Think that's supposed to be "in order to save"?
Renascence: A Homura Quest
- Thread starter Higure
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Mystery
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Indeed. Fixed.
A Golden Ending cannot happen accidentally.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
That Red Truth does not indicate that the salvation of everyone within Mitakihara/Kasamino is required, no.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
I initially misread "befriend" as "boyfriend" and was confused. Did you mean "find a boyfriend for" or "turn into a boy and become the significant other of." And then I read it correctly. I think that my mind went through those possibilities before actually checking to see if I'd read it correctly says bad things about my mental state.She's definitely someone we want to befriend, yes.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
I somehow managed to forget to respond to this
But yes, Tsukihime (well, Kagetsu Tohya and Melty Blood, given the characters involved).
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
It is theoretically possible for you to accidentally create a Golden Ending without knowing the criteria.
It isn't likely, however.
So. Confirmation that Homura doesn't just want her friends to be happy. She wants to be happy with them.
This heavily implies that she needs a strong social link with them - so doing things that damage budding trust work against us - and makes it clear that Homura still has a measure of self-worth. This tells us a lot about who she is, how she thinks, and what she wants.
@Carinthium everyone suspected, but QM has just confirmed, that we can't get a Golden Ending by acting for the Greater Good.
We have to work towards a mutual good. Something that doesn't just save our friends, but keep them close to us. We can't kidnap any of them, because that's an explicit psychological attack. We can't force them to do things our way, or deprive them of their self-worth.
For Sayaka, this means that we can't tell her There Are No Heroes. I'd be willing to bet that the second Locked Memory shows Homura clearly seeing Sayaka as her own Knight in Shining Armor. A real hero. That's who she is, someone unwilling to compromise on moral grounds. It's frustrating, dangerous, but that is who she is, and Homura respects her conviction.
For Mami, this means that we can't do any more damage to her self image. She plays the role of Senpai, to cover for her insecurities. She feels alone, isolated, even weak. She wants to be strong, but she always cries alone. She wants to be brave, but she's terrified as she fights, which is why she names her attacks and calls them. Knock her down any more, and she won't get back up. Hold out your hand, and she'll never let go.
For Kyoko, this means that we can't frame her as 'the bad guy'. She's played that role herself, and if we let her cling to it, she'll hide herself in a cloak of self-loathing. She'll be the madly cackling villain, bonding everyone else together to fend off this nutcase. And she'll hate it. Hate that she's so good at it, hate that she's so 'weak' she cares what others think, hate that she's lying to Mami...If we don't fight for the fact that she's a good person, she herself may forget the fact.
For Madoka, this means surprisingly little. She's capable of hate, sure. And she's capable of love. Endless, overflowing, love without boundaries. She cares, for her parents, and friends, and the fucking cat that gets run the hell over. And she will do anything she can, to make the world right, because she has an incredible power for empathy, even when not personally connected to someone. She doesn't think she's good at anything, which gives her a huge inferiority complex, but that's the farthest thing from the truth. If you felt half of what she does, you would explode.
Homura has successfully brought Mami, Kyoko, and Sayaka together emotionally in past loops.
This heavily implies that she needs a strong social link with them - so doing things that damage budding trust work against us - and makes it clear that Homura still has a measure of self-worth. This tells us a lot about who she is, how she thinks, and what she wants.
@Carinthium everyone suspected, but QM has just confirmed, that we can't get a Golden Ending by acting for the Greater Good.
We have to work towards a mutual good. Something that doesn't just save our friends, but keep them close to us. We can't kidnap any of them, because that's an explicit psychological attack. We can't force them to do things our way, or deprive them of their self-worth.
For Sayaka, this means that we can't tell her There Are No Heroes. I'd be willing to bet that the second Locked Memory shows Homura clearly seeing Sayaka as her own Knight in Shining Armor. A real hero. That's who she is, someone unwilling to compromise on moral grounds. It's frustrating, dangerous, but that is who she is, and Homura respects her conviction.
For Mami, this means that we can't do any more damage to her self image. She plays the role of Senpai, to cover for her insecurities. She feels alone, isolated, even weak. She wants to be strong, but she always cries alone. She wants to be brave, but she's terrified as she fights, which is why she names her attacks and calls them. Knock her down any more, and she won't get back up. Hold out your hand, and she'll never let go.
