RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[ArchAIngel]

The only use for a shield would be if it could prevent Snorri from being YOTE. Otherwise, an axe, as Barak Azamar is just... completely unbreakable. Like, at all.

Maybe an anti-magic shield, but we have the Banner for that.

 

[JamesShazbond]

Zharrgal already does fantastic anti-infantry AOE Fire damage on a field wide scale in addition to being a great anti-armor weapon in a 1v1. So I wouldn't say we're really lacking in "Anti-Horde" here but then again I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for in an "Anti-Horde" weapon.

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Zharrgal's melee attacks have immense force and armor-piercing, which makes it more than suitable for getting into brawls with anything we could reasonably expect to handle in melee; we're not going to be chumping out greater daemons, but no one gets to do that. Zharrgal has AoE attacks, but they're a bit awkward, requiring ground slams. I was thinking about something that could just turn a horde of trash into red ribbons with every swing, keep Snorri from getting buried under. If we wanted to seriously gear up for fighting the top-tier killers, a shield might have better value than an axe; Barak Azamar makes us very tough and keeps us from getting worn down, but the damage output of the real monsters out there is absolutely insane.

Antimagic, I assume, will be the role of Snorri's upgraded talisman, should he ever get around to it/be able to reuse his wife's cloak for a new piece.

 

[Remake]

I have a question out of a left field.
I read someone mentioning slayers have not been established. If Snorri lives till then is there any chance he can influence their formation? You know instead of seeking death they seek to be useful to dawi like hearthguardians. With how easily dwarves get dishonored and all the slayers from blacksmiths, craftdwarfs etc seeking death is an absolute waste of life and probably hastened the end of golden age.
Rangers and that sort can seek combat to aid dwarf holds but the rest can simply forego material wealth, favors etc and simply make stuff for dawi who need them like Snorri does until their death. That will probably restore their honor more than killing some beast far away from the holds ever would.

 

[tri2]

The only use for a shield would be if it could prevent Snorri from being YOTE. Otherwise, an axe, as Barak Azamar is just... completely unbreakable. Like, at all.

Maybe an anti-magic shield, but we have the Banner for that.

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i feel like shield would be most...suitable for the final piece of the set.
we have armor that protects us and keeps us standing, no matter what
we have hammer that attacks the enemy and keeps our allies attacking as well, no matter what
now we need something that protects those behind us as well, no matter what

 

[Dark as Silver]

Glittering beacon compressed into an Mrune seems like a good choice for a runestaff. Also purification + spellbreaking + spell eating could act to channel magic from enemy spells into Barak Azamar and Zharrgal.


Ok so I think that this is definitely a case of each dwarfs own interpretation of the rule. A conservative probably would throw out our Mjollnir idea. For a radical I think it depends, heavily on how much info Snorri has going in, if he has enough info to guess at how the effect was done (either through seeing the runes on the shield or through trading for the combo or just being that damn good that he can tell the runes purely from the effect) then merely replicating it without trying to alter the effect in anyway would break the rule. But if he doesn't know how it was done and instead just tries throwing together some runes which he thinks will have a similar effect that's ok even if it does end up as perfect replica.

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I feel Glittering beacon is too niche to be a useful cast. 'Snorri casts Glittering Beacon, this allows him to cast Glittering Beacon with an additional +5'. And they're meant to be more offensively oriented so our ideal would probably be a compressed Hailmantle or Infernoes.

I think we're reading copy in different senses, they say don't copy expect as apprentices, which I think gives insight on what they mean. Apprentices copy their masters work literally stroke for stroke in order to learn. I think the radical version is don't do literally that and the conservative version is don't copy pieces of work wholesale.
And... we're not, even by your definition, we don't really know the effect. We just saw a big projection of a force field, we don't know the runes, we are using it to make a totally different shield (It will be dwarf sized not Gronti sized)

EDIT: Mechanically you would replace a weapon combo or shield (armour)combo for another banner or talismanic combo. :^)

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I figured that was the point of them. I think generally we'd rather replace a talisman for a second banner, but this is the next best way to double up on AOE buffs and stuff.

