to do nothing" but rather "People aren't even aware of the situation to start with".
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On this, I actually see people using this fact to criticize the Jedi often when getting the info for that Force documentary/explanation/rant I've been meaning to do, and it reminds me of the old debate on why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker.

While I don't have an answer for that, SFDebris (who has also done a documentary on the making of Star Wars ep 1-7) argued perhaps it's not Batman's job to kill The Joker but rather society's job. Batman often just captures Joker and brings him to the proper authorities (or, barring that, make sure they're in a position to be captured) so they can do justice. But despite the clear ludicrous danger Joker represents, the frequency of his escape from mental health institutions and the admission that he would have received the death penalty several times over, the onus is always on Batman to kill him.

As for slavery and The Hutts, I am not sure yet. The Jedi seem to just keep to the Republic and maintain peace within it, with Hutt Space seen as a distinct political entity it seems, despite its criminal nature. The Republic, it might be argued should see to the external shenanigans of the Hutts, or they would if the various Senators weren't corrupt and possibly being given 20 credits under the table. The Jedi and/or local anti-piracy and slavery authorities probably keep watch, as to prevent people being abducted (though since the Twi'lek slave trade is still popular, we can probably conclude space is a very big place to look for missing/exploited people).

As for Padme, she's most likely just sheltered, not familiar too much with the sweaty crime pits under every galactic arm.

Tl;Dr: It's probably not the Jedi's problem to go after every slave and every Hutt when Sith Lords are their specialty.
 
VolantRedX said:
But again it would lessen the impact of Luke being a nobody farm boy from some dead end rock becoming a hero. Star Wars wasn't intended to be some worldbuilding exercise or a hard sci-fi economic study of human nature. It's just a fairy tale in space. You're not supposed to think this hard about it. Of course, there are some flaws if you try to apply a bunch of real-world logic to this make-believe story, the same can be said of Snow White or Lord of the Rings. It literally opens with a version "Once upon a Time, in a Land Far Away".
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Oh I know it is "once upon a time" with Luke living in his peaceful peasant village wtih dreams of adventure and princesses and an important, unknown heritage.

I was just commenting on how utterly silly it is to complain that TFA is retreading the same story when the only thing Star Wars has ever been - apart from that bit with the Vong no one likes - is retreading that kind of story in a setting that is a lightyear wide and an inch deep. And the Vong shite didn't really break the retread either as the EU carried on the main Light/Dark, Skywalker related cycle like the Tyranid-scale invasion from hell never happened.

As far as I can tell at a glance f'ing 40k Khorne has more of an opinion on "new paradigm, better do something about these intergalactic scum on my turf" than the EU Darksiders do.
 
VolantRedX said:
Except literally every work in Star Wars has been about pretty much the same exact war waged by the same characters or their descendents. Like the ST is actually better than most of the EU in that regard since it's not about two halves of the same family fighting forever.

Honestly I think a lot of the ST unwillingness to slow down and spend tons of time worldbuilding is because the Prequels did that constantly and they're not so much films as more an argument for the destruction of the very idea of fiction. It's an over corection, and one that largely works because well, it doesn't actually matter how the setting came about, just that it exists and it works on some pretty basic themes and ideas.
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*Shrug*. That's neither here nor there. Taken without the EU, the prequel trilogy and OT together do not create the impression that every generation has to fight the same war. And if the point of scrapping the EU was starting over... then... I understand even less why criticisms of the sequel trilogy should be measured against whether they hold against the EU.

And the thing is it does matter how worlds come to be. If the sequel trilogy were interested in actually understanding how everything failed (again), and where everyone's good intentions went wrong, it'd be easier to quell the sick feeling of, "nothing matters" when TFA's story starts going and you realize everything is literally the same.

The sequel trilogy is clearly not interested in telling a story about the way we lose, misunderstand or misconstrue history at our peril, but it could be. It's not interested in talking about how institutions built from scratch still carry structural oppression that people bring into it, which hampers their ability to fix things... but it could be. It's not interested in what people didn't understand about dismantling evil before... but it could be. It was better positioned than most other big franchises to do this type of exploration because we all got to see the history with our own eyes.

It's not silly to ask for these things, to ask franchises to grow beyond "shallow" beginnings. It's not silly to imagine what could be done with a franchise, or to call a sellout set-up ... a sellout. It's silly not to, just for the sake of defending the films that we got as they are.

