Revolution (RWBY Planeswalker Blake)

[Valmond]

I'm getting a bit tired of you attacking positions I've never held. I don't know if you just don't care to keep track of nuance or if you're attacking straw men to try to 'win', but I'd appreciate it if you knock it off.

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You are the one bringing up ways to drive them away.
Like, i am sorry if you feel like i am attacking a position you are not holding, i'll try not to do so, but ignoring my actual arguments is no better.

We were just told about someone having to do a runner because of alleged death magic usage before the law changed.
We should not assume we can just randomly blurt out that we might be possessed and nothing bad will happen.

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Anti warlock sentiment is not necessarily gone, not every mage or guild is necessarily heroic, or even a decent people, and mages in canon are not necessarily presentative of the mages in the quest.
You say voices might be dangerous. Sure. So can people we meet.
Before we run to find an expert, we need to find out what we need an expert on, or if we even need an expert.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

You are the one bringing up ways to drive them away.
Like, i am sorry if you feel like i am attacking a position you are not holding, i'll try not to do so, but ignoring my actual arguments is no better.

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If someone says something along the lines of 'and then if X is necessary it might be accomplished by doing Y' they are not saying that we must necessarily do Y. I should not have to explain this. I really, really shouldn't. I can only assume you are skimming so egregiously you are missing all nuance in an attempt to make your point. Such an approach is not helpful.

Anti warlock sentiment is not necessarily gone, not every mage or guild is necessarily heroic, or even a decent people, and mages in canon are not necessarily presentative of the mages in the quest.
You say voices might be dangerous. Sure. So can people we meet.
Before we run to find an expert, we need to find out what we need an expert on, or if we even need an expert.

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I have not ignored your argument. I have addressed it several times now, and you seem to have ignored every attempt to explain why this is a poor analysis.

To rephrase one final time, we do not need to engage with unknown risks to 'find out what we need an expert on'. There is a simple method of narrowing that down without doing so that has been explained, and it starts by consulting generalists for advice and possible carefully monitored inquiry instead of doing it on our own with no safety net.

Two things can be risky without being equally risky. To judge what course of action to take, you must be able to gauge the degree of risk associated with different courses of action. Crossing a street and jumping off a building are both risky, but one is a better choice of activity.

Engaging with completely unknown entities with completely unknown abilities and motivations is a horrible risk. All we really know about them is that they were probably willing to kill or hurt people if we suggested they should. That's not an encouraging sign.

Meanwhile, we can do a lot to gauge the level of risk involved in approaching people for help. That is a much more manageable situation.

A known moderate risk vs. a completely unknown and possibly severe risk is a very obvious risk calculation to make. If you are sane you choose the known moderate risk that you can mitigate, and not the bomb that might blow up in your face.

I will not address this again. I have no faith that you will read this, and I've wasted enough time on it.

 

[Valmond]

If someone says something along the lines of 'and then if X is necessary it might be accomplished by doing Y' they are not saying that we must necessarily do Y. I should not have to explain this. I really, really shouldn't. I can only assume you are skimming so egregiously you are missing all nuance in an attempt to make your point. Such an approach is not helpful.


I have not ignored your argument. I have addressed it several times now, and you seem to have ignored every attempt to explain why this is a poor analysis.

To rephrase one final time, we do not need to engage with unknown risks to 'find out what we need an expert on'. There is a simple method of narrowing that down without doing so that has been explained, and it starts by consulting generalists for advice and possible carefully monitored inquiry instead of doing it on our own with no safety net.

Two things can be risky without being equally risky. To judge what course of action to take, you must be able to gauge the degree of risk associated with different courses of action. Crossing a street and jumping off a building are both risky, but one is a better choice of activity.

Engaging with completely unknown entities with completely unknown abilities and motivations is a horrible risk. All we really know about them is that they were probably willing to kill or hurt people if we suggested they should. That's not an encouraging sign.

Meanwhile, we can do a lot to gauge the level of risk involved in approaching people for help. That is a much more manageable situation.

A known moderate risk vs. a completely unknown and possibly severe risk is a very obvious risk calculation to make. If you are sane you choose the known moderate risk that you can mitigate, and not the bomb that might blow up in your face.

I will not address this again. I have no faith that you will read this, and I've wasted enough time on it.

