Renascence: A Homura Quest
- Thread starter Higure
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Mystery
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
I know the feeling. Something looks like it isn't right, but you can't think of it? I kind of get the feeling there's a brick wall right in front of us and we're going to plow straight into it, but the vote itself looks fine to me ....
IMPORTANT NOTE. If anybody wants to, they may take the argument to Conversations. I don't want, but at this rate, the mods will penalise me if I don't.
I have no right under my own rules of proper behaviour to force you to do so, however. So I won't.
Also, notifying anyone interested that if this plan gets rejected, I WILL write an Omake in which Homura tries it. You can't stop me from writing it, so any characterisation tips? I can't think of a way this could plausibly fail so badly Homura would turn back time.
1- Renascene!Homura has gone through every trauma Canon Homura has, barring possibly those at the end of the Final Timeline where she nearly gave up, and much worse. The only reason she's still going is that she's abandoned critical memories that leave a subconscious scar. She can't take them- as shown by the fact she broke down so badly when we gave her ONE crucial memory.
So how do we explain her being able to cope so well after situations so bad they'd make veteran soldiers broke down? The only explanation that makes sense is to say that she's psycologically taped over, putting on a front of strength with MASSIVE repressed trauma in the form of lost memories.
As far as Homura knows ICly, Walpurgisnacht is for practical purposes invincible and might actually be invincible. Therefore it makes sense ICly to look for another option.
2- How often does Hollywood reflect the reality? Sayaka saw Mami get torn apart by a Witch, knew intellectually that most Magical Girls weren't like Mami, and was explicitly warned by Mami about making a selfless wish.
If not for the fact she was just a child, I would call her actions unforgivably stupid. Once people grow up, they realise that there are a lot of influences which form a fiction most of which have no correlation with reality.
3- A few statistical drops in the ocean may exist, but they don't change the general case that over 99.99% of 14-year olds are no match whatsoever for the average person in their 20s intellectually. Even such children are usually only prodigies within one narrow area.
Plus, if Sayaka had an intellect comparable to the average 20-year old she wouldn't be at Mitakihara but some prodigy school. She'd be isolated from her peers by her sheer intelligence, which people would notice and praise. She would NOT be struggling with her marks, no matter how little she paid attention!
4- Remember, at this point we haven't yet told Sayaka we don't think Walpurgisnacht can be beaten. We 'conclude' that when everyone's getting their asses kicked. So we say:
"We can't evacuate everyone, unless you have some brilliant plan to clue everyone in on the existence of Magical Girls! We might be able to save these people, but only if we can fight at our best! And that means we can't have the anxiety of our loved ones being in danger!
Evacuating your loved ones is a military measure to ensure you can fight at your best. If, say, Kyouske were killed in the midst of battle? You'd go into a Berserker Rage, and probably get yourself killed! Losing even one person would mean we'd have no chance left of victory, because Walpurgisnacht is JUST. THAT. POWERFUL."
If Mami Tomoe is there when we say these things, take that into account. She'd at least see where we were coming from, making it harder for Sayaka to be outraged.
5- We have done nothing villanious here, even if we aren't being pure Heroes either. Rather than Good or Evil, we're being more like Neutral. It's worth it to win in one loop, even if it isn't total.
6- Not at this rate it can't! If we keep dividing our attention between different things, we'll never get around to building trust with Sayaka. I'm being a pragmatist about this thread's ability to stay focused by declaring that we NEED to stick to a single plan everybody has agreed on.
Remember, we would need to achieve the monumental task of Witchbombing Miki Sayaka and yet having her not get herself killed out of sheer stupidity. I don't think we can pull that off in a week.
7- Not so. She accepted some people were going to die, so rather than try to save everybody she tried to save as many as possible.
8- Kyoko would hear my logic for retreat as well. If Mami was convinced, she'd try and get through to Kyoko with it. This is the first factor.
Second, we appeal (backed by Akemi Madness) to the selfish philosophy Kyoko has advocated all these years and ask if she's nothing more than a hypocrite.
Third, we're trying to retreat together. We aren't leaving Kyoko to die.
9- I think Higure, like PMAS's cast, have a much narrower idea of 'Happy End'. To his mind, saving all the Magical Girls in history is simply not required.
I have no right under my own rules of proper behaviour to force you to do so, however. So I won't.
Also, notifying anyone interested that if this plan gets rejected, I WILL write an Omake in which Homura tries it. You can't stop me from writing it, so any characterisation tips? I can't think of a way this could plausibly fail so badly Homura would turn back time.