Kodiak said:
The EU long, long ago descended into almost 40k levels of "this is all pointless, nothing ever changes - at least not for the better." TFA retreading the OT for real political reasons (discredited Leia, not actually a great political figure, can't convince the New Republic to treat Space ISIS seriously) is less bad than some of the cosmic "lol screwed again" the EU runs on. It's not even an offense, it's an improvement.

Really, there's no reason Star Wars as a setting is the way it is. Why does something like Tatooine even exist? Because every rich person and their kids on Coruscant are assholes who can't be bothered to make the galaxy better?
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None of those reasons are even in the movie though! And again... why should the EU be the stick we measure against?
 
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keios said:
The sequel trilogy is clearly not interested in telling a story about the way we lose, misunderstand or misconstrue history at our peril
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Yes. Absolutely. The story where the central antagonist's entire motivation is a misguided obsession with literally killing the past due to a tragic mistake on the part of the previous generation that was provoked in part by the fear of past and future threats obviously has no interest in the relevance of history. You are most definitely not tunnel-visioning on worldbuilding concerns so hard that you aren't noticing the first thing about the story's characters and how their narrative is all about exactly this, just on a personal level rather the structural one you've decided to care about.
 
Quantumsheep said:
Yes. Absolutely. The story where the central antagonist's entire motivation is a misguided obsession with literally killing the past due to a tragic mistake on the part of the previous generation that was provoked in part by the fear of past and future threats obviously has no interest in the relevance of history. You are most definitely not tunnel-visioning on worldbuilding concerns so hard that you aren't noticing the first thing about the story's characters and how their narrative is all about exactly this, just on a personal level rather the structural one you've decided to care about.
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I think it's pretty obvious I was talking about structutal history? I don't know what to say... like...

edit: this isn't a worldbuilding concern, tbh. it's a thematic one.
 
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Broken Base said:
Like I'll say those points are better than when he gets into the nitty gritty, but still not very good because I feel like they fundamentally look at the series as What They Want It To Be rather than What It is. Like I think Night and Chronologist basically hit on this, most of those criticisms can be aimed, to one degree or another, directly at the older films as well, including the OT. People have simply crafted this Star Wars in their head that is a Hard Detailed Sci-Fi Epic because it's what they want to believe the sci-fi/fantasy film they saw was, rather than the kinda silly super soft sci-fi adventure that took direct inspiration from old cheesy serials. So he expects all these things to be met that, more or less, are basically never met in a Star Wars film, or practically so.
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There's a pretty great image for this that was made a while ago, after TLJ was released.



Where does this come from? The older fandom, of which a lot of us (me included, I am fucking 38 years old in September and I can still remember all the ad breaks in my VHS copy of TESB even when they don't appear) are members. There's various reasons why, but a lot of it is down to what you just talked about - they liked a fun space adventure and as they grew up - aided with a healthy dose of EU that leaned hard into "how many proton torpedoes can dance on the head of a Star Destroyer shield generator" type stories - they wanted it to grow up with them and be as 'serious' as they think they became.
 
keios said:
None of those reasons are even in the movie though! And again... why should the EU be the stick we measure against?
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Well it's a virtual certainty that excluding the pure racist/misogynist crowd, most of the people who complain about the sequel trilogy are doing so from a "why can't it be more like the EU?" Like all the criticism of Luke Skywalker as seen in TLJ is relative the EU versions of him. Film Luke was a twenty-something at the end of his ROTJ story; there's no expectation whatsoever on how his life would have gone three decades on. There's certainly no expectation that he should succeed at creating a new Jedi Order with a lot of Jedi running around bringing peace and harmony to the galaxy. He's a warrior who knows basically nothing when ROTJ ends and certainly isn't a doctrinaire Jedi because he only beats Vader by going Dark Side but without losing it completely - not a good Jedi move there. Oh look, what went wrong with confronting Ben? Same damn thing.

If someone is picturing Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, they're working with the EU, period. For OT Luke, the Jedi Order isn't even a defined thing. He wears black, Force Chokes mooks and when things go to hell, gets angry. Luke doesn't exist in the prequel trilogy where we see "classic" Jedi and no one from that era survived besides Yoda and Obi-Wan and Yoda told him basically nothing beyond the general "fear...anger...hate...suffering."
 
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Kodiak said:
For OT Luke, the Jedi Order isn't even a defined thing.
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And to be honest, it seems likely that was the point. They saw the Order collapse under the weight of its own failures in more than one way. Their ability to teach Luke was not necessarily hampered by their deaths, either, as we see Ben sit down and do some instruction after he's dead because Force Ghost shenanigans. They don't seem to have, from Yoda's appearance, so the blank slate was probably intentional.