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Again, that kinda includes lot of the people we meet.
I think you are vastly overestimating the risk is merely talking the voices, and underestimating the risks of talking to people.

And i have notedly been against talking to people we don't already trust, which is why i am so interested in the angels guild because they have a known warlock already on the team, so if we can make friends with them, there is a source of information and a group with a known history of if not outright defending warlocks from persecution, then atleast accepting and not persecuting them in their group.

You are free to not answer to me, but if you keep making the argument, i will probably keep responding to it, not because i expect to change your opinion, but because i disagree and want other readers to have different viewpoint on the issue to think about.

 

[Czlyydwr Llrngwl]

The shadowy dream voices want to be summoned, and one of the mages mentioned in the last update was a summoner, so she knows they exist if she didn't from earlier conversations. That does seem like a simple equation for "who might be useful to ask about shadowy voices," she just needs to make sure whichever guild she approaches isn't dead-set against summoners for some reason and preferably has at least one to consult with.

 

[Valmond]

Maybe learn about general opinions on warlocks first.
And on summoning at general, because what the voices mean when they speak of being summoned may not be what mages mean when they speak of summoning.
Are the summoners in question summoning actual beings with opinions and goals and lives outside being summoned, or pre existing objects, or just somekind of platonic ideal of a thing.

I am currently operating from the assumption that the voices are
A: Sapient beings separate from Blake (ie. not somekind of super powered evil side or subconscious desire to go all out).
B: Not lying. (Partly meta reason of them being honest being more interesting, but also them not having actually said anything that comes of as deceptive)
C: Potentially very dangerous. (including to us)
D: Probably not capable of possessing us if we simply talk to them. (partly meta reason of that kind of being bit too early to meet and that being more of a blue thing)

Now, if people feel like we should try to work on our mental shields to avoid mind control effects before talking to the voices, i am not opposed to that, because that is a thing we need to do anyway.
But i would rather we not advertice the voices to anyone, unless we actually need to.
Partly because i am generally in favour of lowkey paranoia, and partly because they could potentially be very useful ace in our sleeve, especially if nobody knows about them.
The voices could be our season finale power up we seemingly pull out of nowhere from outsider point of view.

 

[pthree]

[X] Are there any additional Guilds that they'd recommend actively avoiding?

[X] Can they go into more detail about Liquid Horizon and Sylph Symphony? Compare between them, benefits of joining and why would someone study lost magic over magic tools, or vice-versa.

[X] Does Lion's Pride have infighting or other political nonsense among their different sub-factions?

[X] Do they happen to know what the general reception for Warlocks has been? There's a big difference between 'legal' and 'accepted.'

[X] Are there any moral Warlock Guilds around, or is that still thought to be an oxymoron?

 

[Skelm]

You're fundamentally misunderstanding my argument. You think I believe that the entities are something terrible. That is not the case.

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You do though. You are making a strong positive assertion that these things (and not random strangers in general) are so dangerous that even just asking them what their deal is is an unjustifiable risk.

The other path is seeking out an expert, or other source of knowledge. We could go to a big mage guild and offer 'figure out what's going on with my issue' or 'find me an expert in a this topic' as a job, for example. Or we could find a library, I have lower hopes for that approach but it does keep things close to the vest.

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And then they tell us "gee Blake, that description is so vague it could be literally anything"

What sort of expert are you even looking for? We don't know enough to know what field to look for! We don't know enough to know what books are relevant! We don't know enough to give anyone else that information either.

You can't ask someone else for information until you already know something about the subject. That could maybe mean scanning it with magic or something, but we don't know any spells to do that and trying to magically probe the voices sounds more dangerous then just talking to them to me.

A known moderate risk vs. a completely unknown and possibly severe risk is a very obvious risk calculation to make. If you are sane you choose the known moderate risk that you can mitigate, and not the bomb that might blow up in your face.

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This, right here, is a claim to a large amount of evidence. Almost no things are bombs that explode when you talk to them. Of the things that are, most will explode even if you don't talk to them. To claim that this risk is unknown, that the very bad outcomes are similarly likely to the neutral or good ones, is claiming to have ruled out almost all of the safe and always-dangerous things such that the two collections are now of similar size. Further, this distinction (among things that are goal-directed entities) is almost all down to capacity, not motive, so the spooky murder voice doesn't influence this.