1- Renascene!Homura has gone through every trauma Canon Homura has, barring possibly those at the end of the Final Timeline where she nearly gave up, and much worse. The only reason she's still going is that she's abandoned critical memories that leave a subconscious scar. She can't take them- as shown by the fact she broke down so badly when we gave her ONE crucial memory.
So how do we explain her being able to cope so well after situations so bad they'd make veteran soldiers broke down? The only explanation that makes sense is to say that she's psycologically taped over, putting on a front of strength with MASSIVE repressed trauma in the form of lost memories.
As far as Homura knows ICly, Walpurgisnacht is for practical purposes invincible and might actually be invincible. Therefore it makes sense ICly to look for another option.
2- How often does Hollywood reflect the reality? Sayaka saw Mami get torn apart by a Witch, knew intellectually that most Magical Girls weren't like Mami, and was explicitly warned by Mami about making a selfless wish.
If not for the fact she was just a child, I would call her actions unforgivably stupid. Once people grow up, they realise that there are a lot of influences which form a fiction most of which have no correlation with reality.
3- A few statistical drops in the ocean may exist, but they don't change the general case that over 99.99% of 14-year olds are no match whatsoever for the average person in their 20s intellectually. Even such children are usually only prodigies within one narrow area.
Plus, if Sayaka had an intellect comparable to the average 20-year old she wouldn't be at Mitakihara but some prodigy school. She'd be isolated from her peers by her sheer intelligence, which people would notice and praise. She would NOT be struggling with her marks, no matter how little she paid attention!
4- Remember, at this point we haven't yet told Sayaka we don't think Walpurgisnacht can be beaten. We 'conclude' that when everyone's getting their asses kicked. So we say:
"We can't evacuate everyone, unless you have some brilliant plan to clue everyone in on the existence of Magical Girls! We might be able to save these people, but only if we can fight at our best! And that means we can't have the anxiety of our loved ones being in danger!
Evacuating your loved ones is a military measure to ensure you can fight at your best. If, say, Kyouske were killed in the midst of battle? You'd go into a Berserker Rage, and probably get yourself killed! Losing even one person would mean we'd have no chance left of victory, because Walpurgisnacht is JUST. THAT. POWERFUL."
If Mami Tomoe is there when we say these things, take that into account. She'd at least see where we were coming from, making it harder for Sayaka to be outraged.
5- We have done nothing villanious here, even if we aren't being pure Heroes either. Rather than Good or Evil, we're being more like Neutral. It's worth it to win in one loop, even if it isn't total.
6- Not at this rate it can't! If we keep dividing our attention between different things, we'll never get around to building trust with Sayaka. I'm being a pragmatist about this thread's ability to stay focused by declaring that we NEED to stick to a single plan everybody has agreed on.
Remember, we would need to achieve the monumental task of Witchbombing Miki Sayaka and yet having her not get herself killed out of sheer stupidity. I don't think we can pull that off in a week.
7- Not so. She accepted some people were going to die, so rather than try to save everybody she tried to save as many as possible.
8- Kyoko would hear my logic for retreat as well. If Mami was convinced, she'd try and get through to Kyoko with it. This is the first factor.
Second, we appeal (backed by Akemi Madness) to the selfish philosophy Kyoko has advocated all these years and ask if she's nothing more than a hypocrite.
Third, we're trying to retreat together. We aren't leaving Kyoko to die.
9- I think Higure, like PMAS's cast, have a much narrower idea of 'Happy End'. To his mind, saving all the Magical Girls in history is simply not required.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
It's probably because we're having a brainstorming session about how to kill a witch that took the form of a giant monster in front of said witch that took on the form of a giant monster and not really doing anything to keep it from attacking us, and also due to us completely disregarding the familiars.
Indeed, and it looks like we need to start looking for those limits.
Technically, Higure avoided defining whether Homura recognized those elements as cross-reality or not.
Kinematics- Looking for those limits would be an OOC action. ICly, why should Homura believe in their existence?
From Homura's IC POV, a Golden Ending is defined by her being satisfied with the outcome- the standards of what is and isn't have changed with her desires. I don't see how we could start looking at all.
On the cross-reality point- if she has recognised, it's probably without being aware. Even if not, she has no reason to believe that the elements will allow her to beat Walpurgisnacht and at most would hold out a faint hope.
Proposed new topic. I'm considering writing an Omake on the basis of Homura Akemi adopting the plan I proposed, because it would make no sense for her not to try that at least once. Requesting characterisation advice and plotting advice on what might happen.