For Kyoko, this means that we can't frame her as 'the bad guy'. She's played that role herself, and if we let her cling to it, she'll hide herself in a cloak of self-loathing. She'll be the madly cackling villain, bonding everyone else together to fend off this nutcase. And she'll hate it. Hate that she's so good at it, hate that she's so 'weak' she cares what others think, hate that she's lying to Mami...If we don't fight for the fact that she's a good person, she herself may forget the fact.
For Madoka, this means surprisingly little. She's capable of hate, sure. And she's capable of love. Endless, overflowing, love without boundaries. She cares, for her parents, and friends, and the fucking cat that gets run the hell over. And she will do anything she can, to make the world right, because she has an incredible power for empathy, even when not personally connected to someone. She doesn't think she's good at anything, which gives her a huge inferiority complex, but that's the farthest thing from the truth. If you felt half of what she does, you would explode.
Homura has successfully brought Mami, Kyoko, and Sayaka together emotionally in past loops.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
I will not answer that at this time.
Indirect confirmation of related Locked Memories, acknowledged.
Also. Is my summary characterization generally consistent with Renascence?
Hm, I meant an In Character accidentally, but let me try again:
A Golden Ending requires directed effort on Homura's part. It cannot be achieved through happenstance.
- Location
- A friendly desert community
No rush, but I am looking forward to omake bonuses for the recent ones.
Also, interesting speculation, yes, hmm. *steeples fingers while reading thread*
Also, interesting speculation, yes, hmm. *steeples fingers while reading thread*
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Sorry, can't say. Trying to understand their feelings and discover everything about them is something you'll need to do along the way. Confirming or denying your interpretations OOC would interfere with that. The Homumind can't answer too much either, thanks to locked memories.
A Golden Ending could happen without directed effort on Homura's part, but that is extremely unlikely to occur.
Technically, someone else could make it happen, but Homura is the one with the time looping powers and countless loops of experience, so...
As for happening through happenstance...I can't say it's truly impossible, but...it's obscenely unlikely, if it IS possible. It would require multiple highly improbable events, not to mention that it would require multiple characters to perform actions which are very OOC, among other things.
Just think of it as impossible, and you'll be fine.
Edit: Rephrased the Red Truth to be more clear.
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Least likely to be answered I think:
A Golden Ending depends on Homura's state of mind.
and separately:
A Golden Ending requires Homura to desire and accept the outcome.
edit: cleaned up the phrasing on the second
A Golden Ending depends on Homura's state of mind.
and separately:
A Golden Ending requires Homura to desire and accept the outcome.
edit: cleaned up the phrasing on the second
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Edited in a response to EntropyJudge. Post 2272.
MeCrazyFang- What confirmation?
There are several problems.
1- How on earth is it IC for Homura to attempt what, given her knowledge of the situation should be flatly impossible?
2- If we're allowed to use ethical intiuitons rather than good philosophy, my ethical intuition that we can't be a liar means that we cannot be somebody's friend and at the same time reinforce their delusions. If Kinematic's ethical intuition that we can't tell Kyoko's secrets without her consent is allowed to ruin my plans, my ethical intuition is allowed to ruin yours. It's only fair.
If you want to say that we're being completely ruthless and doing whatever it takes to achieve victory, fine. But if so to be consistent you need to accept that my earlier plan to tell Sayaka Kyoko's secrest was completely O.K.
3- Once Walpurgisnacht is done for, we have all the time in the world to tell everyone the truth (bar one or two minor lies). We explain that we couldn't stop Walpurgisnacht no matter how hard we tried without Madoka making a contract and dooming the world, so we did the next best thing rather than get everybody killed.
Madoka will understand- in time, assuming she doesn't immediately. Given the course of a few more years, even if they don't forget everyone will learn to forgive.
MeCrazyFang- What confirmation?
There are several problems.
1- How on earth is it IC for Homura to attempt what, given her knowledge of the situation should be flatly impossible?
2- If we're allowed to use ethical intiuitons rather than good philosophy, my ethical intuition that we can't be a liar means that we cannot be somebody's friend and at the same time reinforce their delusions. If Kinematic's ethical intuition that we can't tell Kyoko's secrets without her consent is allowed to ruin my plans, my ethical intuition is allowed to ruin yours. It's only fair.
