I personally believe that the best option, for now, is to obtain more knowledge on the world and the different types of mages, especially Warlocks (If i'm not wrong we don't even have a precise definition for what warlocks are, do we?), and we should also get more info on the Demons of this plane, since they could be what we're dealing with and being informed about dangers is a good idea anyway.
So i would not ask others about the voices, but still keep an ear out for possible people that deal with this stuff.
It is possible that they are local, yes.
I think being MtG thing being more liekly because Blake is MtG mage, so until she learns more about local magic i will assume most things about her are MtG, but i could be wrong.
This does not fix the issue of not having enough knowledge to actually provide to any potential experts, or potentially not being able to trust the said experts. Best case scenario is that the voices are not dangerous and nothing bad happens when we go seeking help.
Worst case scenario involves a mob of angry villagers with pitchforks.
We can ask for information without telling people we hear voices yet (ask about how they handle demonic possession, whether exorcism is a common profession or a specialist thing, as arbitrary examples) and we can find trusted people and vet them before we tell them anything. I still think that mostly solves any concerns?
I just don't want to go right up to a guild and tell them anything straight away. At least I don't see any reason to do it in a guild that we don't know anyone in and have no real ties too? We want to try and get help from people who have an interest in helping us, which is probably going to be allies.
People asked the same questions 'How are you even going to find an expert?', etc, over and over again after possible methods were painstakingly explained.
So i went and read through every post of yours since the last update.
And i can't find this.
You have suggested consulting an expert and finding a library. (i am in favor of one of those)
You have not provided the means or a method of doing so beyond hiring a mage from a guild, or ways to make sure we can trust them other than "well they want money". nor do you seem to have adequate response to why the expert might not be helpfull as things are right now.
From your vote one of the methods seems to be to randomly ask a bunch of mage fans for information?
And all your arguments seem to lean heavily on setting knowledge that has, repeatedly, been stated to be unreliable because of different time, place, and AU nature of the quest.
If you do not wish to disguss this, i am willing to not quote you on the subject any further (provided you actually do not bring it up either), but i do not think you have been as clear or painstaking as you think you are.
People asked the same questions 'How are you even going to find an expert?', etc, over and over again after possible methods were painstakingly explained. That tells me people did not read. If they did read and found the argument unconvincing, they would point out the purported flaws in the argument. But that is not what they did. They simply repeated the question as though I never spoke to it before.
They attacked conditional statements or statements with the nuance of possibility ('if it is a demonic possession, then perhaps there's something like an exorcist out there, among other options') as definite statements. ('Going off to an exorcist right now is premature'). That again tells me they did not read. They glossed over what I wrote, found something they thought they could attack, and leapt on it in a shallow attempt to try to say something that they thought would make their stance sound better.
The best way to deal with this sort of thing is to add people to an ignore list and move on, not debate with them. Discussion is utterly pointless if people aren't interested in discussion.
Hi. It's your boy, the one who dropped this a few pages ago.
You haven't actually persuaded anyone in this conversation as to the validity of your views... including the author of the quest.
I'd seriously consider that and why something like half a dozen people have all engaged you to try to dislodge you from your views. Might be useful to you if you want to have more success next time.
And as an aside: you might want to focus on the fact that you've repeatedly declared that just talking to the Black entity is too dangerous to do before consulting local wizards for insight about it.
It's been repeatedly pointed out that local wizards cannot and will not qualify, for multiple reasons, as any kind of expert; and that in fact the mere effort of making that request might in fact be more dangerous than simply communicating with the entity.
You complain that no one is acknowledging your points, yet your points are reiterations with zero acknowledgment of anything anyone has said to you.
You are now frustrated that no one is listening to you, and are frustrated that no one is "letting it go" with you having the last word.
Well... honestly? You should be frustrated. Multiple people -- including the thread author -- have tried to help you make your position more robust. You've responded by just repeating it again as though no one had understood or acknowledged you.
Thing is: we all understood what you were saying. We all axknowledged it -- to the point of restating your position and asking you to confirm we had it right.
You haven't addressed any rebuttals to your position, nor have you confirmed anyone who asked if they understood you correctly as to whether they did or didn't.
This has frustrated you, yeah, and it's utterly failed to persuade anyone here. I know, honestly and sincerely, how difficult it can be to dislodge yourself from moments like this. But you really might want to come back to this conversation in a few days and take a look into figuring out why you so completely failed to get your message to anyone. It really might help you in the future.