Where, then, are you getting this evidence from?

I don't see why being wary about creepy dream-entities that have offered to slaughter your enemies in a catchy rhyme should be controversial. The story of mysterious, fey-like creatures that sincerely offer a deal for power, which nonetheless ends up backfiring horribly is a tale practically as old human storytelling itself.

Blake's in a region where the neighboring country was recently destroyed by demons, and gods are confirmed to exist on this world. Seeking outside advice about the kill-happy voices in her dreams is basic common sense. Trusting the mysterious voices, under the excuse they might be benevolent (#NotAllDemons) is incredibly naive and foolish.

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There is a big difference between being cautious enough to not make a deal that involves summoning unknown entities into the world, and being so cautious that you won't even ask them a question. The first is disastrous most of the time, the second is only disastrous is a very small slice of possibilities.

 

[SolipsistSerpent]

I'm torn between Angel Eye's openly practicing dark magic user who doesn't seem to be a criminal and all the unique and possibly apocalyptic magics practiced by Liquid Horizon.

 

[Skelm]

I'm a big fan of Liquid Horizon's magical archeology. The skills might come in handy in MGLN too!

 

[Valmond]

If we don't go for the angels and their possibly safe to practice dark magic environment, i would prefer we go crafting route, magic items are portable, flexible given time to prepare, easy to distribute, and can be removed.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

You do though. You are making a strong positive assertion that these things (and not random strangers in general) are so dangerous that even just asking them what their deal is is an unjustifiable risk.

And then they tell us "gee Blake, that description is so vague it could be literally anything"

What sort of expert are you even looking for? We don't know enough to know what field to look for! We don't know enough to know what books are relevant! We don't know enough to give anyone else that information either.

You can't ask someone else for information until you already know something about the subject. That could maybe mean scanning it with magic or something, but we don't know any spells to do that and trying to magically probe the voices sounds more dangerous then just talking to them to me.

This, right here, is a claim to a large amount of evidence. Almost no things are bombs that explode when you talk to them. Of the things that are, most will explode even if you don't talk to them. To claim that this risk is unknown, that the very bad outcomes are similarly likely to the neutral or good ones, is claiming to have ruled out almost all of the safe and always-dangerous things such that the two collections are now of similar size. Further, this distinction (among things that are goal-directed entities) is almost all down to capacity, not motive, so the spooky murder voice doesn't influence this.

Where, then, are you getting this evidence from?

There is a big difference between being cautious enough to not make a deal that involves summoning unknown entities into the world, and being so cautious that you won't even ask them a question. The first is disastrous most of the time, the second is only disastrous is a very small slice of possibilities.

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I have already answered every one of these objections in detail.

 

[Alivaril]

I have already answered every one of these objections in detail.

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I generally recommend that you try to quote/bold yourself as a reply to certain points if you're going to claim something like "I already covered that." At the least, it either adds emphasis or helps people understand what you're thinking.


One important thing to remember in questing is that it's not necessarily about being right—the topics involved are often too complex for that. It's about communicating what you think is right and trying to convince others to share your opinion, or of collaborating with others to find a "right" answer at all.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

I generally recommend that you try to quote/bold yourself as a reply to certain points if you're going to claim something like "I already covered that." At the least, it either adds emphasis or helps people understand what you're thinking.

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These two aren't bothering to read anything I write anyway, there's really no point in spending the time. If they care they can actually read the previous posts.

 

[Valmond]

These two aren't bothering to read anything I write anyway, there's really no point in spending the time. If they care they can actually read the previous posts.

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I have read every one of your posts.
I remain unconvinced by your arguments.
And as Skelm pointed out, you are treating the voices as something terrible, to a point where even any attempt at conversation is an unacceptable risk.
I disagree with that assessment.
The biggest threat to us so far has been from a some random (probably) mage mind whammying us, the voices, even if black, have shown no inherent danger or hostility towards us.

 

[w34v3r]

Point of order, they're in a Walker's head, admittedly a neo-walker, but still I wouldn't put much hope into the idea that anyone on this plane would be at all useful for dealing with them. Odds are the only other walker-aware entity on this world is the voice, and they're probably not all the way here.

Of course liquid horizon is probably the best place to go for walker lore anyway, if there's any to be found.