If you want to say that we're being completely ruthless and doing whatever it takes to achieve victory, fine. But if so to be consistent you need to accept that my earlier plan to tell Sayaka Kyoko's secrest was completely O.K.
3- Once Walpurgisnacht is done for, we have all the time in the world to tell everyone the truth (bar one or two minor lies). We explain that we couldn't stop Walpurgisnacht no matter how hard we tried without Madoka making a contract and dooming the world, so we did the next best thing rather than get everybody killed.
Madoka will understand- in time, assuming she doesn't immediately. Given the course of a few more years, even if they don't forget everyone will learn to forgive.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
I will not answer at this time.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
Carinthium, you just don't understand quest threads. The purpose is to do the impossible, see the invisible, touch the untouchable, and break the unbreakable. You can't just run from the boss! You MuSt FiGHT it! bReAK it! DestrOY iT! DeFeAT It! ROW, ROW, FIGHT THE POWER!
Citation needed. What evidence do you have for this claim?
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
Basic observation skills and experience gained from participation in well over a dozen quest threads.
As for examples of what I mean, go read Sayaka Quest. Go read Azula Quest. Go read Anko Quest. Go read Asuka Quest. Come back and argue otherwise once you're done.
As for examples of what I mean, go read Sayaka Quest. Go read Azula Quest. Go read Anko Quest. Go read Asuka Quest. Come back and argue otherwise once you're done.
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I don't get to use "It's obvious!" as an argument, so neither do you. Plus argument from authority is a fallacy so you can't use that either.
The ploy of referring to some document so long you know the other debater will never have time to read it is a traditional debater's trick when you don't want to actually argue. Find a better one, please.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
You're argument is "I'm too lazy to do the research, so I'm going to assume you're wrong?" Really?
Here is the TvTropes page for Sayaka Quest.
Here is the TvTropes page for Asuka Quest.
They should give you an idea of what those quests are like. The other two quests I suggested do not seem to have TvTropes pages. I'll have to fix that at some point.
Here is the TvTropes page for Sayaka Quest.
Here is the TvTropes page for Asuka Quest.
They should give you an idea of what those quests are like. The other two quests I suggested do not seem to have TvTropes pages. I'll have to fix that at some point.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Link to the post, or at least a quote of it so I can find it and view the context for myself?
You had said that R!Homura had been through worse than C!Homura, and used her breakdown as an example. However, the breakdown was caused by a happy memory, not a specifically traumatic one, and thus it does not aid your claim that R!Homura has been through worse than C!Homura.
Lots of people nowadays realize they know nothing about (Insert Subject Here) and how they work. Do you know what they do? They ask professionals/experts. What did Sayaka do? Ask Mami and Kyubey, the closest things she has to professionals/experts in the field.
When was it established that we were arguing about something as nebulous as "adult standards of intelligence"?
That aside, I don't see the problem - nothing in her experience would lead to the belief that her mindset was completely invalid.
You are incorrect. The following is a Red Truth:
"Saving Madoka" is not the same as defeating Walpurgisnacht. If you are referring to a different Red Truth, please link it - the above is viewable in the Library in the First Post.
"Can beat Walpurgisnacht" does not mean they know how to, nor does it mean that they can beat it easily, nor does it mean that they can beat it without casualties.
As far as I know, the only thing "blocking" them from doing it is the assumption/belief that they should keep it a secret. And whether or not they believe the cast about Walpurgisnacht is irrelevant to the claim you made, since I am responding to the idea that they cannot make the existence of MGs known easily or quickly.
Of course, they don't actually need to tell anyone about Walpurgisnacht - if a handful of obviously magical individuals began 'terrorizing' the area publically, don't you think that there's going to be a withdrawal and/or evacuation of the entire area? Especially if one of them starts throwing aircraft carriers around the city?
Failure point in the bold: Sayaka may assume that Homura is placing the lives of magical girls over those of normal humans. Sayaka's point of view is that so long as they defeat the Witch, they will have succeeded.