The problem is I want to write the more ruthless Homura of canon, with a bit more social experience but having not shifted in attitude yet. Therefore I can't see any way for this plan to create an outcome that Canon!Homura would find unacceptable leading her to keep looping.
From Homura's IC POV, a Golden Ending is defined by her being satisfied with the outcome- the standards of what is and isn't have changed with her desires. I don't see how we could start looking at all.
On the cross-reality point- if she has recognised, it's probably without being aware. Even if not, she has no reason to believe that the elements will allow her to beat Walpurgisnacht and at most would hold out a faint hope.
Proposed new topic. I'm considering writing an Omake on the basis of Homura Akemi adopting the plan I proposed, because it would make no sense for her not to try that at least once. Requesting characterisation advice and plotting advice on what might happen.
The problem is I want to write the more ruthless Homura of canon, with a bit more social experience but having not shifted in attitude yet. Therefore I can't see any way for this plan to create an outcome that Canon!Homura would find unacceptable leading her to keep looping.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
So guys. Do we adopt Nanoha after this or what? I'm all for more firepower.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
I don't think we're allowed to adopt people the same apparent age as us.
Why would we care? Part of the quest is to gain OOC information.
It's impossible to say one way or the other at this point in time. However I would also argue that there's no reason to believe that Homura would not be looking for any and every possible tool to use against Walpurgisnacht. If 'anomalies' show up, regardless of their source, that's just another tool to add to her arsenal.
There's no question that we want to keep her as a friend & frequent contact. I want to learn her kind of magic. Unshackling us from the Grief Machine would be huge, even if it isn't very powerful.
So, shopping list:
1 Jumbo Stroller
1 pacifier
1 pink baby bonnet
Tips on the Omake? Anyone?
Kinematics:
1- Because it's very hard right now to justify any sort of IC action to try and figure out how to get a Golden Ending.
2- My point there is that at this point Homura should realistically hold out at most a very faint hope of actually beating Walpurgisnacht. Therefore, presented with my plan either Canon or Renascene Homura should go for it.
Kinematics:
1- Because it's very hard right now to justify any sort of IC action to try and figure out how to get a Golden Ending.
2- My point there is that at this point Homura should realistically hold out at most a very faint hope of actually beating Walpurgisnacht. Therefore, presented with my plan either Canon or Renascene Homura should go for it.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
We're good to go.
And then Fate comes crashing in looking for her waifu.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
...hmm...I wonder if that's actually the case?
...well, we'll see...
Regardless of what constitutes a Happy End, a Golden End is a very specific thing in this quest. Discovering the criteria...well, give it time. It's still the first day.
I'll go ahead and say that Homura HAS tried taking everyone and running, just to save you guys the trouble of planning it out. She was desperate at that point, and chose to put her most precious people (and their families) first, even if they would hate her for it. It would, if it had worked, been a Normal End at best.
It didn't work, though, for reasons that you may eventually discover. For now, however...the memory is locked down. You can unlock it as soon as Homura stumbles across a reason to recall it IC...probably worth the cost, I'll add.
The biggest tip I have for the omake is you need to keep in mind how it's absolutely tearing Homura apart what she has to do. And not just outwardly, or even with her inner thoughts. Homura suppresses and buries her sorrows something terrible. It's all subconscious. It doesn't ever bubble to the surface in a way she'll recognize, but it needs to bubble to the surface in a way the reader will recognize.
Imagine Homura with the mindset of Gendo Ikari from Evangelion. Heck, he destroyed the entire world just to get his wife back. Obsessive, "no cost is too high" is right up his alley.
Plotting for a Gendo-type is basically: There is always a contingency plan, but very rarely will you actually need to use it. Dance, puppets, dance!
Got it. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Specific proof?
Do keep in mind that the memory that gave her a breakdown was a happy one, and one that Canon!Homura would not have had.
Walpurgisnacht, from Homura's knowledge is absolutely not invincible, as she's seen it taken down before. The only problem is that she's never been able to take it down without/before Madoka forms a contract, which is unacceptable to her. Moreover, there is a logical purpose to defeating Walpurgisnacht: If it can be beaten without Madoka forming a contract, then there is nothing making it necessary for Madoka to form a contract.
Sayaka's reasoning for becoming a Magical Girl:
1) Witches exist, feed on people, and need to be fought against.
2) Mami fought against them (and, usually, died before Sayaka formed a contract).
2a) Mami cared about the people she was protecting and wasn't selfish.