I wouldn't really expect to find solid data on the voice from any source besides the voice without travelling to a place with either lots of walker activity or a major hub world like Throne, Ravnica, Marvel, DC, Jianghu, 3rd Earth, or someplace like that.

 

[Nixeu]

The setting, however, is metal as fuck with dangerous artifacts of dead civilizations laying around like discarded socks in a college dorm. The socks have also been soaked in nitroglycerin.

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More like chlorine azide or nitrogen triiodide. Nitroglycerin, while sensitive as fuck to shock (meaning impacts) and friction, doesn't just explode for no apparent reason. You actually have to step on it. Chlorine azide detonates whenever it damn well pleases, and the sheer number of things that can detonate nitrogen triiodide is astounding. The lightest of breezes or a feather being dropped on it will set that stuff off. Also alpha particles. So don't open up your smoke detector, yank out the little chunk of americium oxide, and bring it within...I think maybe 6 inches or so, in open air? Alpha particles are really easy to block. A sheet of paper is sufficient shielding.

B: Not lying. (Partly meta reason of them being honest being more interesting, but also them not having actually said anything that comes of as deceptive)

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I'm not sure they've told us anything with enough detail to qualify as deception, except if they're feeding us blatant lies. And, if they were going the "blatantly lie" route, pretending to be some angelic being would likely be way more effective than pretty much admitting they want to hunt and kill people. Most of their comments have been about their emotional state, Blake's current situation, and/or very obvious attempts to tempt/convince Blake to summon them. I'm not saying it's impossible to weave some sort of wicked, nuanced web of lies and half-truths through incredibly simplistic and short couplets, but it's not exactly easy.

One important thing to remember in questing is that it's not necessarily about being right—the topics involved are often too complex for that. It's about communicating what you think is right and trying to convince others to share your opinion, or of collaborating with others to find a "right" answer at all.

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This^. Seriously, guys, cool it down a little. You've both made fairly decent points that should be considered. I'm mostly taking a backseat in this Quest ATM, so I'm kinda neutral on this debate. I will, however, point out that a lot of people seem to be assuming Blake's statements about voices, for good or for ill, will be taken at roughly face value, I.E. that she is actually hearing voices from some magical being. I'm not sure how well founded that assumption is. Even setting aside mental illness, people lie, either to themselves or others, about stuff like that, for a multitude of reasons. Especially teens with a desire to feel cool/unique and impress other teens. Just sayin'.

 

[Valmond]

I'm not sure they've told us anything with enough detail to qualify as deception, except if they're feeding us blatant lies. And, if they were going the "blatantly lie" route, pretending to be some angelic being would likely be way more effective than pretty much admitting they want to hunt and kill people. Most of their comments have been about their emotional state, Blake's current situation, and/or very obvious attempts to tempt/convince Blake to summon them. I'm not saying it's impossible to weave some sort of wicked, nuanced web of lies and half-truths through incredibly simplistic and short couplets, but it's not exactly easy.

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Which is why i am pretty sure they have not been deceptive, not enough conversation that they have much room to do so.
They have asked if "they are prey" and claimed to love us.
And i suspect those both have come from a very honest place, but then i love chicken, as food, so that does not actually tell us much.

We have so little information about the voices that it is impossible to make any real threat assessment.

 

[Alivaril]

These two aren't bothering to read anything I write anyway, there's really no point in spending the time. If they care they can actually read the previous posts.

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Valmond already mentioned this, but there's a big difference between "they don't agree with me" versus "they aren't bothering to read what I write." That's why it could be helpful to quote yourself in response to points that you think that you've already addressed; X should be a solution to Y, A to D, etc. It would make it easier for other people to address how they think it didn't cover their points, or help them realize how you thought that they should interact—or if someone is operating in bad faith, then everyone else gets to see that yes, you did cover that. A blanket "I already addressed all of that" isn't nearly as helpful.

Questing is a matter of both convincing others and communicating with others. There are seldom perfect answers, only tradeoffs. You might feel like burning firewood is an easy solution to the current problem of cold, while others want to save that wood for boarding up the windows. That others disagree with your preferred plan or don't seem to understand doesn't necessarily mean that they haven't been reading what you say.