Then again, for all we actually know Luke did track down enough information about the old Order to replicate it up until the whoopsie.
 
Vympel said:
Where does this come from? The older fandom, of which a lot of us (me included, I am fucking 38 years old in September and I can still remember all the ad breaks in my VHS copy of TESB even when they don't appear) are members. There's various reasons why, but a lot of it is down to what you just talked about - they liked a fun space adventure and as they grew up - aided with a healthy dose of EU that leaned hard into "how many proton torpedoes can dance on the head of a Star Destroyer shield generator" type stories - they wanted it to grow up with them and be as 'serious' as they think they became.
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I've actually got an anectode that illustrates your point by not adhering to it. My father is, by any account, a textbook Star Wars fan. He was a kid when the movies first came out, re-watched them endlessly on VHS, hated both the Special Edition (Han Shot First, damnit!) and the Prequels (Jar Jar Binks is a cgi Stepin Fetchit with a Jamaican accent, how did Lucas get that approved?!) when they each came out, the works. Thing is? He liked the Sequels. Sure, he didn't love them, he thought TFA was a bit samey and was a bit confused by TLJ at times, but overall he liked both films.

So, what's the reason for this difference in opinion? Well, the one place my father differed from your example was that he was basically unaware of the EU. His memories of Star Wars were the Original Trilogy, and it stayed that way until the Special Editions and the Prequels came out, whereupon he tried to purge the memories from his mind. He did not go into the Sequels with any expectations whatsoever, in contrast to all those fans who had consumed the EU and expected a whole citations list of references, and came out having enjoyed a new Star Wars movie. Hell, he was shocked when I told him about how divisive opinions were about it.
 
Kodiak said:
Well it's a virtual certainty that excluding the pure racist/misogynist crowd, most of the people who complain about the sequel trilogy are doing so from a "why can't it be more like the EU?" Like all the criticism of Luke Skywalker as seen in TLJ is relative the EU versions of him. Film Luke was a twenty-something at the end of his ROTJ story; there's no expectation whatsoever on how his life would have gone three decades on. There's certainly no expectation that he should succeed at creating a new Jedi Order with a lot of Jedi running around bringing peace and harmony to the galaxy. He's a warrior who knows basically nothing when ROTJ ends and certainly isn't a doctrinaire Jedi because he only beats Vader by going Dark Side but without losing it completely - not a good Jedi move there. Oh look, what went wrong with confronting Ben? Same damn thing.

If someone is picturing Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, they're working with the EU, period. For OT Luke, the Jedi Order isn't even a defined thing. He wears black, Force Chokes mooks and when things go to hell, gets angry. Luke doesn't exist in the prequel trilogy where we see "classic" Jedi and no one from that era survived besides Yoda and Obi-Wan and Yoda told him basically nothing beyond the general "fear...anger...hate...suffering."
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Jedi Master Luke is not something I have been talking about? I in fact have complaints about his section of the movie but they're all thematic, about how the exploration is left half done.

.. and like *shrug* I don't know what to say. I know nothing about the EU. My objections to TFA stem from it being a cash grab and JJ Abrams being awful at character development. My objections to TLJ stem mostly from it being cheap on earning its ideas and poor in following through on meaning. Every time it tries to say something, it ends up saying something much worse. When you engage with the new trilogy thematically, it doesn't just fall apart, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth, from the soulless reboot cash grab and mystery boxes of TFA, the disavowal of the Star Wars' old blatant political leanings in a time where the function of tyranny, bigotry, and authoritarian are more relevant than ever, and in ways much scarier than BIG GUNS AND SHIPS, to, in TLJ, the assertion that the patriarchy (within both us and Poe) is simply a matter of men not bowing to hierarachy... what was half-baked in the prequels in execution has been replaced with what just seems like a complete lack of willigness to finish thoughts, with the idea that slick execution will hide that all away. If you just hint at HAVING IDEAS, if you perform the aeathetics of having grand themes and ideas, apparently, that's enough... :x even if those themes fall apart when you look harder.

*sigh i guess I'm angry too because apparently in order to criticize the films I have to do tons of work to say what I'm not saying since sexist assholes have poisoned the space where criticism of these movies happens.
 
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I already mentioned on this thread on how, while making a whimsical space adventure, he tried building the first film as a documentary in the sense that nothing was shot to be especially out of the ordinary (and Lucas was really interested in avant-garde documentaries of the time).

He also REALLY wanted to make his own anti-Vietnam War film and put bits of that in every Star Wars movie (it's the reason we had to deal with Ewoks for years), it's just Apocalypse Now had yet to be released and become the quintessential NAM movie. The closest movie to getting the NAM sentiment George wanted is probably Solo, with the Battle of Mimban.
 