3) Magical Girls like Homura only care about themselves, not the people they are protecting.
3a) Therefore, those Magical Girls are not actually protecting people.
4) Since people need to be protected from Witches, I have the opportunity and a Wish I want fulfilled, and I will actually be protecting people instead of being selfish, I should become a Magical Girl.
That she didn't realize she'd be sticking her soul in a rock and risked becoming the very creature she fought is not a mark against her.
Sayaka is a victim of fraud. By inverting your reasoning, a significant number of people over 20 are no more intelligent than a 14-year-old girl.
Because we do think Walpurgisnacht can be beaten. In fact, we know it can! The issue is the cost.
"Obviously magical acts in public and on TV that can't be hidden." Really, making Magical Girls known is a pretty easy feat when you're talking about girls who can summon arbitrarily large numbers of firearms, giant spears, and can pull an aircraft carrier out of her shield.
From Sayaka's internal point of view, knowing that if she fails her friends and family will die is all the more reason to fight better. And if you happen to be right, and Sayaka does treat the world like anime, then she'll believe that, because the heroes always win when their loved ones are on the line, they'll win this time.
"I won't let that happen." Not to mention that Sayaka would probably not like it if we're deliberately pushing her emotional buttons like that.
You're advocating taking only the people we immediately care about and running away to safety while a force of nature butchers thousands of people. That's pretty damn close to villainous, and saying "It's for your own good" isn't going to help anyone's perception.
We're still on Day 1. We haven't even gone to sleep yet, it's Day 1, Loop 1, and you're saying we don't have the time to do anything. IIRC, there are several statements (of more or less ambiguity) about bringing people 'back' through loops with us; certainly, our conversation with Kyouko implies that it's possible for them to 'remember' things.
... A week? Each loop lasts a month and a half.
You said that instead of trying to 'protect' everyone she tried to kill the Witch instead. Therefore, my point stands - Mami will go after Walpurgisnacht and attempt to kill it.
Hear it, and probably dismiss it.
IF Mami is convinced. First failure point.
Per Kyouko's Memory Access:
You run the risk of Kyouko snapping that yes, she has been a hypocrite for the past year, that she does care, and fuck you for getting in her way. She cares about Mitakihara, she cares about Kazamino, and she will fight this Witch to the death.
Again, per Memory Access:
Kyouko will stay behind to defend her friends if she thinks it's necessary.
I'm inclined to agree, barring evidence to the contrary - but that doesn't mean we should go for a minimalist, "Well, technically speaking ..." "victory" either.
Homura's Golden Ending does not necessarily require her own survival.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
She's definitely someone we want to befriend, yes.
Even if we can't, it would probably help with Magical Theory quite a bit. And even if it's not as good in terms of raw power (which I think is disputable - some of the feats for magic are pretty ridiculous), it's certainly excellent in terms of options, as Flight, Teleportation and Summoning, and other esoteric skills are viable with Nanoha-verse magic.
And then there's the fact that since this is apparently post-A's, we might be able to get some DAB support ....
"You can't fight fate!"
"I'm fighting her right now!"
There are lots of reasons it might not have - I can think of a few 'general' reasons that can be broken down/made more specific for each character. I wonder if any of them are the same as you have planned ...? :sigh: One more item on the list ....
...
Has anyone actually made a list of all our goals and potential goals? I keep meaning to and never get around to it ....
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
A Golden Ending requires Homura to be alive.
Homura's Golden Ending does not require saving people outside the immediate environs of Mitakihara/Kasamino, except possibly insofar as any action that might affect all magical girls in existence.
Basically, seeing if we can exclude issues such as SAO (people all over Japan), Darker Than Black contractors all over the world, Log Horizon worldwide effects, and so forth.
Basically, seeing if we can exclude issues such as SAO (people all over Japan), Darker Than Black contractors all over the world, Log Horizon worldwide effects, and so forth.
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AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
Heh. Forceful Golden End via Homucifer transformation.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
A Golden Ending does not directly require saving people outside the immediate environs of Mitakihara/Kasamino, except possibly insofar as any action that might affect all magical girls in existence or the world/universe as a whole. This does not mean that she might not benefit from helping, or need to help individuals beyond the immediate environs in order to save those people within the immediate environs that she IS required to save.
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Interpretation question. Does this mean Homura must save EVERYONE in Mitakihara/Kasamino? That doesn't make any sense given how many people are being regularly fed on by witches!
Will edit response to Entropy Judge here.