So if an Odd Place had allowed somebody to substitute Gromril for a Rune Ingredient, that actually would have been a worthwhile discovery. It's just... we got obscenely lucky early on, being covered fully with Gromril, so...

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The benefit of Gomril is that that line of metal is literally the only structural material that improves runes.
We actually use Gomril as a rune ingredient very rarely, in MGromril and as optional improvements for the Smednir and Thungni runes.

 

[Alratan]

It seems optimal to save favour for when the number of actions doesn't line up with the optimal action allocation based on Snorri's traits.

 

[dpara]

Regarding the set we have Offense and Defense pretty well in hand. So I think the third part should be Buff/Utility.

[Lantern of the Runeherder] Masterrune of Glittering Beacon, Rune of Warding, Rune of Brotherhood

Generally I also like the sound of Earth, Wind and Fire as a trifecta if someone has a good idea for that.

 

[Jreengus]

The only use for a shield would be if it could prevent Snorri from being YOTE. Otherwise, an axe, as Barak Azamar is just... completely unbreakable. Like, at all.

Maybe an anti-magic shield, but we have the Banner for that.

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Well mechanically Snorri is only at 5 wounds with 1 regen per 2 rounds so he's not completely invulnerable and would benefit from something increasing his wounds or regen rate. Looking at the armour runes we have some combination of MValaya, spite and something else could potentially improve his regen up to 1 per round while punishing enemies that do hit him. I'm not sure it's worth it and I'd prefer an axe or rune staff but I don't think a shield would be worthless.

I feel Glittering beacon is too niche to be a useful cast. 'Snorri casts Glittering Beacon, this allows him to cast Glittering Beacon with an additional +5'. And they're meant to be more offensively oriented so our ideal would probably be a compressed Hailmantle or Infernoes.

I think we're reading copy in different senses, they say don't copy expect as apprentices, which I think gives insight on what they mean. Apprentices copy their masters work literally stroke for stroke in order to learn. I think the radical version is don't do literally that and the conservative version is don't copy pieces of work wholesale.
And... we're not, even by your definition, we don't really know the effect. We just saw a big projection of a force field, we don't know the runes, we are using it to make a totally different shield (It will be dwarf sized not Gronti sized)


I figured that was the point of them. I think generally we'd rather replace a talisman for a second banner, but this is the next best way to double up on AOE buffs and stuff.

The benefit of Gomril is that that line of metal is literally the only structural material that improves runes.
We actually use Gomril as a rune ingredient very rarely, in MGromril and as optional improvements for the Smednir and Thungni runes.

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My thought process for Mbeacon is that it would buff the strength of any other castables Snorri has on the staff so put it on there with W&R + another castable and Snorri and other runesmiths get a general buff plus snorri gets a bigger buff to the runes he's casting. For the rule of pride stuff I don't think we really disagree much there and I'm sure Soulcake will tell us if any any plans break Snorri's interpetation.

 

[Dutch]

To throw an idea out there for our off-hand. A Runestaff aimed at drawing out and perhaps channelling Deep Magic in the surrounding area, buffing runes or allow others to more easily use the stuff. Fits the theme of the armor set, fits another part of Snorri's character (The Guardian, The Smith, The Gift Giver) and both interesting and something new.

 

[Alratan]

Given where we are, I'd quite like a sword which can be swapped for a chisel to form two overlapping sets. Our hammer is for both offence and utility, bridging the two, while a sword is purely about destruction, while a chisel is just about creation.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Well mechanically Snorri is only at 5 wounds with 1 regen per 2 rounds so he's not completely invulnerable and would benefit from something increasing his wounds or regen rate. Looking at the armour runes we have some combination of MValaya, spite and something else could potentially improve his regen up to 1 per round while punishing enemies that do hit him. I'm not sure it's worth it and I'd prefer an axe or rune staff but I don't think a shield would be worthless.