Homura can stop time. All they have to do is have her stop time, have Mami use her ribbons to connect everyone - or just have everyone hold hands! - and move them out that way. Will it take a long time (subjectively)? Yes! Can they evacuate a hell of a lot more people than very low double-digits? Yes! Is Sayaka stupid enough to miss either of the above two points? Hell no. Wordsmithing isn't going to cut it if your points make no sense.A point - but one that none of the other girls will accept.
... This relates to Witchbombing Sayaka ... how? We haven't yet managed to enact a guard for Madoka because we have been doing things for approximately eight hours.
Based on the options chosen and the points raised early in the thread, our current long-term plan appears to be (basically) to learn as much as we can about the world we're in, to improve ourselves (and specifically to learn more about magic and our heart so we can stop burning so much magic on it), and to learn as much backstory as we can. Have we attempted to formulate a "To Win, we must perform Actions X, Y, Z ..." plan? No, because at this point we do not have enough information to even attempt to make such a plan.
You're the only one who appears to be trying to win this loop.
You seem to think Akemi Madness is some kind of Instant Win. It isn't, and DCs can easily go over what we would have available. Moreover, Mami is very likely to realize that you're trying to take advantage of her, and isn't going to pass muster with her.
Which Kyouko is almost certainly going to see as Homura trying to take advantage of her through emotional manipulation. The only way this sort of manipulation could possibly work is if we reveal our true feelings for her and she accepts them - at some point prior to Walpurgisnacht, so she doesn't come to the conclusion that we told her that simply because we wanted to get her 'on our side.' Moreover, using Time Stop in this manner is going to throw her suspicions through the roof, and she's going to take whatever is said with a few mountain ranges' worth of salt.
It's also worth noting that in games with skills, ranks, and such, rarely is the Protagonist the only character with such skills. "NPCs" are going to have skills as well, and traits/abilities. Do not presume that simply because we have Wordsmithing 100 and a pack of bonuses that we can Wordsmith someone into doing something, especially if it's an OOC action that they are fundamentally opposed to doing.
And why would we do that? We want everyone to be friends as often as possible, as early as possible, so that we can all learn
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Firstly, could you actually tag people you want to direct things at? All you have to do is use the @ symbol, and type their username directly after. You can find it in the drop-down, actually, which you'll see once you start typing.
Now. Confirmation...
This, @Carinthium, states that we can't win in death. A Golden Ending, from my understanding, is Homura's desired perfect outcome. It is also the objective of this Quest, as Higure has stated previously.
I infer from this that Homura can't achieve a Golden Ending in death, because part of her Golden Ending includes being alive. Martyrdom and survival are, as you are well aware, mutually exclusive. I suppose it is possible that the Golden Ending requires Homura to be alive for some other specific reason, but it is far more rational to assume that she is motivated to continue living, even after she's saved everyone.
Furthermore. Companionship affects Quality of Life. Human interaction is crucial to human sanity. It is rational and reasonable to assume that Homura desires companionship. It is furthermore reasonable to assume that she desires this companionship from the individuals she's come to call friends: Kaname Madoka, Tomoe Mami, Sakura Kyoko, and Miki Sayaka. This list may be incomplete, but it is not inaccurate.
So. Homura wants to enjoy a peaceful life with her friends.
'1- How on earth is it IC for Homura to attempt what, given her knowledge of the situation should be flatly impossible?'
From this I infer that your own personal viewpoint is that, rationally, if you attempt an endeavor fifty times, and fail fifty times, you should stop.
This is not universal logic. Other people come from a separate viewpoint. You do not have to agree with it. You don't have to buy into it. But you do need to be aware of it, and respect it.
Some people believe that you need to try a fifty-first time. And fifty-second. That if you try something in the first place, you should never stop until you succeed.
Of course, normally, this viewpoint applies to specific circumstances. Instances in which the reward is overwhelmingly motivational, enough so to make repeated failure and frustration of minimal concern. As example, men and women - but mostly men
- will spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars, months of effort, and forgo personal traits that are personally significant, for the sake of sex. It's not always rational, or even reasonable, but it's motivation enough to push forward.In Renascence, here, Akemi Homura is attempting to change fate and destiny, so that people she cares about don't suffer overly. She travels through time for them.
The Sunk Cost Fallacy applies.
If you buy a fifty thousand dollar car, you will repair it if it breaks down. And again. And again. And the tenth time, when the overall cost of repair has exceeded the initial cost of the vehicle, even knowing that your car is going to continue to fail.