I'd seriously consider that and why something like half a dozen people have all engaged you to try to dislodge you from your views. Might be useful to you if you want to have more success next time.
The number of people making an argument has nothing to do with whether that argument is well supported or correct. This is the ad populum fallacy. The only determination that matters is actual analysis. It's even fairly common for whole groups of people to make exactly the same mistake, so a number of people agreeing with one another isn't something you can rely on in the sense of 'well, all those people agree, so it's probably true'. You just have to do the work.
And as an aside: you might want to focus on the fact that you've repeatedly declared that just talking to the Black entity is too dangerous to do before consulting local wizards for insight about it.
I have already addressed the differing risk calculation here. For all we know the entity is a lovecraftian horror that can cause corruption or madness or death by mere communication. Hiring a wizard in a guide somewhere does not bear the same degree of utterly unknown risks. It has some risks, but they can be mitigated (by investigating attitudes before approaching someone, for example) by being far more knowable.
It's been repeatedly pointed out that local wizards cannot and will not qualify, for multiple reasons, as any kind of expert; and that in fact the mere effort of making that request might in fact be more dangerous than simply communicating with the entity.
There are two things wrong with this. First, we don't know what most of the local wizards specialize in, so you're making a factual statement with surety where we have none. Second, why would we need to talk to anyone local? What is this criticism even aimed at? I never said anything like 'we need to talk to local expert X right now'. We have the luxury of going to a big guild with lots of experts and resources, or asking a generalist to see if they know anyone who might be a specialist in an area likely to be helpful. Those are two of the things I have actually suggested. If you want to criticize my positions, start with those, thank you.
This is just plain untrue. I've engaged with points and criticism at great length. When those points are reiterations, it's because someone raised a question I'd already addressed as though I'd never addressed it, forcing me to reiterate it again. Just like you're forcing me to do right now. Thanks.
Well... honestly? You should be frustrated. Multiple people -- including the thread author -- have tried to help you make your position more robust. You've responded by just repeating it again as though no one had understood or acknowledged you.
Thing is: we all understood what you were saying. We all axknowledged it -- to the point of restating your position and asking you to confirm we had it right.
Also untrue. An important thing to understand about debates is that they basically never persuade anyone involved in the debate. Few people have the ability to remain open to being convinced, they get attached to their positions too tightly. In a debate audience is the real target.
Anyway, I've got other things to do, and this discussion has utterly sapped any interest I had in the quest.
Point of order, a lovecraftian entity that can put coherent poetry in our head would already own us. If we're that far gone either this quest is over, or we're now playing the eldritch abomination in a Catgirl suite.
So i went and read through every post of yours since the last update.
And i can't find this.
You have suggested consulting an expert and finding a library. (i am in favor of one of those)
You have not provided the means or a method of doing so beyond hiring a mage from a guild, or ways to make sure we can trust them other than "well they want money". nor do you seem to have adequate response to why the expert might not be helpfull as things are right now.
The major problem that he has consistently failed to acknowledge is that Blake has never been to a setting where demonic possession is even a concept.
RWBY doesn't even have demons or "spiritual" beings (aside from the Brothers) and furthermore at the point in which Blake first Walked away, she would be in the 99.999% majority of the population there that believes there's no such thing as magic; and being a demon in Fairy Tale marks you as a physical being with a specific type of magical energy, which is usually but not necessarily affiliated with Dark Guilds.
There's no reason to expect any such experts to exist, and going around asking Guild Wizards about what you should do when you hear voices in your head is... not a good idea.
The number of people making an argument has nothing to do with whether that argument is well supported or correct. This is the ad populum fallacy. The only determination that matters is actual analysis. It's even fairly common for whole groups of people to make exactly the same mistake, so a number of people agreeing with one another isn't something you can rely on in the sense of 'well, all those people agree, so it's probably true'. You just have to do the work.
I have already addressed the differing risk calculation here. For all we know the entity is a lovecraftian horror that can cause corruption or madness or death by mere communication. Hiring a wizard in a guide somewhere does not bear the same degree of utterly unknown risks. It has some risks, but they can be mitigated (by investigating attitudes before approaching someone, for example) by being far more knowable.
There are two things wrong with this. First, we don't know what most of the local wizards specialize in, so you're making a factual statement with surety where we have none. Second, why would we need to talk to anyone local? What is this criticism even aimed at? I never said anything like 'we need to talk to local expert X right now'. We have the luxury of going to a big guild with lots of experts and resources, or asking a generalist to see if they know anyone who might be a specialist in an area likely to be helpful. Those are two of the things I have actually suggested. If you want to criticize my positions, start with those, thank you.