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Technically wasn't the shield proposal for the champion of the Hearthguard so they can better protect randos they are aiding and the rest of the shield wall?
The whole Snorri is/isn't tough enough may be irrelevant.

Feels wasteful to use a MRune to buff two ordinary runes, especially since that sounds awkward to synergise if the other two are doing something completely different to Beacon.
Also, arguing technicalities but Beacon doesn't buff castables, it buffs the magic skill of the caster casting the castable. Sorry if thats something you know but I see people who seem to think it just makes all runes stronger enough that I want to stress that.
And yeah copying argument has run its course.

 

[Garlak]

... You know, maybe rather than being lucky enough to make a rune set with each new item, maybe we just...

Create each item with a rider of "channeling Barak Azamar's energy in order to do X."

The intent being pretty simple: we want Barak Azamar to make all our items better.

Therefore, we make all our items with some form or usage of energy. Something which can be improved by dipping into Barak Azamar.

So that, in the end, even if we never form multiple trios of rune combos -- and note, I think somebody said that item combos can be made out of things with more than 3 items? i.e. you can have a set that is made out of 5 items total, rather than just from 3? -- the point would be that... Barak Azamar would make each of our individual items powered up and give them a super-mode.

So an axe with a Master Rune of Lightning or Cold, channeling Barak Azamar. A Banner of the Ancestors, empowered by BA. A Talisman with... something, I don't know. And so on, and so forth.

... Heck.

Maybe Snorri could make a personal Gronti mount. Or a Gronti war-cart. And have that draw from BA, too. Ride or drive it around everywhere.

To throw an idea out there for our off-hand. A Runestaff aimed at drawing out and perhaps channelling Deep Magic in the surrounding area, buff runes or allow others to more easily use the stuff. Fits the theme of the armor set, fits another part of Snorri's character (The Guardian, The Smith, The Gift Giver) and both interesting and something new.

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If only we knew the Master Rune of Balance. That would be an excellent thing to put on the Runestaff, or on a Banner.

Mountainsouled. Makerstrike. And then, something that represents Dwarfs, stone, and the deep magic standing against enemy magic. A Runestaff with MBalance which drew on Barak Azamar, to form a shield against the enemy or a counter to enemy magics, or which could remove enemy buffs. Nevertheless, the idea is straightforward; taking deep magic's energy, and directly throwing that energy to some usage. Perhaps using it for esoteric defense or esoteric utility of some sort.

... Perhaps a Banner in the end too? A Banner which drew from the deep magic, and channeled it into the Ancestors. Like the Ancestral Aegis, except drawing on Barak Azamar instead of using Spellbreaking.

The only question is, what Rune would you use to achieve that kind of transference? ... Would just 'Transference' do? It didn't quite feel that way, as 'Heat + Force + Transference' seemed like 'Heat up, and then transfer that' whereas the kind of transference we are looking for here is 'Take from Barak Azamar, and empower the Ancestors protection.' Then again, none of the 3 Runes on Zharrgal had anything about directly drawing from Barak Azamar, but they managed to do so anyway... ...which leads me to believe that a good trio of Runes, two of them Ancestor Runes, might achieve the same effect. Huh. Or perhaps even a trio of Ancestor Runes; if the item were pitched as "drawing from Barak Azamar to..." rather than just listing 3 runes and hope we get the effect.

 

[TehChron]

Or, and stop me if this sounds crazy

See what crazy silliness a Barak Azamar-based Runic Combo Set bonus is like in terms of Snorri being able to draw upon and manipulate Deep Magic energies, given what Zharrgal alone is capable of thanks to that connection?