UnlosingRanger said:


One moment you are eating breakfast with your Uncle and Aunt the next they're charcoal. Fun for the whole family not a serious moment to be had!
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You realize that Harry Potter, not the later books that got 'adult', but the very first silly-ass book, opens right after the brutal murder of the protagonists parents?

Lots of silly, fun adventure stories kill off the protagonists parents early on. This does not a super duper serial sci fi epic make.
 
Reveen said:
You realize that Harry Potter, not the later books that got 'adult', but the very first silly-ass book, opens right after the brutal murder of the protagonists parents?

Lots of silly, fun adventure stories kill off the protagonists parents early on. This does not a super duper serial sci fi epic make.
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Maybe don't compare such vague deaths to someone being cooked alive by thermal energy and dying as a charred skeleton. Not all murder is the same.
Your comparison also fails because Harry potter took itself fairly seriously as well. The only fun is to YOU, not the people in verse. People seem to have forgotten this.
The REPUBLIC GALACTICA is dead.
Ruthless trader barons,
driven by greed and the
lust for power, have replaced
enlightenment with oppression,
and "rule by the people"
with the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE.

Until the tragic Holy Rebellion of "06",
the respected JEDI BENDU OF ASHLA
were the most powerful warriors
in the Universe.
For a hundred thousand years,
generations of Jedi Bendu knights
learned the ways of the mysterious
FORCE OF OTHERS, and acted as the
guardians of peace and justice
in the REPUBLIC. Now these legendary
warriors are all but extinct.
One by one they have been hunted down
and destroyed by a ferocious
rival sect of mercenary warriors:
THE BLACK KNIGHTS OF THE SITH.

It is a period of civil wars.
The EMPIRE is crumbling into
lawless barbarism throughout
the million worlds of the galaxy.
From the celestial equator to
the farthest reaches of the GREAT RIFT,
seventy small solar systems have
united in a common war against
the tyranny of the Empire.
Under the command of a mighty
Jedi warrior known as THE STARKILLER,
the REBEL ALLIANCE has won a crushing
victory over the deadly Imperial Star Fleet.
The Empire knows that one more such defeat
will bring a thousand more solar systems
into the rebellion, and Imperial control
of the Outlands could be lost forever...
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The people that go "It's a kids film" or "It's just a silly sci-fi it isn't serious" weren't paying attention. Star Wars has roots in adult content such as the 7 samurai as well as things like Flash Gordon. The Flash Gordon that appeals to adults as a comic in a sci-fi setting. It was ALWAYS serious. Even things like Little Orphan Annie are fairly serious. The least serious starwars has ever been was episode 1 and the sequels. That's about it. I'm not even sure what ranks first there episode 1 or TLJ. I imagine most of anyone here needs to read the old drafts.
The Star Wars – Rough Draft – Starkiller
Here are some highlights
A harsh gale blows across the bleak grey surface of the Fourth Moon. The leaden sky presses down on a lone figure, ANNIKIN STARKILLER, a tall, heavy-set boy of eighteen. He slowly makes his way across the canyon floor. The heavy winds whip at him and make the going extremely difficult. His face is covered by a breath mask and goggles. He stops for a second to adjust the shoulder strap on his chrome multiplelaser rifle. Something in the sky catches his eye, and he instictively grabs a pair of electrobinoculars from his belt. He stands transfixed for a few moments, studying the heavens, then turns and rushes back in the direction from which he came.
3. SUPPLY HUT – FOURTH MOON – UTAPAU
A spacecraft, half buried in the dust, rests next to the remains of an abandoned supply shack. Annikin makes his way across the colorless landscape and rushes into the crumbling building. The interior of the hut is shabby, but manages to abate the howling winds. Seated in front of a thermoheater are Annikin's father, KANE, and his young brother, DEAK. Kane is a large, burly man,
wearing the distinctive robes of a JEDI. Deak is ten years old, with dusty blond hair and a large scratch on his cheek. Annikin slams the door and removes his gear. His ruggedly handsome face is caked with many layers of dust.
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Kane moves to the fallen black knight, and studies him carefully. Annikin, still a little wobbly from the whole experience, attempts to stand. Kane sees his dead son Deak, and goes to him. He lifts him into his arms and begins to weep. Annikin stands bewildered, watching his father cradle his dead brother.
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Get out of my way, boy, before I grind you into the surface…(etc.)
As the dauntless Starkiller approaches the general, the guards stop in bewilderment as General Skywalker rushes up to the warrior and embraces him. The two Jedi warriors laugh jubilantly and slap one another, as the aides and bureaucrats look on in amazement.
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Montross goes back to his station and a few moments later, Starkiller is paged over the P.A. system. The general waits, watching the big board. Eventually, Starkiller stumbles out of an enclosed computer closet, fastening his pants and tucking in his tunic. A moment later, the cute female aide rather sheepishly exits the computer closet. She is also in the process of putting her uniform back together. Starkiller rushes up to the general and snaps to attention.
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STARKILLER
Settle down!
When the door to the speeder is opened, Mina starts in, and Starkiller stops her.
STARKILLER
You must stay. Here, take the Crest.
Starkiller rips the royal crest from the princess' neck, and hands it to the startled handmaiden. The old women gasp in horror. The princess starts hitting Starkiller with little result.
PRINCESS
Mina's not staying…I'm not leaving her. You can't….
Starkiller punches her square on the jaw and knocks her cold. Mina is panic stricken, one of the old women faints, and another starts for Starkiller with a large staff.
STARKILLER
She'll be all right. I'm taking her to safety…
as ordered. You will wear the crest and continue as before.
The authority of Starkiller's voice stops the old lady. He places the princess into the speeder, and maneuvers it out of the courtyard. Mina puts on the crest as the speeder races away from the academy.
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UnlosingRanger said:


One moment you are eating breakfast with your Uncle and Aunt the next they're charcoal. Fun for the whole family not a serious moment to be had!
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:rolleyes:I didn't say there weren't any serious moments in the movies, for fuck's sake. That doesn't make them mil-sci-fi grimdark space documentaries, which is what too many overgrown babies who make tweets like this want them to be because they think universal things like levity, jokes and just straight up things children respond to are only for children.

But sure, keep telling yourself freaking Star Wars is not a family friendly light-hearted adventure film, but actually super-serious adult fare because it's not a straight two hours of gags and irreverence
 
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Reveen said:
Why do they need to be a convincing villain? The entire point of the conflict being a bunch of political economic bullshit is that the Jedi aren't heroes who save the day. They were the Republics goon squad.
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From a solely plot-based perspective that makes sense. But from a standpoint of engagement, it's boring. A story needs to be compelling in order to be both meaningful and entertaining. You really don't even need to alter the basic trajectory or concept, but you just need to make it more concise and also more meaningful. A helpless planet that is the victim of aggression and is completely ignored by an uncaring galaxy is perfectly resonant with modern audiences. But that gets rather lost in the weeds.
 
UnlosingRanger said:
The people that go "It's a kids film" or "It's just a silly sci-fi it isn't serious" weren't paying attention. Star Wars has roots in adult content such as the 7 samurai as well as things like Flash Gordon. The Flash Gordon that appeals to adults as a comic in a sci-fi setting. It was ALWAYS serious. Even things like Little Orphan Annie are fairly serious. The least serious starwars has ever been was episode 1 and the sequels. That's about it. I'm not even sure what ranks first there episode 1 or TLJ. I imagine most of anyone here needs to read the old drafts.
The Star Wars – Rough Draft – Starkiller
Here are some highlights
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They're early drafts for a reason.

Still doesn't make Star Wars a super serious mil scifi thing.
 
UnlosingRanger said:


One moment you are eating breakfast with your Uncle and Aunt the next they're charcoal. Fun for the whole family not a serious moment to be had!
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name one time in the next four and a half films after this where Aunt Beru and Uncle Ben were ever mentioned again

there's a vast difference between the way a war movie treats death and the way a pulp adventure treats death.
 
Hakazin said:
Thing is? He liked the Sequels. Sure, he didn't love them, he thought TFA was a bit samey and was a bit confused by TLJ at times, but overall he liked both films.
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You know I have a counter-example to you, my father who never read any EU and was himself a massive Star Wars fan who saw the original trilogy in theaters watched the The Force Awakens and fell asleep because it was boring and uncompelling for him.
 
Jace911 said:
name one time in the next four and a half films after this where Aunt Beru and Uncle Ben were ever mentioned again

there's a vast difference between the way a war movie treats death and the way a pulp adventure treats death.
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I always got the impression that it was a painful memory that Luke preferred not to talk about. Silence is a pretty common response to traumatic loss.

Actually, Luke in particular experiences the death of a lot of friends over the course of the series but we almost never hear mention of them.

One could argue that he's avoiding a painful memory on purpose and trying in his own misguided way to stay strong to fight the Empire or focus on his Jedi training.
 
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