This is just plain untrue. I've engaged with points and criticism at great length. When those points are reiterations, it's because someone raised a question I'd already addressed as though I'd never addressed it, forcing me to reiterate it again. Just like you're forcing me to do right now. Thanks.
This has no relation to what actually happened.
Also untrue. An important thing to understand about debates is that they basically never persuade anyone involved in the debate. Few people have the ability to remain open to being convinced, they get attached to their positions too tightly. In a debate audience is the real target.
Anyway, I've got other things to do, and this discussion has utterly sapped any interest I had in the quest.
As part of the audience, you were actually helpful as a sounding board for others to refine their explanations against, but i think you need to get out of that mindset, competitive debating is really not the same as doing so in real life, and if you aren't open to the possibility of being wrong you are being disingenuous, trying to discredit your opponents instead of improving your own argument is how you get a cheap victory with a inferior position.
[X] Are there any additional Guilds that they'd recommend actively avoiding? [X] Can they go into more detail about Liquid Horizon and Sylph Symphony? Compare between them, benefits of joining and why would someone study lost magic over magic tools, or vice-versa.
[x] Do they happen to know what the general reception for Warlocks has been? There's a big difference between 'legal' and 'accepted.' [X] Does Lion's Pride have infighting or other political nonsense among their different sub-factions?
"You didn't seem all that bothered by Raleigh being a Warlock," Blake interjected. "Is that indicative of the usual post-legalization sentiment? I know there's a big difference between 'legal' and 'accepted.'"
The bickering boys seemed to accept the change in subject with only a bit more glaring.
"Not really," Giuseppe replied. "Most Warlocks are still viewed with distrust; there's a big assumption of prior wrongdoing since so many of them showed up out of the woodwork after legalization. The rise of full-fledged Warlock Guilds hasn't helped any. Raleigh largely got a pass since she actually has something resembling a harmless history and shares a Guild with what the uneducated think is an angel. Angels aligned with death are too violent to hide what they are, and the rest are generally associated with protection, divine favor, that sort of thing."
"Warlocks can choose not to use their magics on people," Valter added. "But the fact is that most of those magics are related to death, weakness, or something disgusting like full-fledged necromancy. Most other magics don't incentivize hurting people; a self-centered fire mage might be a bit careless with flame, but a self-centered Warlock might be discreetly killing people for personal power—and there are plenty of that kind of Warlock in Dark Guilds."
Blake released a "hmm" of acknowledgement.
"I'm guessing that Warlock Guilds would be ones to avoid, then?" Blake asked.
"Definitely," Valter agreed. "The ones I know about are Black Bottle, Dawning Dusk, and Trifold Taboo. The rumors about them might be wrong, but why take the chance? Anyone joining or teaming with them will probably get a bad rep, too."
"That holds true for basically all Dark and 'Unaffiliated' Guilds," Giuseppe added. "Most people don't want them involved with legal jobs. As a general rule, you'll also want to avoid dedicated treasure-finding Guilds; they're not paid to care about people. And, uh, Burning Briars went Dark recently, so I'd steer clear of that whole mess."
"That isn't as helpful without specific emblems or names to watch out for," Blake commented. "I appreciate the guideline, however. Speaking of which, you mentioned that Lion's Pride has pretty much everything; are there enough Warlocks there for them to qualify as a political group? For that matter, does Lion's Pride have political groups?"
"…Not… really?" Valter hazarded. "To both. I'd be surprised if they had more than three or four Warlocks, and most of Lion's Pride doesn't get involved with politics. Some inter-Guild rivalries, sure, but nothing that lends itself to sabotage or major infighting."
"I'll eat a hat if there isn't somebody trying to keep a wary eye on those Warlocks," Giuseppe added. "You're going to have some paranoid people in any large group, and Lion's Pride is certainly large enough to qualify."
That's an extra strike against them, Blake avoided saying aloud.
"You didn't go into nearly as much detail for Liquid Horizon or Sylph Symphony," the Faunus pointed out. "If the Sylphs are worried about people stealing their secrets, I feel like that would rule out major collaboration. Similarly, information wants to spread and knowledge seems like it could easily escape the Guild. With that in mind, what are the actual benefits of joining either of them?"