 

[dpara]

Feels wasteful to use a MRune to buff two ordinary runes, especially since that sounds awkward to synergise if the other two are doing something completely different to Beacon.
Also, arguing technicalities but Beacon doesn't buff castables, it buffs the magic skill of the caster casting the castable. Sorry if thats something you know but I see people who seem to think it just makes all runes stronger enough that I want to stress that.

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Are you in part responding to "[Lantern of the Runeherder] Masterrune of Glittering Beacon, Rune of Warding, Rune of Brotherhood " ?
I am following Snorris Runeherder trait which gives all other runesmiths +5, which I feel is pretty similar what Glittering Beacon does, Rune of Warding gives Magic Resist/ boosts the innate MR. I think on the tabletop the Brotherhood rune only boosts the wearer but I think it'd valid here to treat it as boosting others with the skill of the wearer.

..did some doublechecking, Rune of Sanctuary fits way better than Warding;

[Lantern of the Runeherder] Masterrune of Glittering Beacon, Rune of Sanctuary, Rune of Brotherhood
it even reads as a sentence "The Glittering Realm is the Sanctuary of our Brotherhood"

.. if that doesn't draw on the deep magic to boost our runesmith buddies, I'm gonna eat my hat!

 

[Garlak]

You know, just remembered an obvious upgrade path we can take. So, uh, you know how our Adamant Smelter draws on the Winds of Magic?

... Yeah, uh. We have an obvious alternative now, don't we? I mean, this idea came up long long ago of course; way back when we just had the Greedy Troll's heart alone and hadn't used it yet, and only had the description of it drawing deep energy. People were suggesting using it in the creation of an Adamant Smelter. It's just, I don't think we ever revisited that idea, after we made Barak Azamar. Granted, it wouldn't be as effective, as it'd require Snorri wearing BA and being in his workshop. But for those times when Snorri holes himself up in his workshop, it'll charge the smelter a bit faster.

I wonder what a Talisman -- or a Runestaff -- with Master Rune of Purification + Thungni + Smednir would do? ... And would we need a secondary Talisman with resistance to fire, to survive it, as it might even be capable of melting the Adamant we wear?

Hmm... What about the Master Rune of Spite?

You know, since we are now too tough to be easily hurt... and absorb attacks like nothing, not using a shield and relying entirely on our armor... but can still be pinballed by blows... ... Why not make the enemy pay for that? And to make use of our fighting 'style' of 'just take it on the chin'?

An MSpite Talisman could be pretty good for Snorri. Especially given how he fights, which is "don't give a single fuck for enemy attacks and just trust your armor to handle it." Anyone have some good ideas for an MSpite talisman combo?

Or, @soulcake, would the Master Rune of Spite be the sort of thing that doesn't work well with a superb defense -- i.e. if you're not being hurt, you're not returning any damage? (But if so, it's kind of a questionable rune then... Why would you go for MSpite over more defense instead? Dwarfs love being armored up heavily, so, a Master Rune based around the idea that your armor isn't going to be able to tank a blow... ... Well, there's some sorts who it'll still be useful for, but...)

... Perhaps a Banner in the end too? A Banner which drew from the deep magic

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Having the Master Rune of Vigor would be nice, if we could do that. Imagine: us passing on Snorri's vitality and toughness to everyone around him, channeled from BA.

"One dwarf is as stone." "A lot of dwarfs, are as a mountain."

Another good usage would be a Master Rune of Fear. (Or MDismay, but. Banner versus Talisman.) Something that would make use of the fact that Snorri is an unstoppable terminator who can't be killed. Something to make enemies run away from.

It's an effect that we currently don't have. And an aspect of combat that we don't utilize yet -- i.e. the morale side of it. We just sort of let it happen, I mean; we don't have a potent Rune that works its runemagic to do it.

Or, and stop me if this sounds crazy

See what crazy silliness a Barak Azamar-based Runic Combo Set bonus is like in terms of Snorri being able to draw upon and manipulate Deep Magic energies, given what Zharrgal alone is capable of thanks to that connection?

Click to shrink...