(Source: XKCD 1028, Communication)


At any rate, I'm locking the vote.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

That others disagree with your preferred plan or don't seem to understand doesn't necessarily mean that they haven't been reading what you say.

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Absolutely true, but when people ask the same questions you've answered several times before, or criticize a position you did not hold, it becomes clear that they're not actually reading or interested in a robust discussion.

 

[Valmond]

Absolutely true, but when people ask the same questions you've answered several times before, or criticize a position you did not hold, it becomes clear that they're not actually reading or interested in a robust discussion.

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Or that you have failed to answer the question to their satisfaction, or have been unclear when stating your position.

So, to state what i have understood to be your position:
1. Talking to the voices is dangerous because they might mind control or otherwise take us over if we do.
2. We should seek experts to whom we can describe the voices in case they know what thy are and/or how to get rid of them.
3. Revealing that we may be demonically possessed warlock is unlikely to be risky because fairy tale mages are heroic?

If i am wrong, please say how.

This is ofcourse very simplified, as i did not feel like going through the whole discussion again.

Well, my response to these positions are
1. This is, for both in and out of character reasons, extremely unlikely to a point of coming of as fear mongering.
2. I find it unlikely that we can find experts in short term that we can trust, assuming any exist as this is probably MtG thing instead of Fairy Tail thing. And even if we do, we do not know enough to make any actual theory from them to be reliable. So taking my previous position into account, we should instead talk to the voices and see what they have to say to us (this does not mean we should believe everything they say). And going for "get rid of" option before talking to them is pointlesly hostile.
3. We have already heard of one known heroic warlock having do a runner (from people she saved?), warlocks were illegal not so long ago, dark guilds exist, and we have already been mind whammied once by some (probably?) random mage, while the voices have done nothing to us. Talk to the voices first.

So in conclusion i believe we should not talk about the voices to anyone we have no good reason to trust (mages generally heroic is not a reason to trust them as far as i am concerned).
We should learn about the voices in specific, and warlocks in general.
And as voices are the best and most easily accessible source of information about the voices, we should seek to open dialogue with the voices.

 

[Czlyydwr Llrngwl]

Even if not mentioning the voices as such for now, I do think Blake should add finding out about summoning magic, how it's acquired, and if there are common risks and/or precautions to be taken when trying, as soon as she has a reasonably trustworthy summoner to ask about it. If that means making finding one a mid-range priority to actively seek out as part of checking out the guild(s) she decides she's interested in, all the better.

 

[Alivaril]

Spoiler: Spoiler'd to prevent authorial alerts

Absolutely true, but when people ask the same questions you've answered several times before, or criticize a position you did not hold, it becomes clear that they're not actually reading or interested in a robust discussion.

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Mate, you could make an argument for Valmond, but Skelm didn't even post on page 44 of this thread and posted once on page 43. I think that you're attributing malice where there isn't any. Still, if you feel like someone is acting in bad faith, then providing specific examples is more helpful than "I already covered this and think you're acting in bad faith."


...I grabbed a pile of quotes, but I'd honestly rather write the quest so I'll just go over one set.

Let's say it was demonic possession. We have no idea at all how the locals treat that, or any other sort of weird exotic mental interference. I don't see how a big guild with lots of internal factions isn't a risky choice to talk to. It might be slightly less risky than just asking the voice, but I'm not convinced it's really a major difference - as far as we know the voice can't try and actually harm us or interfere with things unless we Pray to it and summon it, whereas a large enough guild absolutely can.

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Have you ever seen Fairy Tail? You seem to be assuming this is some sort of very dark setting.

Wizards in sanctioned guilds do not straight up murder clients who come to them for help. They'll go to great lengths to find a way to help clients. It's literally how they make their living. If it's a demonic issue I expect they'll find some sort of magic ritual to deal with it, or an exorcist mage, or a special location that scares away demons, or something along those lines. That's how these sorts of issues usually go in universe.

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We were just told about someone having to do a runner because of alleged death magic usage before the law changed.
We should not assume we can just randomly blurt out that we might be possessed and nothing bad will happen.
Also, we do not know the voices are hostile or dangerous to us, going straight to excorcist is an overkill.

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I'm getting a bit tired of you attacking positions I've never held. I don't know if you just don't care to keep track of nuance or if you're attacking straw men to try to 'win', but I'd appreciate it if you knock it off.