Valter and Giuseppe shared a look before Valter bowed his head in acknowledgement.
"That seems like it'd be comparing dogs and birds," Giuseppe admitted. "The thing about Lost Magic—well, think 'powerful, but volatile.' The ancients didn't have our centuries of development or the components and tricks used to make spells safer and easier to handle. It isn't uncommon for Lost Magics to come with side effects; modern healing ensures that the biggest health issues are usually caught before they could become chronic, but that still leaves other oddities. Growing gills, half-intelligent spells that can only be directed rather than truly controlled, a sudden need for more or less sunlight, strange spell prices such as one's own hair, or even just being so powerful that the user's body can't handle it.
"Liquid Horizon is trying to avoid most of the worse downsides, but they simply can't remove all of them. They would've sold and popularized those magics if they could manage that, thus removing the 'Lost' part. Still, they do have a point about the possible rewards: Liquid Horizon has some ludicrously powerful Wizards, and their knowledge-for-knowledge policy makes them much less attached to their secrets than you'd often expect.
"Sylph Symphony arguably goes in the totally opposite direction. They do actually have collaboration and stuff like apprenticeships, but they're largely oriented toward making money, glory, fame, or making the lives of customers easier. Magic Tools are all about reliable results and knowing exactly how something works. They trade power for reliability and the potential for anyone to use their Magic Tools, but the structure required and lack of affinities for specific magics mean they're inherently less efficient and less powerful than a comparably skilled Wizard would be."
"That's not quite true," Valter interjected. "I mean, the efficiency bit is accurate for Tools that are truly usable by anyone, but some magical items use their stored power to aid and enhance casting of a specific type of magic. Even powerhouses can use those."
"That's fair," Giuseppe admitted. "There's nothing stopping people from just buying those from Sylph Symphony, though; that's not a real reason to join."
Valter shook his head.
"I mean, it kinda is? Even if the materials for enhancers are often expensive, I'm sure that a big part of the cost is because of the skill that went into their creation. Plus, there are combat Artificers whose entire combat style is built around the retrieval and use of their Tools. 'Less efficient' doesn't matter so much when you're throwing over a month's worth of magic at your opponent while they only have what's in their own body."
"Magic from your own body is free, though," Giuseppe persisted. "Artifice requires degrading intermediary materials whenever you need to do anything. I admit that you're right about some items having the potential to be terrifying—just look at how many places were killed by their own ill-conceived artifacts rather than Lost Magic–"
"Hey, yeah," Valter interrupted. "Don't those kinda inherently mean that Artifice can reach terrifying levels of power?"
Giuseppe rolled his eyes.
"Maybe, but that's basically all the downsides of Lost Magic in object form. Powerful, but unstable. She might as well just join Liquid Horizon at that point; she'd even have a better chance of actually finding such examples to work from."
Blake frowned thoughtfully. She might not need Liquid Horizon membership to go ruin-delving. She knew that the plane with ancient superweapons was largely focused on alternative methods of using Aura now, but was it purely focused on that? She didn't have any guarantee that ancients hadn't used some form of partially or wholly mana-based magitech, or that minority populations didn't still do so. It would certainly explain some of the more exotic effects she'd glimpsed.
"That's practically gambling!" Valter protested. "So many people have treasure-hunting as a full-time job because finding them is hard! It might be a while before she even has any knowledge someone will bother trading for. And that's ignoring the possibility that a magic was Lost because it was a dud or dead end rather than something like powerful instability!"
Blake would probably have a considerably easier time with archeology, actually. Most Wizards had incredibly imprecise magical senses; her own senses were still fairly unreliable, but at least she could gauge general direction rather than just presence.
"What part of 'motivated by curiosity' was unclear?" Giuseppe demanded. "I'm sure somebody would be willing to teach her even just for favors!"
Blake sighed as the two teenagers once again began bickering in earnest. It seemed she wasn't going to be getting much more than the surface-level from them.
Which Guilds would you like to join? Use ranked/preference voting: 1 for your favorite, 2 for second favorite, etc.
…And regardless of which Guild you prefer, would you like to spend some time attending Sylph Symphony's artifice lessons? Use standard X voting.
[] No.
[] Yes.
-[] Before you join a Guild. Otherwise, they might only halfheartedly teach you.
-[] After you're reasonably satisfied that the voices won't harm you, or have dealt with them if they would.
Voting will be locked for 150 minutes after this goes up.