Yeah if we (i.e. the posters) are good enough to manage that, of course we do that. That's Plan A-or-A-one-half. Plan B-or-something is "In case we can't figure something out, and just go for making a really good axe or Banner, then at least let's try to make it draw from BA's deep magic channel..."

 

[Jreengus]

Technically wasn't the shield proposal for the champion of the Hearthguard so they can better protect randos they are aiding and the rest of the shield wall?
The whole Snorri is/isn't tough enough may be irrelevant.

Feels wasteful to use a MRune to buff two ordinary runes, especially since that sounds awkward to synergise if the other two are doing something completely different to Beacon.
Also, arguing technicalities but Beacon doesn't buff castables, it buffs the magic skill of the caster casting the castable. Sorry if thats something you know but I see people who seem to think it just makes all runes stronger enough that I want to stress that.
And yeah copying argument has run its course.

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There were two shield discussions, one was for the hearthguard which I support. The other was about making one for Snorri, while I don't support a shield for Snorri I don't think Barak Azamar makes the entire idea of a shield for him obsolete.

 

[BungieONI]

Zharrgal's melee attacks have immense force and armor-piercing, which makes it more than suitable for getting into brawls with anything we could reasonably expect to handle in melee; we're not going to be chumping out greater daemons, but no one gets to do that. Zharrgal has AoE attacks, but they're a bit awkward, requiring ground slams. I was thinking about something that could just turn a horde of trash into red ribbons with every swing, keep Snorri from getting buried under. If we wanted to seriously gear up for fighting the top-tier killers, a shield might have better value than an axe; Barak Azamar makes us very tough and keeps us from getting worn down, but the damage output of the real monsters out there is absolutely insane.

Antimagic, I assume, will be the role of Snorri's upgraded talisman, should he ever get around to it/be able to reuse his wife's cloak for a new piece.

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It does not require ground slams as it can release bursts of flame on demand, though frankly the distinction is entirely fluff, he actually makes a note of being careful not to destabilize parts of Dum and switching over to that. Snorri's huge bonuses to mechanical combat means he mulches hordes by default anyway.

 

[Alratan]

Before we can put the Master Rune of Purification on a weapon (or weapon-like tool?), we need to understand it more. Unfortunately, I think that's never going to happen. In large part, I think this is because of the formatting of turn options. If we had Understand a Master Rune - Purification as its own separate option in turn votes I think there's be much greater pressure to do so, in the same way as if there was simply a single generic 'Research Material' option rather than multiple specific ones those would be seen as much lower priority.

 

[soulcake]

Or, @soulcake, would the Master Rune of Spite be the sort of thing that doesn't work well with a superb defense -- i.e. if you're not being hurt, you're not returning any damage? (But if so, it's kind of a questionable rune then... Why would you go for MSpite over more defense instead? Dwarfs love being armored up heavily, so, a Master Rune based around the idea that your armor isn't going to be able to tank a blow... ... Well, there's some sorts who it'll still be useful for, but...)

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Because it was designed for gates and other such fortifications originally. Things that could take a lot of punishment and Dwarfs wouldn't get hurt to need proccing. It's just that Dwarfs being Dwarfs, are rather happy to have a final spiteful attack in the event that they end up taking damage/die. A good enough tactic considering the average Dwarf is indeed pretty tough, and a wound that hurts them, thrown back at twice fold strength is probably far more dangerous to the things/person that managed to hit them. Beastmen, Elves, Humans and stuff like that.

Its not sensible if you don't get hurt in the first place, and Dwarfs would prefer to not get hurt at all either obviously. But if you do get hit, you might as well hurt them back just as much, preferably more so.