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Entropy Judge:
1- Renascence Homura has gone on for WAY LONGER than canon Homura. We can infer by basic induction that she has likely bonded with not only Kyoko, but Mami and Sayaka over past timelines and formed enough of a bond as to be traumatised by their deaths. Without her 'shields', this would make things much worse.
Higure said eariler (paraphrasing) that the canon explanation for Renascence Homura is that she's a continuation of the original Homura who changed after all that time. That implies with probability she went through everything the original did, otherwise how could he say that he changed from the original's psyche?
2- We are discussing Renascence Homura with that particular point.
3- See Point 6.
4/5- Let's look at this logically, shall we? Sayaka should realise that she knows nothing about Magical Girls and how they work. So she should be a lot more careful before stepping into something that she doesn't understand!
Even ignoring that, Sayaka thought she could be a Hero in the style of Magical Girls in the stories. Wasn't this assumption rather irrational? How the hell was she supposed to justify it? I wouldn't judge a 14-year old over something like this, but we're explicitly arguing how smart she is by adult standards.
6- Higure established as a Red Truth earlier that Homura has failed to beat Walpurgisnacht in part because of her lack of knowledge of Crossover elements. I took this to mean that a team of Mami, Kyoko, Sayaka, and Homura cannot beat Walpurgisnacht.
In addition, if those four alone can beat Walpurgisnacht then this quest is going to be damned easy. Homura has more than enough knowledge and skills at this point to get a team of those four together!
7- We're dealing with the scrutiny of adults here. For all they know, we could be fraudulent! Just because we happen to be coming along with some controversial claims and have magic powers doesn't mean they'll believe us. Plus there has to be something blocking magical girls from trying this or somebody would have done it years ago!
8/9- This is the fast one I'm trying to pull over on Sayaka. You have hit the nail of the head, but I think we can make it that Sayaka won't.
Nobody explicitly spelled out to Sayaka that this isn't like TV. Backed with Akemi Madness, we argue something like:
"This isn't like TV! You can't just guarentee it won't happen! Magical girls don't suddenly double in strength just because their loved ones in danger! This is the real world! Like rescue workers, magical girls who are overly anxious do stupid things and get themselves killed. If we lose even one magical girl, we're beaten!
Realistically, we can only evacuate maybe ten people, tops! Of course we're going to choose those close to us! Not only is it only natural, but it will increase our chances of saving everybody!"
This is risky, but remember we have 40 Wordsmithing here! Plus I have a plan B, of course.
10- Even if you have the power to try and stop something, it doesn't make you a villain to run away because you're afraid for your own life- even if you let everybody else die. It makes you human.
Homura's motivation in my hypothetical is a lot more heroic than that, as she actually cares about other people.
11/12- On Day 3, Kyubey shows up and we're going to have our hands full unless we've managed to accomplish the feat of getting somebody to guard Madoka against Contracting. Since we haven't, that's going to cut a significant portion of our time. If we don't want Mami to die as per canon, even more.
Plus, since we have no long term plan, we have a major tendency to get sidetracked. How often have we really taken the initiative? We visited Sayaka, then did our best to exploit every opportunity Higure sent our way, but did not create a long term plan at any point.
Knowing us, this is going to continue to happen over the course of the month and a half unless we somehow all agree to a long term plan.
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For those keeping track, we've come to points that are less relevant thanks to Entropy Judge's backup plan.
13/15- My point was that Mami accepts you can't save everyone. She made a choice without doubt, after all, as I would expect of a veteran. If the battle is going grimly, we can ask her if she wants her last act as a hero to be to get her Kohais (speaking broadly) killed. Add Akemi Madness, and we're set.
14/16- Remember we have Time Stop here, and can easily have a few Grief Seeds spare. Given this, we have more time to argue. I would also factor for Akemi Madness, our Wordsmithing, and Mami Tomoe.
-Time Stop.
-"Look, I didn't want to say this earlier- but I admired the other you. Your reasoning was sound! Magic not used for yourself always leads to disaster! How could you of all people not see that?
I- I looked up to you! Once I wasted my wish, I saw you as the model of how to fix my life! I- I didn't want to meet you before because I- I wanted to wait until I wasn't embarassed even being near you! I- wanted to prove I was as badass as you are!"
Please! Kyoko! Don't do this!"
A pack of lies, but nobody can prove us wrong in the moment. Add tears, and fallacious though it is I think it would work by appealing to two emotions at once- sympathy and what remains of callousness.
17- The only friends Kyoko has amongst the canon cast in this scenario are Homura and Mami. Why should she care about the others?
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