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Nemomarx is worried about how the locals will react. You assume that it will be fine, name-drop Fairy Tail (not so helpful; AU, timeframe, and simple focus shifts all ensure that meta-knowledge isn't as helpful as you might expect) and then provide what has the potential to be helpful evidence in the form of economic incentives; the last is something that you've mentioned before in the thread. You also mention what sorts of things they might do, and everything on your list assumes that the locals will think demonic possession is something to be avoided or that the voices otherwise need to be dealt with. Is that last part what you meant to say? Your other posts suggest not! But it would be easy for someone to interpret the list as "the locals might not be too happy about this and might be opposed to the voices" rather than an extension of the economic incentives and "it'll be fine." Elaborating on the position you meant to hold is more helpful and potentially more convincing to others than accusations of bad faith—and if someone is acting in bad faith, then such elaboration can be used to help establish a pattern.

The fact of the matter is that you largely repeated the same points as far as Talking To People vs. Talking To The Voices risks go, and other people did not find those arguments particularly convincing. This doesn't mean that they ignored your posts; they simply disagreed with your risk assessment. That'll happen.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

2. I find it unlikely that we can find experts in short term that we can trust, assuming we any exist as this is probably MtG thing instead of Fairy Tail thing. And even if we do, we do not know enough to make any actual theory from them to be reliable.

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This is probably an incorrect assumption. Demons, gods, and other various summoned mystical creatures exist on this world, and Blake only started hearing the voices after spending more than a week here. As entities that can cross the gap between universes without planeswalker assistance are incredibly rare, chances are the dream-entities are something local to Fairy Tail. Therefore, local experts likely exist on the matter.

I'd be willing to bet that summoners, priests/paladins, warlocks, and sufficiently skilled big-shot wizards have a good chance of knowing what these creatures are, or at least how dangerous they might be if left alone. This is especially the case given the country Blake finds herself in; fighting a war against an army of summoned demons tends to encourage the proliferation of knowledge about how to counter them, and other malicious summoned entities.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

The fact of the matter is that you largely repeated the same points as far as Talking To People vs. Talking To The Voices risks go, and other people did not find those arguments particularly convincing. This doesn't mean that they ignored your posts; they simply disagreed with your risk assessment. That'll happen.

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I am sick and tired of this discussion.

People asked the same questions 'How are you even going to find an expert?', etc, over and over again after possible methods were painstakingly explained. That tells me people did not read. If they did read and found the argument unconvincing, they would point out the purported flaws in the argument. But that is not what they did. They simply repeated the question as though I never spoke to it before.

They attacked conditional statements or statements with the nuance of possibility ('if it is a demonic possession, then perhaps there's something like an exorcist out there, among other options') as definite statements. ('Going off to an exorcist right now is premature'). That again tells me they did not read. They glossed over what I wrote, found something they thought they could attack, and leapt on it in a shallow attempt to try to say something that they thought would make their stance sound better.

The best way to deal with this sort of thing is to add people to an ignore list and move on, not debate with them. Discussion is utterly pointless if people aren't interested in discussion.

Please drop it.

 

[Valmond]

This is probably an incorrect assumption. Demons, gods, and other various summoned mystical creatures exist on this world, and Blake only started hearing the voices after spending more than a week here. As entities that can cross the gap between universes without planeswalker assistance are incredibly rare, chances are the dream-entities are something local to Fairy Tail. Therefore, local experts likely exist on the matter.

I'd be willing to bet that summoners, priests/paladins, warlocks, and sufficiently skilled big-shot wizards have a good chance of knowing what these creatures are, or at least how dangerous they might be if left alone. This is especially the case given the country Blake finds herself in; fighting a war against an army of summoned demons tends to encourage the proliferation of knowledge about how to counter them, and other malicious summoned entities.

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It is possible that they are local, yes.
I think being MtG thing being more liekly because Blake is MtG mage, so until she learns more about local magic i will assume most things about her are MtG, but i could be wrong.

This does not fix the issue of not having enough knowledge to actually provide to any potential experts, or potentially not being able to trust the said experts. Best case scenario is that the voices are not dangerous and nothing bad happens when we go seeking help.
Worst case scenario involves a mob of angry villagers with pitchforks.