 

[soul ice]

Combat wise between his armor and hammer along with wrath and ruin Snorri has close and mid range covered. What he needs is something long range that can go from end that one guy to wreck that area. How about we compress meteor fall and then try to make a staff that shoots shaped explosions of varying magnitude.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Are you in part responding to "[Lantern of the Runeherder] Masterrune of Glittering Beacon, Rune of Warding, Rune of Brotherhood " ?
I am following Snorris Runeherder trait which gives all other runesmiths +5, which I feel is pretty similar what Glittering Beacon does, Rune of Warding gives Magic Resist/ boosts the innate MR. I think on the tabletop the Brotherhood rune only boosts the wearer but I think it'd valid here to treat it as boosting others with the skill of the wearer.

..did some doublechecking, Rune of Sanctuary fits way better than Warding;

[Lantern of the Runeherder] Masterrune of Glittering Beacon, Rune of Sanctuary, Rune of Brotherhood
it even reads as a sentence "The Glittering Realm is the Sanctuary of our Brotherhood"

.. if that doesn't draw on the deep magic to boost our runesmith buddies, I'm gonna eat my hat!

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That was specifically to what Jreengus said.
I don't mind your design as a banner but Runestaffs feel like they ought to be more active. And we've probably got lower hanging fruit if we want a buffing banner. Even in this age there aren't a huge number of Runesmiths.

I wonder what a Talisman -- or a Runestaff -- with Master Rune of Purification + Thungni + Smednir would do? ... And would we need a secondary Talisman with resistance to fire, to survive it, as it might even be capable of melting the Adamant we wear?

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Hard to say, as banners and talismans both Thungni and Smednir have results of passively make your craft better. As Beacon showed, Thungni and presumably Smedir will have the definition of what that craft is altered by the context of other Runes. Since we genuinely don't understand what the Rune of Purification does we can't say for sure. My best guess is that it removes metaphysical impurities. Optimistically this might be a way burning chaos corruption in people wearing the talisman, but I don't think it would combo with Thungni and Smednir.

There were two shield discussions, one was for the hearthguard which I support. The other was about making one for Snorri, while I don't support a shield for Snorri I don't think Barak Azamar makes the entire idea of a shield for him obsolete.

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Thanks for clarifying

Before we can put the Master Rune of Purification on a weapon (or weapon-like tool?), we need to understand it more. Unfortunately, I think that's never going to happen. In large part, I think this is because of the formatting of turn options. If we had Understand a Master Rune - Purification as its own separate option in turn votes I think there's be much greater pressure to do so, in the same way as if there was simply a single generic 'Research Material' option rather than multiple specific ones those would be seen as much lower priority.

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Runestaffs (which I assume was the plan) use banner or talismanicf instead of weapons.

Combat wise between his armor and hammer along with wrath and ruin Snorri has close and mid range covered. What he needs is something long range that can go from end that one guy to wreck that area. How about we compress meteor fall and then try to make a staff that shoots shaped explosions of varying magnitude.

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Wrong rune type unless you also want to understand and hope that allows us to use it in more categories.
If you really want something like that, we probably want to look at Lightfright which seems to be our only long range rune that isn't tied to a siege engine or crossbow (and doesn't require getting punched to activate it) and see if we can add Fire and stuff to that.

 

[Jreengus]

Combat wise between his armor and hammer along with wrath and ruin Snorri has close and mid range covered. What he needs is something long range that can go from end that one guy to wreck that area. How about we compress meteor fall and then try to make a staff that shoots shaped explosions of varying magnitude.

Click to shrink...

If it's extreme range you're after can I interest you in Bakaz a Branakroki? It would basically turn Snorri into a one dwarf bolt thrower with ice and lightning to boot.

 

[Shard]

Snorri should get a Talisman or Banner for his last item in his set.

 

[Jreengus]

Snorri should get a Talisman or Banner for his last item in his set.

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3 Items is the minimum number for a set not the maximum, he absolutely should fill all the slots.

 

[Jrin]

Should go for a long range weapon like a rocket launcher with homing missiles or mortar type since Snorri did waste time moving away from his goals in order to bail out his allies whenever they're in danger for example Dwalin and Valma in the Dum Campaign.