You'll do it because you've already spent so much money. You are committed to it, invested in your purchase, and unwilling to throw it away.
Though, I shouldn't specifically say 'you', because you personally, @Carinthium, may evade the Sunk Cost Fallacy. But, as a rule, people do this all the time, throwing more money after bad money. When they've gone so far, they continue, because otherwise, they have to admit that their efforts thus far meant nothing. For a car owner, that acknowledgement is "This car is bad, and I should have bought a better one." or "I should have scrapped this car five years ago."
For Homura, that acknowledgement is "I should never have defied Time, Fate, and Destiny, reliving these moments for years on end, murdering and suffering. I should have let the people I love die."
She'll never do that. She can never do that. She will Witch instantly. Even if she wouldn't, it would require her to admit that the subjective breadth of her life was a mistake.
That is why she'll try doing the impossible. Not because she necessarily thinks that smashing her face against a wall will do anything, but because she has to believe that she can do the impossible.
'2- If we're allowed to use ethical intuitions rather than good philosophy, my ethical intuition that we can't be a liar means that we cannot be somebody's friend and at the same time reinforce their delusions. If Kinematic's ethical intuition that we can't tell Kyoko's secrets without her consent is allowed to ruin my plans, my ethical intuition is allowed to ruin yours. It's only fair.'
You are implying that ethics don't play into 'good philosophy'. In some circumstances, they do.
In this Quest, where we are trying to socialize, towards certain ends, trying a tactic that is ethically questionable is a bad idea. Not simply because the readers will necessarily object, but because the people Homura is talking to care about ethics.
If we do or say something they object to, it damages our social standing. For example, sharing someone else's secrets without consent. That is a very large breach of trust, and an act of social warfare. It's the sort of thing that is done in certain cliques, to rise in social strata. You get close to someone, get entrusted with a secret, and spread it.
It's a bad idea. It is an unrecoverable blow to any relationship. Given a one-month time limit, it is impossible to overcome an error like that. Given more time, say half a year, you can most definitely overcome a mis-step such as that, but in Renascence, we don't have that much time.
So, when someone is arguing ethics, they are likely not just arguing 'this is bad and makes me uncomfortable'. If they are just arguing from that point of view, Modly Intervention is imminent. No, they are likely arguing 'this is a bad idea, and will have fallout that we are not prepared for.'
'3- Once Walpurgisnacht is done for, we have all the time in the world to tell everyone the truth (bar one or two minor lies). We explain that we couldn't stop Walpurgisnacht no matter how hard we tried without Madoka making a contract and dooming the world, so we did the next best thing rather than get everybody killed.'
There are several errors in this logic. Firstly, you presume that we will necessarily have the chance to explain. The plans you are proposing tend to include actions taken that would, by nature, preclude further social interactions. Kidnapping, knocking people out, taking away their choices, forcing them to abandon their ideals, etc...Yes, from a purely logistical standpoint, your ideas are not without merit.
However. Trust is a crucial element present in human interaction.
If your mother tells you that your family has won a vacation package to the Bahamas in a recent raffle, so you need to pack and arrange for time off from work, chances are, you'll talk to her about the logistics of this. Such as "You're sure it wasn't a scam? Was it on the internet?" and "When should I ask for off, and how long?"
If a banner tells you that you've won a trip to the Bahamas, chances are you're going to add that banner to your Ad-Block list.
If a homeless man tells you that you've won a trip to the Bahamas, chances are you're going to keep walking, and mutter about drunkards.
That's because you (Should) trust your family more than an anonymous internet banner, or homeless man.
If your sibling asks you to come by their house to help with the roofing, and you recall that they took you out to a nice restaurant just last week, you are fairly likely to agree.
If your drunkard father asks you to fix that hole in his roof, you may decide that the debt of your continued existence overrides your disdain, and you may help him. Maybe.
If your uncle, who raped you when you were six, asks you for help with the roof, you're going to hang up, and possibly invest in home defense measures.
Different degrees of trust and affection, you see.
Other people are trying to be the cool sibling that buys food. What you're trying to do doesn't line up with the other two examples, of course, but surely you can see the advantage of engendering trust and affection?
You people have given me a hell of a lot to argue with. I'll deal with you one at a time.