I think being MtG thing being more liekly because Blake is MtG mage, so until she learns more about local magic i will assume most things about her are MtG, but i could be wrong.
May be not what you meant, but to me this sounds like you suggest there to exist a separation or a boundary of some sort between things MtG and non-MtG. Meanwhile, so far (and as expected) the setting seems to be a complete fusion.
Whoops, fixed an error in which Sylph Symphony was mentioned instead of Liquid Horizon. Please refresh the page, otherwise it might be weird.
"Liquid Horizon is trying to avoid most of the worse downsides, but they simply can't remove all of them. They would've sold and popularized those magics if they could manage that, thus removing the 'Lost' part. Still, they do have a point about the possible rewards: Liquid Horizon has some ludicrously powerful Wizards, and their knowledge-for-knowledge policy makes them much less attached to their secrets than you'd often expect.
EDIT: In other news, could we delay the debate on how to handle gathering information about the voices until there's actually a vote for how you want to gather information about the voices? Hopefully, tempers will have cooled down by then.
Okay, so, there's already been a fair amount of debate over which guild to join, so I'll leave that for now. I'm definitely in favor of doing the artificing course, as Blake already has decent skill in her native tech level, so it would be more a matter of learning to use the local tools and the actual magical infusion or whatever, rather than starting from scratch. I see no reason to wait on that, whatever is up with the shadow voices doesn't seem likely to be quickly resolved, and the artificing course would be a chance to meet and get a feeling for a few members of the Sylphs and whoever else is attending the lessons before making a final decision on which guild to approach.
Sylph Symphony is my first choice because we can learn how to make artifacts to give to White Fang members that we trust. Liquid Horizon is about personal power. The order of the last two was difficult, but I'm rating Lion's Pride higher because it's easier to disappear without notice and larger with hopefully more resources including people to learn from.
1] Angel's Eye (Small & New)
Smaller generally means closer knit so better for making friends, plus access to a semi-trustworthy Warlock and the Messenger sounds interesting.
2] Liquid Horizon (Archeology & Magic Development)
As mentioned, we've got a great set of skills for archeology, though we could probably put those to use elsewhere as well.
3] Sylph Symphony (Artifact Creation)
We can get most of the short term benefits just by attending their classes
4] Lion's Pride (Large & General)
Generalists ain't shit.
[] Yes.
-[] Before you join a Guild. Otherwise, they might only halfheartedly teach you.
No real reason to put it off as far as I can tell.
If we were Blue at base, I'd vote for Sylph Symphony: between the unsavory reputation of warlocks and the structured nature of blue, it would be a much better version for a Blue based Blake.
Sylph Symphony is my first choice because we can learn how to make artifacts to give to White Fang members that we trust. Liquid Horizon is about personal power. The order of the last two was difficult, but I'm rating Lion's Pride higher because it's easier to disappear without notice and larger with hopefully more resources including people to learn from.
Admittedly, I haven't watched the show directly, but I think this is a single person at best: maybe Ilia. Our boyfriend went all murderhappy: I don't think we'd trust anyone else in there easily.
That leaves us with Liquid Horizon and Angel's Eye.
Angel's Eye has someone that can sort of train us, or at least inspire us. it's also a closer knit group, which is both good and bad.
Liquid Horizon would be very interested in Aura as it's effectively a very easy to teach magic, would have a set of rare and powerful mages to imitate, and would be consistently taking jobs that we're not unsuitable for. The lack of warlocks means that we'd be encouraged to branch out into other colors, and maybe be discouraged from using black at all.
Liquid Horizon is better if we want to diversify our skills, monetizing Aura, and spread our magic to other colors.
Angel's Eye if better if we want to build a support network, grow in skill in black, and possibly research gods.
I can't really see Blake being interested/suitable for going into crafting at the moment, maybe latter when she has more control in the colors? I don't think a three day crash course would get her anything right now, while she still has significant trouble just controlling her magic.
I'm most interested in Liquid Horizon's knowledge focus, though I can see the appeal of Angel's Eye's warlock and Sylph Symphony is basically a different type of knowledge focus, just one of less interest to me.
EDIT: Right, moratorium. Hard to remember, especially since I went here immediately.
I think it is worth mentioning that as a walker powering artifacts won't be nearly as big a problem as it would be for others and has a built in spend more mana for a greater effect in the form of delayed effects. There isn't any reason Blake's personal artifacts or those of other artificers have to make the tradeoff of being useable by people without magic or a given affinity.
